Hello,

This is for C/G anglo concertina. I learned a bunch of techniques last week with classes with Tim Collins and slowly relearning everything I know/play and changing my whole approach. But anyway there's one thing I'd like to know. I've been told how to roll the notes on the left hand, by using (most of the time) the D/E and C/B button on the C row on the right side. But can someone tell me how you'd roll higher notes you can only play on the right side? Like the high G for example? Is there an equivalent technique?

Also, Tom Lawrence has posted this clip ages ago:

Clip

Can someone tell me what he does with the high G in "Down the Broom", especially the first time he rolls it? There's an extra note in there, as if some note was cut.

Any help appreciated, as I forgot to ask the teacher and won't see him before november

[quote name='Azalin' date='Jul 27 2008, 10:42 PM' post='75859']
Hello,



hi, az.....

i can only tell you what i do with higher notes, which is....

a) slap triplet calibrated as a slap roll (slap ornaments sometimes sound like triplets, sometimes sound like four-note rolls. when i'm lucky, i can calibrate at will, when i'm not, i don't care, because if i only pop out a triplet, it sounds ok anyhow IMHO.....

same-note triplet with a cut in the mix (sometimes this is called a half-roll): note-cut-note-note, or note-note-cut-note. you can cut the high push-g with the push b next to it. you can cut the high pull g on the top row (which i use constantly), with the high pull b on the middle row. for what note to choose, the only rule is, how does it sound?

c) plain old same-note triplet: chris droney does this and it sounds great. john williams, especially on his first self-titled cd, the one with micho russell, martin hayes & a bunch of old clare tunes, does it a lot & it sounds great....

d) triplet using a) the note, b)same note an octave lower, or a lower arpeggio note of its chord, c) the note once more

e) triplet using a) the note, note above OR below it within the tune's key scale, c) back to the note

f) make it into just one note as a double stop (octave, fifth, third, fourth, depending on what sounds good). an interval of a second, obviously, will note sound good, unless you are playing bebop concertina!

f) last but not least: just play the note once with no ornament. once you get up to speed, the ornament will not seem to be missing. this choice applies to other potential ornament moments, and gets neglected. the listener's ear needs a break once in a while. in visual art, the term for constant busy space-filling is "horreur vacui." horreur vacui is rampant in postmodern irish concertina ornamentation, and it's nice to remember that the tune sounds more elegant if sometimes a roll or triplet opp is forgone......dympna o'sullivan's playing is great about this. she uses rolls & triplets but sometimes she just plays the note and moves on....then the listener's ear welcomes the next roll or triplet in a less jaded way....if you listen to the "kitchen sessions" segment in doolin with terry bingham on concertina, when he is playing very fast with other musicians for dance sets, he seems not to be tripleting or anything at all, and he still sounds great. i usually roll or something, but i like to try to remember---sometimes, less is more.

Thanks cee,

I will definitely experiment with all this. I am using "double stops" already but never really tried cutting a note in the middle as you're doing. I tried it last night to try to mimic Tom's phrase, I think this is what he might be doing with his high G.

The thing is, if I sometimes want to play rolls with lower notes the way I've been taught, using the middle row buttons on the right side, I would like to having something equivalent on the right side but so far it seems there's no such thing...

one thing you can do with the high g on your g row,is this,play a fake roll, five notes G then next button up on right same direction,then g,then still on your g row first button left same direction,then g.
or alternatively a four note twiddle two semi quavers two quavers,in jig time,using your melody note then button above in same row,same direction,then melody note,thenmelody note
.what is most important is the effect[and staying in the same direction for the roll or twiddle] not necessarily the notes you use.
for example a b roll,on the c row might be played BDBAB[THE D IS ON THE PULL].whereas on an english concertina ,I might play it BC#BAB,because I find it easier.
in my opinion,the important thing with rolls or four note twiddles,is to keep the direction the same,when rolls are played on the fiddle they are generally executed with one bow stroke,this gives a certain effect.

it depends how adventurous you wish to be
there is a technique that I use on the English,whereby I play two notes of the same pitch but play one as if it was a grace note,using cross fingering so the effect is legato,there is no reason why ,if the player wished that this technique could not be used on the anglo.[youwould have to possibly adjust your fingering],you have also got left hand duplicate g/aon your c row and g row,which can be used [if desired]as a unison twiddle.

BTW, anybody knows what's going on with Tom Lawrence?
He took off all of his playing clips from his websites, I thought he's going to produce a CD or something of this sort, but it's been silent for awile. His playing is awesome, and I'd like to lay my hands of is, so to speak. It'll be a pity, if such great player will vanish in the mirk of self-enjoynment.
Thanks.

A couple of the tunes Tom had on his web site ended up on the Anglo International CD; maybe that's why. As for the ornament - I've never learned a way to roll that high G. For the A on that tune, I'll cut it with the button above and then do a triplet A-A-A with alternating fingers, which I could probably translate to the G on the C row with some practice. On Tom's clip, it sounds like the G is cut by the B above it (if I'm listening to the one you mean).

Edit: Gah, I haven't figured out the threading thing, sorry if this is showing up in a weird place.

Thanks, it's all good stuff to experiment with.

You can view thread the "classical" way in thread options, I reverted to the old way, this grouped-reply thingy was too confusing for me.

I'd like to lay may hands on it...
Sorry for the stupid typos.

Hi Ceemonster
Any detail of the 'kitchen sessions in Doolin' with Terry Bingham?
Cheers
Mike

Get the Mad for Trad Niall Vallely tutorial and he demonstrates how to do a really useful RH roll. I use so much now it's hard to imagine not having it.

michael, the "kitchen sessions" is a series archived for listening or download at clarefm.ie.....scroll down to the one in doolin.

About that one, do you slap the left side of the concertina instead of the right side, when playing a high note on the right side? I imagine it would be hard to slap the same side you're playing a note on.

Love it! As well as being a very nice performance, that is an excellent recording to learn from. The left-hand/right-hand separation is wonderful. If you listen on headphones with the left and right channels swapped (i.e. put the headphones on backwards) you get a real feeling for playing it yourself.

-jim

Another must have Iif you haven't already) is a cd slower-down - have a lok at Roni Amazing Slower-Down.
You will be able to hear the ornaments better on cds by slowing the track down, although it won't tell you the fingering.
Practise your scales in either direction and use three or four note snippets on a single direction for fast or awkward bits.
Also handy for moving the pitch on cds.

Thanks but it's really not a case of slowdown. I've trained my ear for years now and don't really notice a difference between fast and slow, my brain is used to separate all notes and memorize them whatever the speed. But I'm simply wondering which button he presses and when/how. I think Ceemonster is close to the answer, but I wish Tom himself would come back from the dead and help me out :-) Frankly, he's one of the best amateur player I've heard on the internet. Also, he doesnt post videos of himself playing on Youtube, that's a good sign ;-)