I would appreciate thoughts on the respective qualities of rosewood and ebony. Ebony is reputed to be the hardest wood, and to sound the best but is there really a difference between it and rosewood? Even if ebony sounds marginally better, I suspect that it is more susceptible to humidity changes and problems such as cracking in areas like the Northeast U.S. where the humidity swings from 10% indoors in the winter to over 50% indoors in the summer. So I am curious as to what people with either rosewood or ebony think about its sound and is compatibility with humidity swings. I ask because I expect to have an opportunity to get a Bb/F in the next year or two and will have a choice. Alan

as far as i have heard, ebony is too heavy for concertinas, doesnt make much of a difference, and cracks easier. flutes, on the other hand, are much stabler in black woods.

Whatever about concertinas, African blackwood is generally stable in flutes which are subject to a lot of moisture and temp changes. I had a rosewood flute for a while and it was the divil to take apart after a few hours playing because it would swell.

If it's a new concertina you're getting, it will be a veneer so not too much to worry about. With vintage ones, the solid wood ebony tended to be very brittle although ebony was usually used on the better instruments.

.............also remember that many of the top english concertinas ie Aeolas,were not solid ebony but "ebonised". French polish over pear wood ( I think) Robin

I dobt there'd be as much difference between kinds of woods as there would be between metal and wood.



I don't think this is necessarily true. The harder the wood the more likely it will be to crack. Boxwood will warp and go out of round before it cracks. I assume it will give when the metal of the head joint expands, rather than resist the expansion.

Having concert flutes in rosewood, ebony, and cocus I think I can make a broad statement. All of these woods make excellent flutes, and should also be fine for the ends of a concertina. The entire body of the flute is made of the same material, where as concertina may have solid wood ends and a veneered frame, and a sound board of yet another material such as maple. With the flutes rosewood and cocus are the more red in appearance, but ebony can have a very reddish grain to it. Many antique flutes that appear to be ebony or blackwood are really aged cocus. It darkens with time and exposure to the elements after it is cut and finished. Sonically a cocus flute has more complex overtones than a blackwood of the same maker. There is a touch more bite to a blackwood flute, but as for stability, I think all the various woods need similar care and respect against drying out .The rosewood flute is tonally more similar to the cocus ( I think the woods are of the same family ). As with any instrument the tonal properties are very much a preference of the individual player, and my new concertina will be solid ebony ends. In comparison to the veneer I "think" it may have more overtones and ring than a veneer over ply. The ply has glues in it which could dampen the resonance slightly.

I don't think there is/will be a discernible difference in tone between identical concertinas no matter what species of (very) hardwoods are used for the ends (whether solid or ply). Concertina ends are primarily tonal *filters*, not resonators.

I note that all the vintage boxes I've seen with plyed ends are all dense hardwoods (usually maple) with a hardwood veneer (usually ebony). Some "ebony" instruments may appear to be ebonized other woods, though they are usually ebonized ebony (most ebony is *not* completely black, but very dark brown and/or black with dark brown to medium brown stripes).

Changes in humidity is a serious issue. A solid wood (even very hard woods like ebony) will move far more than plyed (at 90 degrees) woods will. Information on how flutes react to humidity will have little bearing on how concertinas react to humidity. It's pretty simple: the woods move, but flutes don't have much in the way of restrictions to movement (but at the head joint and wood around the metal barrel), and the largest across-grain piece in a flute is only about an inch.

Concertinas OTOH, are 6" plus across and are restrained at the edges by endbolts. I've rarely encountered a vintage concertina which has solid wood ends which *wasn't* split. Solid padpans often crack as well (as they're secured by the endbolts). Reedpans "float" (no endbolts to restrain them) so almost never crack.

If you've taken apart many concertinas you can easily spot the ones with solid vs plyed ends as the endbolts are usually difficult to remove (from solid wood ended concertinas) - and *extremely* difficult to get back on as it takes only a few minutes for a stressed solid top to relax a bit such that the bolt alignments are further out of alignment.


It sounds like you'll be getting a new concertina then? Whatever wood you choose I recommend that it be plyed. For the least trouble go with a plyed top of the same woods throughout and sold wood sides (not plyed).

-- Rich --

Well-crafted wooden ends can look splendid but so can equally well-crafted metal ends. With all the potential problems brought about by fluctations of humidity, temperature, ageing etc. metal ends sound like the obvious solution. Is wood significantly lighter ? I doubt that there is any discernable difference to the tone of the instrument either way. Has anyone experimented with different fabric linings behind the fretting ? I reckon this might reveal some interesting variations in tone. It's nice to have a pretty instrument but the 'music' is what it's all about.

Juergen Suttner advertises "flat solid ebony ends" as an extra-cost option on his new concertinas. See his price list.

