I'd appreciate your advice on my decision in purchasing my first Concertina.

The choices in front of me (English, BTW) are....

1. Get a 30 key Jack or Jill for $340
2. Get a new Stagi 48key for $495 (been sitting in a local music shop for sometime, I think)
3. Take a risk and pick up a couple of Lachenal 48key off ebay in the $100-$200 range (see these regularly on UK EBay) and hope I get something that can work for me or be rebuilt for a reasonable amount.

I'd like to hear your thinking on this choice.
I'd like to hear what YOU would choose (which may be different than your advice for me.)

Thanks very much and best regards
Rick
West Chester, Pennsylvania

Get the Jackie. They are great learning instruments.

I agree. The Jackie (or Jack) would be my first choice, more because of better construction than because of price. I had a Jack for a while -- I loved the sound, but it was just too big an instrument for me.

Unless you want to learn how to repair antique concertinas before you learn how to play them, I'd stay away from ebay.

I guess you could combine getting the Jackie with getting one of these cheap Laches, together with Dave Elliott's Concertina Repair Manual. That way you'll learn an awful lot more than most of us about concertina repairs and still learn to play. But I agree with Rhomilly, getting a wrecked concertina as your first box is more likely a recipe for simple frustration.

Welcome to the forum!

Chris

Jackie everytime! You'll be able to trade it back in when you want to trade up. It's a proper instrument - and will get you going on the EC in no time.
AL

Thank you ALL for the very quick responses.

Clearly the Jack/Jackie are very well thought of.
Yes, I get it....the advice on the Lach. I'll save that for later (or in addition to)


I don't have anywhere to see these so I have followup questions.

I haven't heard of the downsides of the Stagi.
Is it that you dislike it (strongly?) in comparison with CC?
or you don't have personal experience with it?

the Stagi upside?...it has 48 buttons, over 30.

Pertaining the Stagi
Is the sound poor? is it quite different than the Jack?
Is it the responsiveness and/or action of the keys?
Are the extra 18 notes not really so meaningful?

Pertaining the Jack/Jackie and the comment about the weight? Now that I think about it, from pictures, I have no sense of relative size or weight. I'm not really so worried as curios. I'm a tall skinny 210 pounder... I'll be ok with any size.
Is this instrument larger than most?
Is this instrument heavier than most? or merely than what you prefer?

Thanks again for indulging my simple beginner questions.
I understand reluctance from negative comments, this is a very positive (refreshing!!) board.
Still, I would be very pleased to hear info behind your advice so I can understand and learn. I'm very interested in your personal opinions and contrasts of the two instruments.

Best regards,
Rick, West Chester, Pennsylvania

I started on a Stagi and then got the bug and moved on to (several) vintage Wheatstones. The Stagi served me well for about a year while I learned where the buttons are. Sound varies considerably between makes-- the Stagi was much more "accordion" sounding to me, though still single reed (so none of the wetness of tuning which I rather dislike in accordions). My stagi was in concert pitch and generally in tune, so I could play it with others. My first Wheatstone (a tutor model from 1851) had rather leaky bellows and was far enough out of tune to bother other players. Since refurbished by Button Box, it is now one of my parlor instruments (too soft for a session, but charming in its own way).

The Stagi was much larger, heavier, and stiffer than the treble Wheatstones I now play. My thumbs got tired if I played it for very long. While I was first learning I found its action and responsiveness adequate. Several of the dealers do some tweaking of the tuning and action to make their Stagis predictable and improve their playing characteristics. I hung on to mine for a few years to play in situations where I didn't want a more valuable instrument--- the annual pool party for my ECD group comes to mind.

I doubt that you will miss the higher notes which are missing on the Jackie. Most tunes don't use them. It is only in the last year or so (when I started trying to play the Mathematician, a hornpipe by Scott Skinner) that I have found need for the top of the instrument.

The Jack is a baritone, so it is an octave lower than a treble. I have a baritone (from about 1849-- nickel silver reeds in hand cut shoes) and I love the sound. If you get the chance, try both a Jack and a Jackie so you can see whether you want the baritone or the treble. Fingering is the same.

I haven't played either a Jackie or a Jack, so I can't do the comparisons you ask for, but they have gotten good press here as decent beginner instruments, particularly considering price.

