Well, this thread is for those like me who think the top of the top "concertina-reeded" concertina makers are Suttner and Dipper. If you don't agree, move along, there's nothing to see here :-)

I had the chance to try Suttners and Dippers in the past few years, as recently as last week. We talk a lot about Dipper and Suttner being both amazing makers, but I've never seen a thorough comparison between the two? Taboo? Impossible to compare? Maybe, but I'm still looking for answers. I havent played them enough to notice subtle differences. The most obvious difference I've noticed so far is weight, the Suttners seemed to be more heavy than the Dippers I tried. From what I remember, action and sound were both as amazing on both, but as I said, I didnt have enough time to try *and* I'm not an advanced player enough to notice subtlelties.

It seems many professional musicians with CDs own Suttners, like Tim Collins and Michael O'Rahilly to name a few. Does that mean anything? Oh and please, I'm talking pure "technical" here, it's not about "any concertina can sound good in the hands of a great player", it's more about the instrument's "raw technical potential".

Any input from people who had the chance to compare, or own both, greatly appreciated.

Az, at some level the 'which is better' becomes meaningless. What sound do you like? You mentioned Suttner players. Claire Keville plays a Dipper and so do others. Some play Wheatstones, some play Jeffries.

Buying a good instrument you need to sit down with your options and play, play play. Listen, let someone else play and listen from outside the room. That sort of thing. Then decide what's for you, nobody else can do it for you.

I know, Peter, but I'm still curious about the differences. If you read carefully I did not ask "Which is the best instrument", I'd like to know what differs from each of them. By the way I did try Claire's concertina at the Dipper's in England last november, that's an awesome privilege :-)

Thing of it is, Colin and Rosalie don't really make standard models. They basically make to the customer's requirement. They have some basic models, like the County Clare or the Shantyman, but they will usually be heavily customised. And then you have total one-offs like my Dipper C/G baritone. I don't think there are better concertinas made anywhere, or anywhen come to that. That's not to say somebody might no equal them (there are some damn fine Jeffries out there, and Diskinson/Wheatstones as well), just that you won't get better.

I haven't handled a Suttner for some years, but those I have handled were very nice instruments, made by a fine craftsman. Whether they currently equal Dippers for quality I cannot say, but I'm not sure that it's a particularly productive argument to have. People who play Suttners, I suspect, will be happy people. Why set up an artificial opposition?

Chris

Some like chocolate and some like vanilla but everyone likes ice cream.

Not all instruments by the same maker will sound or feel the same. There is also set up to consider. An instrument that has had the reeds newly tuned and voiced with fresh pads, valves etc will sound better than it did before that work. At the top end of instruments, the only way to have a good sense of quality is to compare individual instruments side by side. Even then, you would be mistaken to assume that all the instruments by the same maker would respond the same.

Every player and situation also has differing needs.

One of the things I look for in an instrument aside from tone, action and airtightness is how wide a dynamic range it has and how evenly the reeds speak. Do they all start at the same time and do they all stop at the same time. I hate it when I get very quiet and one note will stop playing before all the others. That's even worse than if they all stop too soon. Even very good instruments have that problem. It can be corrected. Still it's time consuming, fussy and technical work, it's only something that I need for solo or recording work. I don't care as much if I'm playing a dance or session.

it isn't an artificial opposition. no one was suggesting a slapdown. anyone who has played both makes at some length, will have a take on relative strengths or just relative traits, such as tone, etc. the dippers may be superb at custom work, but it is ridiculous to pretend that their instruments do not have characteristic traits.....from my own experience with dippers and from what i've heard over and over from others, one would be, this make is known for a superb responsiveness that is a product of button action, bellows & reeds. you hear this again and again about dippers, not that individual cases mightn't vary. i have no playing acquaintance with suttners, but i have been very taken with the voice of the suttner (if it is a suttner) on dympna o'sullivan's cd. i didn't car for it on first listen and now i'm crazy about it. my dipper, which i adore, sounds nothing like this, and i must say i also love the sound of that suttner. this is a concertina forum and it would seem to be natural and helpful especially at the prices and waits for these instruments to solicit impressions with the caveat that such things are subjective. and yes, there does seem to be a taboo about discussing it.

and tim collins told me about a year ago that he was on the wait list for a "B" dipper, for playing with pipes.

