just curious, how many duet players play ITM on a duet?.

I play a few slow airs, but, apart from my level of competence, which would rule them out, I feel that the faster jigs and reels do not suit.
Better players may consider otherwise.

- John Wild

Both of them.

Well, it depends on what you consider genuine Irish, and how fast it has to be played to be Traditional

But I do play Irish tunes on my 46-key Hayden Duet, both alone and with a small Celtic/Old-Timey band.
I play "Star of the County Down" pretty fast, and others I play are Hewlett, Bronwan's Dream, Willie's Drowned in Yarrow, and the like.

There are some fast jigs where some sections I just pound out chords (Am and G mostly), and other spots I play along the melody.

As far as keeping up with serious ITM players in a session, I'd be scared stiff and lost. However, I think a good Duet player who knows the tunes well could certainly keep up -- maybe throw in a few extraneous bellows reversals just so the audience thinks he has an Anglo

But I consider that yes, I play ITM on my Duet. In fact, I discovered ITM and contradance music in the process of learning to play my duet.
--Mike K.

Well, yes I have. I do play the Crane in a ceilidh band, and have played jigs for the local rapper sword dance team. I normally play in a supporting role for a fiddle player, but I can lead some tunes. Whether it would be acceptable to ITM experts is another thing - I personally think it all comes out sounding like Morris music!

I mainly play song accompanyments, but there's no reason why the duet couldn't be used for ITM, if you work at it. I know people who mainly use the anglo for song accompanyment who would have trouble using it for ITM.

Andrew

What I'm really wondering is how many people play irish music on a duel "well", but that's an entirely different topic I guess

get me one, and i'll do it!

english is next on my list. all i need is a few thousand bucks to get one. i got to try an english the other day, one of greg jowaisas'. it was nice! pipes might be ahead of it, in line. so, all i need is the money to get some pipes, then the money to get an english, and then the money to get a duet.

ok. give me ten years. then, if i remember, and i actually can pull it off, i'll post sound clips.

How many people play X type of music well on a type Y concertina is a pretty subjective question -- hard to answer, especially for your own self.

But I guess one could find the answer to the orginal question by sitting in on an ITM session with their concertina (of whatever type) and getting a pretty good idea of how well they could stay with the group. And the group members may well offer some, er, answers.

Likewise I guess the answer to "can I play Morris dances well" would be to play for a dance group (and count how many swords end up thru your bellows?

Basically, you can't be sure how well you play till you play with others.
--Mike K.

I would actually disagree with it. I see what you mean, but playing at sessions would not generally fit my perception of good music.
A good musician is the one, who plays well alone. Esp. on self accompanying instrument like Duet.
I think though, that since Anglo has cought up with Irish music so much, and Duets are so rare, I would doubt you can find anyone significant with Duet in Irish tradition. Looks like people who pick up Duets, want more freedom, more variety, more keys than Irish trad demands. English is the tool for amateurs, who want to follow in any key, but who really don't care about been authentic or "real", and it's the choice simply because of availability. Many would have gone with Duets, it seems, have they known about them.

English is the tool for amateurs, who want to follow in any key, but who really don't care about been authentic or "real", and it's the choice simply because of availability. Many would have gone with Duets, it seems, have they known about them.
[/quote]


What is authentic and what is ''real''. I would like to know what I don't really care about.
Ah the things people say on forums....

Since in my opinion, and by my practice (I've chosen English myself) I (and in my perception those Irish players on the English) don't care about been real or authentic, the answer is "Who cares?". If you don't care about it, it's totally irrelevant, and the question is futile.
Now if you did care about it, then you should ask people, who are perceived as "authentic" and "real".
I guess, if you play your English, trying to be as punchy as Anglo player, you are not real. If you play 30 button Anglo as opposed to 20 button cheap German one, you are not authentic. Or it can be said, if you play Irish music, but is not Irish yourself, not from Ireland, and don't speak Irish, you may not be very authentic.
I think it should be relevant to Irish, just as Yiddish tradition must be relevant to Ashkenazi Jews. But for people who just happened to like Klezmer or Irish, it may not be relevant.
Am I making myself clear?

isn't "duelling" for banjos?