To make things as simple as possible:
Stagi has better appearance, very good action (late models only), slow and quiet reeds and pretty pleasant sound. Bellows aren't very good, and reeds are resistant to speak.
High and low reeds may be problematic, be either muffled, or buzzing, or very slow.
The quality is spotty, your great Stagi doesn't mean mine will be the same.
Jackies are pretty consistent in quality, sound and appearance may not be as good as Stagi, but the reed responce is much better, and it's 100% improvent over Stagi.
Action is consistenly smooth and reliable. Look is very basic. Bellows are excellent and it's another 100% improvement over Stagi.
As far as number of reeds go.
You have to remember, that English has redundant accidentals, that are missing on Jackie. The only one you'll miss is top C#, that is absent on Jackie.
Thumb loops are very comfortable on the Jackie, and overall quality is very good. It's simple workable machine.
All for less money. Stagi's only upper hand is it's range, but been Stagi, range quality is so compromized, you'd wonder why all that metal is in. Unless you are rather advanced player, but with no money. In which case you'll be destined to take a monetary loss in return for ability to play those pieces, unaccessible on Jackie, hoping to get better by the time you'll have the means for a "real" Concertina.

The Jack was too big for me to handle the bellows as much as I'd have liked -- I also have really small hands, even for a female.

As to size, here's a picture to make comparisons. Left to right: Jack (same size as a Jackie). 48 key Wheatstone treble. 56 key Wheatstone tenor/treble.



The Jack/Jackie concertinas aren't as heavy as they might look but they are quite bulky, this never seemed a problem to me (and still doesn't). One of these days I might find myself a vintage baritone or one of the incredibly light Morse Albions, until then I will keep Jack for the lovely deep voice. I've played both and my vote is firmly for Jack/Jackie.

Pete

Thanks everyone !!
This was extremely useful for me.

Best regards,
Rick

I've read this thread with great interest since I've had the same thought as the original poster.

May I revive this topic and ask one more question? Are the buttons on the Jackie spaced the same as the vintage Wheatstones (I find it difficult to tell from the pics) making the change from one instrment to the other easy?

The difference is barely perceptible, if anything the Jackie gives you a fraction of a millimetre more room but you'd be hard pushed to tell. There would be no problem switching straight to a high end vintage model although the difference in body size is very noticeable. The action is light too so you wouldn't be moving from a heavy, stiff button press to a much lighter one. I went from a Jack and a Jackie to my Wheatstone without missing a beat.

changing between concertinas is always going to be an adjustment. no matter what, you will have to get used to a new concertina, even if it is by the same maker. i have never played a jackie, but i have played a rochelle. the spacing wasnt anything difficult, but pressing the buttons was different, and thus an adjustment. for the jackie, it would be the same--switching to a wheatstone will mean having to adjust to the different buttons. but like i said... that's normal if you switch between concertinas anyways.

moving up to a better concertina can actually be difficult at first, as you will have new options of expression and ease of fingering and playing that you didnt have before. when i switched from my stagi to my edgley, i could hardly play the edgley, because i didnt know what to do with responsive reeds, well adjusted hand straps, buttons that worked, and bellows that werent like working out in the gym.

Thanks for the info.

I was recently lent a beginners concertina by a friend, the playability of the instrument put me off ever buying anything less than a fully restored vintage model. The bellows are stiff, the buttons are not level, some need to be pressed right into the hole in the ends before they play and there is a double note on one of the keys. But reading the reviews and opinions on this forum of the Jackie, I am begining to think that buying one may make good sense.

I feel the difference between Jackie spacing and "traditional" concertinas.
It's enough to miss every second button, untill you learn the difference and adjust to it.
You will also have to adjust to Jackie not having the duplicates, and for more common keys it is not a big deal.
Something with four flats will present a challenge.

The tunes I play at the moment are in the keys of F, C, D, G and A, anything else is beyond me on the fiddle. So I can't see me wanting to play in any others unless I need to make adjustments for a singer, but that's way in the future.

Edited to make more sense

It will change. EC is so easy to read with, in no time you'll be challenging yourself with more complex music in "difficult" keys. That's where you'll run into inconvenience of not having the duplicates, and relearn some fingering in the future. But it's not terminal.