OK, the defining characteristic of a Dipper? Well, to miss-coin a phrase, "It's the reeds. stupid!". Set the wonderful craftmanship of Colin's wood and metal work on one side, together with Rosalie's beautiful bellows. The magic in a Dipper is in the reeds. Actually, this is true of any really good concertina, IMHO, but there is no question in my mind that Dipper reeds are superb. And he can make them (to come back to the customisation bit again) with all sorts of sounds: with a honk comparable to a very good Jeffries, or with a much more gentle sound as in the Shanteyman, or deeply rich and mellow as in my baritone.

If this sounds like a panegyric on Dipper concertinas, well, so be it. They are wonderful concertinas. Can someone do the same for Suttners and Dickinsons ? As I say, I haven't played enough of either to do it, though I once owned a really lovely Dickinson.

Chris

Yep, thanks, I was about to give up :-) I made it clear in my first post I didnt want this discussion to be "philosophical" but it seems this is what it was turning into anyway.

Do you know why most CDs seem to be recorded with Suttners these days? Maybe there's some characteristic to it that makes it more appropriate for recording?

I'd suspect that the CDs you're talking about are mostly (if not entirely) Irish?

In which case the explanation may be simply that, since he started building concertinas, the Irish market has always been targeted by Jürgen Suttner, who visits here every year and does festival workshops on repair etc.

On the other hand, I don't think Colin Dipper has ever visited Ireland and most players here are not very aware of him, and have never even seen one of his instruments.

personally ,I think the best concertinas are dickinson wheatstones,he is in my opinion,the best at setting up the action.someone commented on my delicate playing,well to play like that,the instrument has to be set up properly,and I would not be able to acheive what I want to, without an expert setting the instrument up so that it is ultra responsive
my own instruments are vintage wheatstones,set up by Dickinson.
both Suttner and Dipper and Dickinson make very good instruments,it is just a question of personal preference,what a pointless question.Dick Miles

I think what's really pointless here is this kind of response. I have been very clear in my first post about what I'm asking, why is it so hard to understand? I want to know the technical differences between the two instruments, but instead I'm being preached music playing philosophy.

Thanks Stephen, that's a very good explanation. It's interesting, I would have thought Dipper would have been more present in Ireland since he's so close and is english, but it's the other way around.

Conversely, if you look at CDs by Harry Scurfield, Keith Kendrick, Will Duke, Bertram Levy and Emmanuel Pariselle, to name the first five that come immediately to mind, you will find Dippers in action. None of them remotely Irish, either in origin or music, so I think you're right, Stephen.

I don't think the Dippers have ever needed to target particular markets - they've always had as much work as they can handle from people coming to them. (That's not an implied aspersion on Jurgen, BTW, he started making rather later).

Chris

It simply means Suttner has better taste: he prefers irish music!

And that is definitely a matter of opinion!

I was going to put that a little more... ahem, "delicately"!

I did put the smiley for a reason, I was just kidding... kind of... :-)

Azalin,all Suttners and Dippers will vary
I had a Suttner in my possesion which was not as good or as loud as a Connors/ Wheatstone,likewise Ihave had a couple of Jeffries that were not as good as the suttner.
what is it that makes an instrument[regardless of make, special],well,1. quality of steel used in reeds, 2.type of wood that is used for the sound board.3.type of wood used for ends,or even type of metal [steel will be diferent slightly from aluminium].4.size of hole in sound board.
I would imagine there are other factors as well,what is it that makes the best jeffries so distinctive/loud,is it the thickness or length of the reed?or is it the quality of the steel?or is it all three?
.personally ,I think getting hung up on a makers name is a mistake,every maker will make instruments that vary in quality,the same is true of guitars,not every Martin is wonderful.
I prefer to listen to a concertina,not knowing its make,and decide by sound,then I want to play the instrument to feel the action etc,I am not keen on lachenal butterfly bellows,although that is probavbly because I am not used to them.

And several people including myself are trying to explain you're asking for what are essentially totally subjective observations. If you want a useful comparison between the two you will have to sum up your own criteria to yourself and sit down and play to see which instrument comes closest to what you are looking for.

Allright but I live in a city where no one has a Suttner or a Dipper, and the odds that I will ever be able to sit down and compare a Suttner and a Dipper at the same time are pretty thin. That's why I'm looking for any inputs, subjective or not, comparing the two instruments. I'm not asking which one sounds better. The fact that the Suttner is heavier than the Dipper equivalent is a good example of what I'm looking for. Now, I thought it would be easier to get some information here, on a concertina forum, instead of waiting for the 0.0001% odds I'll ever get a chance to compare myself.

