OK, here's another one:

So we all know now, that Concertina in equal temper doesn't like 3ds and 5ths.
And even simple close major sounds "jazzy".
So how about modern compositions and jazz? It's elaborate harmonies don't allow for impresition in tuning. I've begun to work on some guitar scores from Russian arranger, and found that all of it is done with very modern approach. How do I know if it's the intention of arranger, or my impresition in reading, or it's my instrument"s howling?
Who plays jazz on EC? Any examples?
If concertina doesn't like thirds and fifths so much, why makers and tuners stick to equal temper, when EC particularly was designed for mean tuning?

I would recommend Misha that you have a listen to the playing of John Nixon. He has made two Jazz CDs, or you can hear three tracks of his playing on English International , about two weeks away. He is a master of the art of multi tracking and uses three different concertinas for some of his recordings..He is an Ex member of the Bolton Concertina Band and joined his Father in the band at a very early age.He plays all types of music and is one of the UKs outstanding players.
Al

Equal temper is a compromise. There are folks who have opted for alternate tunings. I've heard David FR's Lachenal AC in I think mean tuning done by Paul Groff. Beautiful sound.

you could say it sounds mean.

I've tried jazz chords on the baritone Jack (have you heard the sample My Shining Hour on http://www.concertinaconnection.com/jackie-jack.htm ?) and they sound surprisingly OK. I could imagine that they would be too shrill on a treble. Mean tone temperament, or even a compromise baroque temperament, doesn't work for jazz - I've tried it on my harpsichord and it was too "Ur"!

Yes, I've heard the "Shining Hour". I am not impressed. On the other hand accordion jazz from the 50-60s sounds convincingly. Is it really just the pure tone of single muffled concertina reed that don't work well in harmony then? Could it be that makers did such a good job at getting rid off high overtones to acheive that classic "honk", that it successfully ruined instrument's ability to play complex harmonies? Now we have to open the chords, move the third octave up and use other ways to "improve" compositions to adupt them to concertina.
How do you regard this, if you need to spread the chords? Wouldn't it have different feel and may not fit the intentions of composer/arranger?
(yea, I'm working on that one)

I actually prefer the single reed sound to the 8' + 4' sound. I was inspired to try bandoneon by recordings of Dino Saluzzi, but I did find the sound of parallel octaves irritating after a while, so I got myself a single-voice Geuns hybrid bandoneon, which I'm learning at the moment. Far from finding close voicings unacceptable, I find even clusters containing semitones sound fine. I do tend to play fairly quietly, though.

I think jazzy chords on the 'box sound great, and even that they are possibly the best sounding music of all for my concertina, but I do have a classic Wheatstone, not something with a tone aimed at the folk market, if you see what I mean.

The only modern arrangements for duet that I have seen in any quantities are by Iris Bishop and David Cornell and both of them seem to favour jazz era stuff too, so I think I'm in good company here.

Single voice Geuns Bandoneon? Hm. Custom fitting?
Well, lots of accordion jazz from the 50s was played on single reed setting, and it sounded well. I always had the impression, that high overtones (thanks to explanations on this site) help to blend the tones in harmony. So then I deducted that for concertina, where those high overtones are lessened, precise tuning is very important to avoid "horny sealions" effect, esp. on the lower reeds. There were many opinions expressed, that concertina doesn't like those close intervals, and I was thinking it may be due to stretched tuning, but now people say stretched tuning doesn't work for jazz. I'm puzzled.
So precize tuning, where sharp is not flat is bad for jazz? What's wrong with jazz then, is it not music?
Your Geuns bandoneon is basically single reeded accordion, split in half, so the action and reed chambers, cabinet sizing and overall construction is more like accordion, and less like concertina. They use the same reeds as for Rochell/Jackie, but tonal character may differ from smaller concertina. Though I do find Jackie's tone more bright and reedy, and actually better sounding in harmonies than rounder, honkier, higher end concertina.
Are you saying, David, that it's not the instrument, but my preferences and hearing?
So you disagree with some, who say close chords should be spread?
The reason I didn't go with Crane (much superiour system otherwise, I agree) is the balance and voicing of the reeds, that made music sound like multiple "mooing", with uneven tone between push and pull, left and right. I attributed it to pecularities of Duet system and went for Anglo, which sound I found more satisfying and energetic. But then my hand problem scared me away and towards the Englsh. With the English inability to Oom-pa diminished the problem of accompaniment overpowering melody, but some of the passages sound unconvincing to me, to the point, where I begin to wonder, whether it's a typo, or I'm misreading the score. Hence the question in this topic.