My very limited experience of sessions is, many people playing the same tune for several verses, exactly the same way each time thru. I agree, that's not my definition of good music. But maybe there were differences each time, jsut too sublte for me to pick up, what with several isntruments going at once.

I'll amend that to read: A good musician is someone whom people would like to lsiten to as s/he plays alone. Certainly a Duet should be a complete performance in itself, a one-man band, and a good player should be a delight to listen to, long after a solo palyer on a non-duet concertina would have bored the listeners.

I'll second that. Freedom and variety are what I live for in music.

And had Duets been available at reasonable prices. Well, I guess Cranes are, and even Maccans. It's hard to believe that all those Salvation Army boxes are actually in frequent use.

You'll probalby hear from ltos of ENglish players about their "amateur" and "inauthentic" instrument ...

On the original topic -- I'm amazed there haven't been dozens of replies to the question of playing ITM on a Duet (or ENglish, or anything else that doesn't change pitch when you reverse the squeeze).

Anyway, to reiterate, yes I do play Irish tunes on my Hayden Duet. --Mike K.

the duet offers many options for irish music.
1,right hand only[similiar to some bc button accordions]
2.right hand mainly but with use of overlapping left unison notes,either for easier fingering,or for unison double stops or other ornamentation.
3.right hand mainly. but use of octave playing of the tune[creating a similiar sound to two Sliabh luchra fiddlers
4.standard duet type approach,left hand chordal accompaniment,right hand melody.
5.melody with occasional basses [similiar to Irish anglo players].
I have only messed with the Crane superficially,but it seems ideally suited for ITM,as G and D are relatively easy.
and a lot of ornamentation falls under the stronger index and middle fingers .Dick Miles

I hadn't responded because it seemed that the poster was keen on "ITM" which to me means "exactly the way they play it in Ireland". Sure, I play lots of Irish tunes on my duet, but not in any "authentic" Irish style. Of course most people in the USA can't tell the difference... but I hadn't responded because the poster seemed so exacting. Maybe that's why the other duet players here haven't chimed in?

-- Rich --

I find, when playing at sessions, that when someone starts an Irish tune I lose interest and start to think about refilling my glass or emptying my bladder. I play the Hayden Duet and consider the strengths of the instrument and the demands of ITM to be antithetical to each other. I've tried things like doing "DADGAD" stuff with my left hand, but there's really no solution I've found as to what to do with your left hand when playing music where chords are as inappropriate as they are in many ITM tunes.

Like Rich, I play the Irish tunes that have found their way into the American contradance repertoire (usually, I suspect, because unlike many traditional Irish tunes, they DO lend themselves to chordal accompaniment).

.no thats not my opinion,I think players should be free to play how they like.
I play English Concertina,and could not be accused of copying anyone elses style,my playing is instantly recognisable,I do not wish to sound like a copy of Noel Hill or anyone else,as far as I am concerned,The priority is making ITM danceable,after that variety of ornamentation and style is the more varied the merrier.and whats this tosh about being exacting.Dick Miles

Being exacting seems to me to be one of the things ITM is about - and exactly *that* style. When *I* play traditional Irish dance tunes the "hard-core" Irish players cold-shoulder me, turn their backs, suggest that I "listen awhile" before I try to play.... I don't know what Irish sessions are like where you live, but the hard-core ones here all play tunes at break-neck speed all identically - not only note-for-note, but often right down to the exact ornament. That's pretty exacting in my book. And they're not very tolerant of anyone playing chords, harmony, improvising or playing a tune more than three times through.