Thank you to Rich and everyone who offered an opinion. All of your responses were very helpful. Humidity is indeed a problem here in New England, and I have suffered a bit with concertinas in the past in terms of slight gaps in the reed pan from the frame, and even in a pivot post becoming loose. So it is good to learn that steps taken to reduce the problem of excessive dry and humid conditions can be addressed, at least partially, without sacrificing tone.

Two issues were raised in the responses that are interesting.

1) Does the use of fabric as a filter make a difference, and in particular, can it take some of the "edge" off of notes such as the high A & B? One of the reasons I like a Bb/F (other than in sessions) is that those notes are not really in play. Although, what I hear as a bit of a screech in thoe notes is not necessarily heard by others whom I have asked to listen.

2) Rich makes the point that the ends are just filters, and not resonators like the reed pans. So I wonder whether the wood in a reed pan makes any difference. I have heard of mahogany, maple and spruce used for that purpose.

Alan

If Colin Dipper knows your instrument is going to be in a challenging humidity environment,such as here in Ontario,he builds a laminated reed pan not a solid one.Makes no difference to the sound but may make a differnce to it's longevity.
Robin

I've been meaning to comment that the differences in sound between old instruments with rosewood or ebony ends have more to do with other factors, such as the quality of the reed pan (especially chambering, or lack of it) and reeds, the material the action board is made from, and how much fretwork is in the ends. Indeed the terms "rosewood" and "ebony" can often be more an indication of quality/price, rather than a statement of the actual material used, since the rosewood is often only a top veneer in a lamination, and "ebony" ends are commonly stained maple or pearwood laminations.

I'd say that not many of us have actually had the opportunity to compare otherwise identical instruments with ends made of solid rosewood or ebony (?), as such choices have only recently become available, but I doubt if there'd be much difference. On the other hand, old instruments with solid wood ends, be it ebony, rosewood or mahogany, are commonly cracked, and even have pieces missing - it was not without reason that the old makers tended to laminate the ends of their better-quality instruments.


Like Rich said, lamination/ply is the best answer.


That depends on the fabric, but in fixing old instruments I've more often found it an improvement to remove baffles than add them.


I think you may mean what I (and English concertina makers) would call the action board? (In which case mahogany, maple and spruce have indeed been used for that purpose, but reed pans are traditionally always maple.) If so, spruce was only used for cheapness (and is very prone to cracking/warping), but mahogany will produce a drier sound, and maple a brighter one.

I didn't mention anything about the reedpans being resonators.... And very contrary to that I - feel strongly that reedpans are NOT resonators! In fact I suspect that they are the opposite: dampeners - they're intended to *not* to vibrate/resonate. The idea is that the tone generators - the reeds - oscillate (I prefer the word over "vibrate") to produce sound. The more they oscillate (further the swing) the louder the sound. Reeds poorly secured to the reedpan are less loud as some of the energy of the oscillation would be spent wiggling the reedplate.

Same with the reedpan. If the reeds were well secured to the reedpan and yet the reedpan was insubstantial (easily movable/vibratable) some of the reed oscillation energy would go to moving/vibrating the reedpan... and the volume of sound would be less.

But why aren't reedpans made of 1/4" plate steel then? Because I suspect it would sound terrible. Actually, I don't know that for sure though I've played with a solid aluminum reedpan and the box sounded horrible. What we're looking for is *selective dampening* and for our purposes maple works quite well.


I suspect that the type of wood does make a sound and volume difference though I've only seen/played maple reedpanned concertinas.

-- Rich --

Hmm.
Why then early harmonicas/concertinas/accordions and some modern ones (harmonicas, bayans and bandoneons) basically have solid Copper or Brass "reedpans"?

They use zinc, IIRC, which would be a bit different. And that's for the reed plates. The reed pans are integral to the action board, and made out of wood.

Willie Van Wyck makes reedpans from perspex, which is Plexiglass. His concertinas sound very good- bright and clear, with good volume. With any musical instrument you'd want to reduce vibration where you don't want it and encourage it where you do. I would bet that the metal reedpan doesn't sufficiently damp unpleasant overtones.
We need Jack Bradshaw here. Is it the air in the reed chamber that is vibrating, like the air in the body of a flute? The question of the material the flute is made from - and its effect on the sound - is a source of never-ending debate. Popular opinion holds that a flute made from blackwood will sound brighter and have more volume than a flute made from box wood, a softer wood.
Would the type of wood used in the chamber walls of a concertina have a significant effect on the sound?

The importance of protecting instruments from fluctuations of temperature and humidity at all times cannot be over-emphasised. These are the factors which will always affect the stability of timber in whatever it's application. In addition, as I understand it, the metal components.... reeds, springs, etc., can only corrode with the help of an excess level of humidity. Whilst this might present a few problems to wandering minstrels it should not be an insurmountable problem for the rest of us. Never underestimate the importance of storing the instrument in a solid, waterproof, well fitting and very well padded case and treat the whole thing with appropriate consideration at all times. Not such a tall order.