Even when I come across people (once a year at most) who have both, in the same room, I feel very uncomfortable to ask to try the instrument, especially when you need to adjust the straps etc. It will be even harder to ask two different persons if I can compare the instruments side by side for a few minutes.

Also, I don't mind subjective input. I'm smart enough to analyze different subjective inputs and try to filter useful information from it. I'm also on Dipper's waiting list and want a Dipper and nothing else, for some subjective reasons of my own, so it's not as if I were going to base any purchase decision on the information I'm going to get here.

If it's any consolation (though it's probably no help at all to you), I doubt if many people (anywhere) have ever had the opportunity to compare them, side-by-side...

what would be useful here would be to understand what makes a good concertina.
I understand that the best Wheatstone aeoles had longer reeds,is this true?
now we all know different variety of wood has different sound,for example, spruce on a guitar will sound different from Cedar,IF a concertina maker,used plywood for a sound board,would it sound as good as lets say maple/sycamore or a natural wood that is going to improve with age .
will the size of the concertina and the size of the hole in the sound board affect the acoustics?
we know that the there is a difference in sound produced by metal and wooden ended concertinas . some people believe that the best reeds in vintage concertinas,were all made by one man,now was that the quality of the steel or because the reed maker had some technique,that other reed makers didnt,or was it both?.
some people believe that a lighter concertina can be made using alloy reed frames[well thats fine as long as the concertina doesnt get wet]this might explain the difference in weight.
even the amount of fretwork on the end of a concertina can alter the acoustic sound allowing more air toexit from the ends.Dick Miles

Well, I've no idea about Jurgen Suttner's taste in music; however I think I now have a good idea of yours.

Chris

Very interesting, thanks for the info!

my subjective, inexpert opinion:

I've owned a very nice C/G Dipper for almost four years, "customized" and "set up" for Irish music as spec'd by the guy I bought it from - new condition.

I've not played any other top level concertinas on any kind of consistent basis, but have experienced a couple other Dippers, two Jeffries, and last fall a very nice Suttner belonging to a professional player. The major difference between my Dipper and the Suttner (other than the sound) was the button shape, length, and travel. The Dipper buttons are a good 1/4 inch beyond the surface with an 1/8 to 5/32 of travel. The Suttner buttons were maybe 5/32 beyond, more rounded, with less travel. Made for a completely different playing experience. I had a couple of tunes on the Suttner and didn't really get comfortable, but it was obviously a great instrument. I believe that these button/action details can be specified on any custom order instrument, providing you know what you want.

About the same time I was able to play a nice Jeffries belonging to a young Irish woman and she played my Dipper. I thought the Suttner had a very similar feel to the Jeffries. Doesn't Mr. Suttner model his instruments on Jeffries? In any event the young woman put her finger on the only enduring question I've had about the Dipper: its noisy. As in "pad slap" after you get off the note. you can minimize the "pad slap" sound if you play with a light touch and don't snap your fingers off the buttons after pushing them all the way in, and I've worked hard at this. But the Jeffries and Suttner did not seem to have this issue. Does any one else notice this about Dippers or other concertinas?

This being said, I would not have traded the Dipper for any of these other instruments. It sounds glorious. Four years on it just gets better and better. I consider myself extremely fortunate to have been able to buy it when it came up. The only other concertina (recordings or live) that I thought sounded as good or better was Claire Keville's on the U-Tube clip of Port Hole of the Kelp. I had always assumed that she was playing a Jeffries, but earlier in this thread Peter Laban says she plays a Dipper. Is it a Dipper in this clip?

Anyway, I hope this is the kind of information you are looking for, Azalin. I'd be grateful for any comments on the pad slap thing.

John

Can you provide the link?
I only found her playing with the fiddler and it's difficult to make concertina sound out of the blend.
It's always nice to see/hear what people mean, when they say "sound is glorious". And I'm surprised about clicking pads. Pads shouldn't click, end of story. Have you tried to "rough" them up a little? May be it's time to replace them then?
If those cajun accordion's pads don't click, why tiny concertina pads, that are not lifted much, do?

You could vastly improve the odds of playing a Suttner, Dipper, Jeffries, Dickinson Wheatstone, etc. in one place if you'd partake of events like Kilve, Witney, NE Squeeze-In and the NE Concertina Workshops. While I haven't been to any events in the UK, I think most (if not ALL) the NESI and NCW events have had all the above concertinas there at the same time.