As for danceable, it depends upon the dance? Rare is the time that we'll have a "real" Irish group play at one of our contradances... but when they do... the dance suffers greatly. It's usually played too fast and sounds very flat and thin. Then again I would imagine a typical contra band from New England would sound fat and heavy, with a "annoying" backbeat, and boring (one tune for 20 minutes - or at the most a medley of 3?) to dancers in Ireland. And yet these are the same tunes... just played differently. Different strokes for different folks.......

What is your definition of "ITM"?

-- Rich --

Al,

You've quoted chiton1 as saying this (below), but it was said by Misha (who else! ) in the post above it, and chiton1 was only quoting him, so you might want to correct it?

Regards,

Stephen


QUOTE (HallelujahAl! @ Aug 10 2008, 10:38 PM)
QUOTE (chiton1 @ Aug 9 2008, 10:00 PM)
English is the tool for amateurs, who want to follow in any key, but who really don't care about been authentic or "real", and it's the choice simply because of availability. Many would have gone with Duets, it seems, have they known about them.



Ah, what the heck, this just ain't worth responding to!



>>Yes, sorry, my mistake for misquoting - apols to chiton1 and misha - you're wrong! Thanks for pointing out my mistake Stephen. AL>>





--------------------

Stephen

Kilkee, Co. Clare, Ireland

http://www.concertina.com/chambers/

rich,
hard to define,because it shares many of the same tunes as the scots and english.
I play alot of sliabh luchra music[ polkas slides]for dancing.[in donegal they play alot of highlands,I donteven have one in my repertoire]
I agree there are alot of pedantic prats playing irish music[got to www.session org and you cant escape them] and half of them never play for dancing,
but in Ireland[in my experience] people are much more relaxed about it.when I play out,I try to vary the evening by playing a mixture of tempos, jigs, slides, Reels,Hornpipes,slip jigs,polkas,and try to play at good dancing speed, reels metronome 100 to 105,many people play reels in sessions at 110 upwards,as Johnny Oleary said the musicans have to have for pairs of hands and the dancers two pairs of feet.oh yes and I like harmony.

You are making yourself clear. And you are right in the sense that I do not care to be authentic, I just want to play I like best (whatever it is). And to be honest, authentic is harder and harder to find these days. Irish music is not genetically passed on, most Irish citizens do not speak Irish anymore, and many of them prefer country, rock, classical or whatever music to their own traditional music (like everywhere). Times are changing and so is the cultural setting for ''traditional'' music (same here in Brittany).
And I do not want to copy ITACM either but want to make music that sounds Irish, that has an Irish feel to it. But it will also have some of my own in it as well. As I am immersed in Irish music for quite some time I think I understand and feel Irish music better than many native Irishmen. But what the hell; I play what I love best (and what I can) and sometimes when I am at my best I move people (even Irishmen), and that's to everybody's satisfaction.

Thanks, David -- nice ot hear another Hayden Duet player confirm my suspicions. ISTR that at the last NCW, when the Anglo session got going in the dinig room, we Duetists ended up out in the lounge listening to Mme. Caroline playing Quebecois tuens on her lovely 3-row melodeon (distantly related to a Duet, after all).

If I try to play the melody in the RH, I am grateful not to have to use the LH at all

That pretty well covers the Irish tunes I play by myself, and that we play in the small band. SOme of them use only Aminor and G, but on the really fast ones I play just chords. Since the band includes a bass and a guitar, we naturally stick to tunes with well-defined harmonies.

One neat thing about the Duet -- if the rest of the band failed to show up for a gig, you could theoretically handle it yourself (just don't ask me to sing). --Mike K.

Not sure if "The Mountains of Mourne" qualifies as ITM, probably not. "Scotland the Brave" works great on my duet although clearly not ITM.

Mostly I find myself playign what sounds like cartoon sound tracks. Recently I was asked to learn and play "squeezebox" by the Who (alos not ITM).

So my answer would have to be "no", but then again I don't play any ITM on any instrument, maybe someday I will.

Next Saint Paddy's I'm playing "Wearing of the Green" though I might use my Irish Bouzouki for that.