P.S.
So what's your impression about the Hybrid Bandoneon?
I'm thinking of gettng one with Russian (not mirrored) B system, but going back to that B chromatic keyboard is not exciting for me.
Do you have more difficulties to play at the edges of the keyboard due to restrained wrist? How's the response?
Since you have twice fewer reeds, did it cost you less?
If only they made Crane system Bandoneons...

It's the prototype of his Jazz model, which he decided not to go ahead with.

Part of the problem is that it modulates so much, so at least some of the piece is going to be wildly out of tune. Even in a single mode, though, jazz chords don't sound right, perhaps because the dissonances are so strong that they need the softening that equal temperament provides. In mean tone or other baroque tunings they're too in-your-face.

Yup.

I like it very much.

No, the idea is to push your arm right through the strap so it can move freely up and down the keyboard. The only problem I have is that I have a pre-existing shoulder problem, so need to minimize the amount of pushing and pulling. If I use gravity to assist me (by playing on one knee) it pushes the keyboard against my hand, which is then no longer free to move along the keyboard. I'm experimenting with using the other knee to catch the weight when necessary, but it's too early to know whether that will work. Because the bellows, therefore the whole instrument, is shorter than a standard bandoneon, it's not possible to hook it over both knees and pull and push with them, unless I start with the bellows open.

Some of the bass notes are too sluggish, but that's because the Chinese guy didn't pay enough attention to the voicing. I'm hoping Harry will be able to put that right when he retunes it. It'll probably still be less responsive than the 8'+4' model, but if he can get the bad notes to speak as quickly as the good ones I'll be quite happy.

Nope, same price, because he had to do more work on it when it arrived from China.

OK, yes, I never break chords unless it's asked for by the music; I can't imagine doing it. (And, by the way, I am also highly suspicious of the regular statement that 'concertina arrangements should be sparse'. I think that's suspect too). Jazz chords are often dead easy on a Maccan; they regularly reduce to a straight row of 4 buttons, or a triangle of 3; odd that, considering the system predates such fancies.

Please stop repeating this tripe about duets having overpowering bass, as though it's a special vice. ALL concertinas have all the reeds playing at the same time working at the same pressure. If you have 5 accompaniment notes playing with one melody note, yes you risk drowning it, but this is a matter to deal with by technique, or just accept; there are compensations, as with most instruments. Mind you it sounds like you had a rotten example.

Finally, don't buy a Crane again or, in your case, that will be another dead end you've travelled down. Cranes may be fine for general use but if you want to play challenging classical music, as I would expect of you, you will need a big Maccan for the range. Recent throw-away comments about getting bigger Cranes for 'Baroque polyphony' are hopelessly optimistic; my Maccan is only just big enough to get away with playing (sorry: attempting to play) Baroque keyboard music and then I really need a bottom E (and Eb, D...)

I'm of the same mindset. How can you "sparse up" written music without overwriting it? Nothing wrong with "improving" Bach, only it may not be any better.



True. Only with English the mind is working differently. The music stops appearing as "melody and accompaniment", and low overpowering notes are not perceived important, and can be dropped at will, or transposed up. It's natural, and kind of comes with EC mentality.



I probably did, but I also got rotten Anglo (20 button brass reeded Lachenal) and it sounded better.



That's an interesting comment. A few posts lately suggested that seemingly illogical layout of MacCanns is more compact.

It is. 6 columns across the keyboard instead of 5. You need 6 rows on a crane for every 5 on a Maccan.