-- Rich --

PS: In response to your "the top of the top "concertina-reeded" concertina makers are Suttner and Dipper" consideration.... I've played a few Suttners and many more Dippers. Both makers' concertinas had considerable quality differences making the boxes hard to compare.... but for the type of music *I* like to play my vote for the best quality concertina maker goes to Steve Dickinson of Wheatstone.

Yep, it's all subjective...

Chris

Edited to add PS: Back when I started playing concertina there were just two makers of instruments using traditional reeds, viz, the Dippers and Steve Dickinson. At that time I said in the FAQ that I wouldn't want to choose between them for quality. I've let the statement stand in the intervening years and I will continue to do so, but I've had further thoughts. There are a lot more Dippers around than Dickinson/Wheatstones. The Dippers have done their level best to meet the demand and have always tried to balance their prices between what they could get and what they need to live on. I have a lot of time for them as people. I think there is more to being a good make than just being skillful with your fingers.

Pssst....you do know that you make your own brand of concertinas, right?
I know it's an apples/oranges thing, but you can still stick up for the home team a bit.

Rich,

I'm sure you're right about the American events (and maybe I'll find out someday, now that I've an American girlfriend!), but I'm not sure about there being many so many Suttners in England these days, though maybe there are...

Anybody?

I presume you mean this one, from 2006?

In which case that is a Jeffries she's playing. She only got her Dipper (which has wooden ends) this year.

It would be really useful if us concertina makers understood what made a really good concertina. We wouldn't bother making anything else! Sadly it isn't an exact science as yet. Consequently, while the really good makers will make their average instrument better than somebody's with less talent/ experience, they still have variations between their instruments that are hard to explain. Certainly attention to detail especially in the reeds counts, but you will find great concertinas with both loose and close fitting reeds ( within reason ) and mediocre concertinas with quite good reeds in them. Individual pieces of wood vary enough to make or break a concertina at the higher levels, and just because one type of laminated wood makes terrible reed pans, doesn't mean all laminated reed pans are inferior. For each type of concertina be it Dipper, Suttner, Jeffries, Wheatstone or whatever, You might say there is an ideal where they are at their maximum of responsiveness, range of volume, clarity of tone... Everything comes together in one instrument, but to the naked eye and even in dimensions, they might seem identical to much poorer instruments. What makes the difference? Those who know aren't telling.

Neither Colin or Jurgen's instruments are more uniform in my experience than the other. Colin doesn't make copies of other instruments while Jugen has both Wheatstone and Jeffries models. The tone difference is a matter of taste period. Stephen Is likely in the know about the Ireland concertina scene, but I expect waiting time has a lot to do with it. Jurgen's wait is shorter and his output is higher. New players are more likely to have a good Suttner to play before they turn grey, and their concertina heros are more and more playing them since they do the job admirably. Given the circumstances, they will end up dominating the market.

Speculation about what makes a good concertina is all well and good, but unless you get it from Colin or Jurgen's mouth, Speculation is all it is. I can speak with moderate authority about my own instruments, but not theirs. The most knowledgeable people I know don't have all the answers.
Dana

Colin told be he still has a three years waiting list, I've been on it for some time, and Suttner is supposed to be four years... Maybe Dipper takes longer for less standard models?

Suttners aren't common over here either but they do crop up from time to time. In fact we have one for sale in our shop right now (on a shelf right between a Jeffries and one of our Morses).

Maybe when you do come over you could time it to correspond with one of our events?

-- Rich --

Well, there's the Connor...
...and I think I remember you having a Dipper recently? Or was that a Suttner? It doesn't seem to be on the website now, though.

jdms

Dana,

Absolutely!

Indeed you remind me of Alf Edward's 1937 Æola that I'm playing these days, though I wouldn't normally expect to think so highly of an instrument made at that time. It has the plywood construction and hook-action that you'd expect of the period, plus the fretwork is a bit crude compared with what they were still doing only a few years previously, however it's heavier than normal and has the most wonderful tone, not forgetting an amazing dynamic range. So did they pull out all the stops (by then available) to make it, or is it more to do with Alf playing it for the best part of half a century? Or a combination of the two?

Rich,

Don't look now, but it's not showing up in your link...


Maybe, but she's from Seattle, which isn't too handy for visiting your NE events - though I did get to see Wim Wakker, in Spokane, last time I was over, and to meet a few of the Pacific NW players.