I'm not so sure that this has got anything to do with what the rest of you are talking about ? !

I've heard of them, and I'd love to see one, but didn't you sell yours?


The size, proportions and shape of the chamber would have the most significant effect.

Harmonicas, accordions and German concertinas don't have reedpans. Harmonicas are basically one ganged reedplate, accordions typically have reed *reedbanks* (which is what their reedplates are secured to) and few accordions and some of the cheaper German concertinas have truncated reedbanks (reedplates secured to chambers which lie "flat" onto the padpan aka the "soundboard").

The action board is the piece that deals with the action (secures the springs and lever fulcrum posts, and usually provides guide holes for the button ends). The action board is usually secured to the padpan/soundboard).

-- Rich --

I don't think so though the surface texture seems to have a significant affect on the sound. We experimented with several types of solid wood (and fiberboards, particleboards, plywoods) which resulted in that the smoother and harder-surfaced the material, the a brighter/clearer sound. Actually well into overly bright. Seemed to magnify/reflect some portion of the sound spectrum we didn't like.

The worst of the batch was particleboards which were lased. I'm suspecting that this type of board has the highest ration of glue to wood and that the lasing process (a type of burning/melting) left a mirror-smooth and hard "cut" surface.

-- Rich --

There we disagree I'm afraid, the traditional name for that piece is "disc" (because that is the shape of it in an English concertina), though I've also come across it corrupted to "desk" by a London maker (a bit like bellows/bellass!), and the action board (otherwise pad board, or pallet board) is what it sits on, which you call padpan/soundboard - names that I've never heard used for it before.

Mind you, if we were both talking about the "hood" of a car, we'd also be meaning very different things...

I've often wondered if the rough finish of the chamber walls that you'd see in Jeffries instruments might be having a slight damping effect...

It would be interesting to know how these stand up over time. I wonder if he's the only one.

Interesting. I've never heard it called a "disc", though it certainly makes sense. New "words" often arise when things have to be described in isolation though I don't think our shop is the only one to call those parts "action board" and "padpan". The soundboard I mentioned was due to the inclusive nature of the post toward accordions. We don't consider traditional concertinas to have "sound boards" though that is what many people call that similar part of an accordion.

-- Rich --

Good God, are there no secrets on this board? You still don't know my blood type!

I did sell the Van Wyck, but not because it wasn't good. The sound was excellent but I found the response of the reeds was a bit slow. For other than Irish music, or for somebody who plays more vigorously than I do, it might be fine. I suppose the reeds could have been tweaked to get a better response but I decided to get a concertina that I liked better right from the start, and one with a Jeffries layout.

I have a broader question. Suppose certain notes were too bright, say in the upper octave. Would lining the offending chamber walls (or parts of the chambers) with a thin piece of leather - or just roughing up the chamber walls - make the sound less piercing or shrill?

It's interesting that the Herrington, which didn't have what I thought was a pleasing sound (although well made), doesn't have reed chambers. Do other hybrids likewise have no proper reed chambers? Could this account for a larger difference in sound than just the difference in reed design? Dana Johnson solders the base of the reed to the phosphor shoe and that seems to work just fine, giving a traditional sound and response. Rich and other concertina makers will sooner or later make a concertina that is affordable and that has a more traditional sound.

I'm going to post this on the Instrument Construction and Repair thread and see where it goes. Sorry for the double posting but I think it's an nteresting question.

Not yet David, though I'm working on it...

Mind you, I seem to remember a thread or two here about you selling it?


That's a huge question, and there are less drastic traditional "tricks" that I'd try first, but right now I have to get into my car and drive up to Dublin...

Normal service will be resumed ASAP.

I think that would have some effect - depending on your instrument. Most hybrid makers have all wood chamber parts while traditional concertinas use the bellows frame gasket chamois for that part of the chamber enclosure. I would think that the addition of leather surfacing or alteration to rougher surfaces would have far less sound dampening effect on a vintage concertina than on a hybrid.
HH's concertinas *do* have reed chambers, as do all other hybrids. They are constructed differently, and might appear to be quite different from traditional concertinas, but they are there.

-- Rich --

edgley's have reed chambers. i am assuming the other hybrids do too.

and i agree with richard--as far as i understand, reed chambers are not supposed to resonate the pitch. the harmonic system is very different from wind and string instruments, and the research i have read states that a resonant reed chamber chokes the reeds, so the chambers are designed specifically not to resonate. and to note, i think there is sometimes a difference between the strict definition of the word and the usual use of it. when i say resonate in this instance, i mean that the chambers are not "in resonance," i.e. oscillating at the maximum amplitude. you cou could also say that the natural, resonate frequency of the reed chambers are not equivalent to that of the natural frequency of the reeds oscillating.