She only got it fairly recently (late last year?) , after a five year wait.

[/quote]if Dana cares to re read,mypost .Iwas asking questions.
However SteveDickinson did say to me once ,that aeolas had longer reeds.generally speaking AEOLAS are considerd the best Wheatstones.
.to contradict this, Iam sure I read a post on this forum by Stephen Chambers,in which he said that at one time Lachenals had the best reed maker,this might indicate if its true,that the reed maker had a special secret,and that the quality of the steel used in the reed,was a secondary consideration.
I have yet to hear a concertina witha plywood sound board,that sounded as good as a natural wood sound board.Dick Miles

thanks to Stephen Chambers and Peter Laban for clarifying Ms. Keville's concertina make in the U Tube clip. apologies to M3838 for not posting the link. The one provided by Stephen C is the one I was referring to.

J

It just struck me that setting up Suttner vs Dipper, there should be no surprise the 'versus' is read as trying to create an opposition.

Ah well, that's the English language for you. I agree that it was perhaps an unfortunate subject line. We should be glad we've got the Dippers and Suttner and Dickinson and Kensington and Wakker and more making traditionally reeded concertinas, plus a whole slew of talented individuals making hybrids. It's a long time since the concertina community was so well served.

Chris

Thanks for the information some people have posted here, it's been informative.

As for the title of this thread, heck, I've always liked to 'shock' people you know :-)

To be honnest, to own a Dipper *or* a Suttner is a dream of mine. Everytime I try one, somewhere, every second is like being in paradise. My concertina plays very well, and it's action is as good as those, but there's something those concertina reeds... the sound, the vibrations, the vibration of the chords... It's hard to be patient. I want candy!

Hi John,

I saw your posting a couple of days ago, but needed time to think back to when my Dipper was new.

Colin uses very tight bushings for the buttons, coupled with quite a high spring tension. I checked on my Dipper, and a couple of the lesser used buttons still exhibit this "clack" when the button is released. Over the passage of time, the rest of the instrument has played in nicely and there is no obvious noise to be heard over the music.

If the noise worries you, there was a thread, some time in 2007, about how to compress the bushing felt. Other makers might have bushings which feel "just right" when new, but this might result in loose buttons after just a couple of years hard playing. Overall, I'm happy with Colin's approach.

Regards,
Peter.

Indeed, there's little about a Dipper that hasn't been thought about deeply. You may or may not agree with his approach (for instance I really like the unusually high rails on my baritone, others may not), but it's never like that by happenstance.

Hey ho, off to Sidmouth tomorrow. Whoopeee!

Chris

So even though original poster unequivocally stated that he means technical differences, it still strikes you as "trying to create an opposition"?
How come?
Unless we are specifically aware that makers are a touchy bunch, and we are in cue, and we are uneasy, expecting to be kicked off it, if makers suspect we somehow diminish "theirs" against "competition".
If it's not self-imposed censorship, what is it?
I personally didn't notice that makers are particularly touchy. They can slap opponent all right, with straight speech.
There must be differences between the makes, one is louder, one is noisier, one is honkier, one is brighter, heavier vs. lighter, easier bellows vs. more tight etc.
If we can't discuss these specs, what's the point of having this forum?

Yeah, that's pretty much the way I see it. I've never seen side by side technical comparison between these makers and I still think it's a bit taboo for some reason. If we can't risk creating threads about potentially subjective matters, what's left to talk about then?

Nice weather we're having, huh?

No, I'm not 'denying the looming global warming disaster,' I'm just saying it's nice out today. Seriously.

Okay, nevermind. Guess we can't discuss that, either.

It's actually pretty clever idea, but not new: to post side-by-side comparisons between makes, with pics and sound files.
May be it's worth to have a separate thread, but not Dipper vs. Suttner, they are rare beasts, but in general,
"Side-by-Side comparison" of all makes and models. Some task it is, isn't it?
As for taboos, there are plenty, and there are none. Like that shattered taboo about Irish music been boring (or not). Lovely discussion that was.
Too bad my Jack files are gone. Darn it! I'd start with that. I had many instruments in my hands over years, and the best, to my surprise, was metal ended Wheatstone English Treble, lent to potential customer of my brass reeded Wheatstone, which he never bought.

Probably not - the weather here has been pretty bad recently. Three days ago we spent my birthday drying out the conservatory after the rain comprehensively got in ... <sigh>

Chris