Greetings, and I do hope you're not all thinking 'not another newbie'..

I would really value some input from the Masters on this forum, since I'm a complete (though keen) novice. I play a couple of instruments, including Piano Accordion, and recently decided to take up the Concertina, which is a very popular instrument here in South Africa.

An older gentleman I happen to know has a Wheatstone concertina which he is willing to sell to me for GBP350. Unfortunately I have absolutely no idea if this is a good price. I have handled the instrument, it appears to be in very good condition, plays well, great sound too, but I do not know what model or type it is exactly. All I got was a serial number of 33497.

I discovered the Horniman Wheatstone Ledgers on Concertina.Net and eventually tracked the ledger which appears to list this particular concertina (ledger SD02 I think). However, in the ledger next to '497' it does not have a description of any sort, but there appears to be a line drawn diagonally upwards to a description of 'R 48 keys'. See here:

http://www.horniman.info/DKNSARC/SD02/PAGES/D2P1500S.HTM

Looking at wheatstone.co.uk I deduced that this must be an English Concertina, Rosewood (R?) 48 keys.

Does it seem like I am on track? And if so, would 350 pound sterling be a reasonable price for this instrument?

I play English concertina and have (several, they're habit forming) Wheatstones. They are wonderful instruments. I don't have one from exactly this period, but it is both early enough and late enough to be in the very good to excellent range. If you've played it, find it in good condition, sounds great, and plays well, I'd say 350 pound sterling is a bargain.

Excellent, thanks Larry. So you think I nailed the type / model, that its probably the English type 48 key Rosewood? I imagine the type of wood does not have too much to do with playability or even price .. more the look.

Rosewood-ended instruments of that age were usually the better instruments as opposed to the mahogany-ended ones.

Thanks, good to know

One more question: How can I as novice determine if it has steel or brass reeds? It appears that that is quite important.

It's listed as a model 71. I can't find this on the price lists. I would wait until someone who knows what this model is writes in. If it's a 1935 instrument it is unlikely to have brass reeds I believe.

I checked the price lists on concertina.com and couldn't find a model 71. Then I checked the model number of one of my own (34429) which is a rosewood Crane duet with 48 buttons. That one is listed as a model 71.

Based on this evidence I would assume that 33497 is also a 48 button Crane duet. Less common, I guess, than a 48 button English. Still probably a good deal. If you like the sound and it plays well it should be reasonably good for playing chords on the left and tune on the right, or playing from a piano score. Developing some proficiency on mine is one of my projects for the summer.

Check out the Wilton-Bulstrode tutor for the Crane duet, the All systems duet tutor by Hayden, and the music arranged for duet (though for Hayden rather than Crane) on www.concertina.com. All good resources should you take the plunge.

Thanks Larry, you reckon it is a Duet and not English then. Interesting, I will read up on the different between the two.

I am arranging pictures of the concertina including a picture of the reeds, then I will add them here. I am sure those of your more familiar with concertinas should be able to confirm the model and condition more acurately from pictures.

I asked the seller to send me a couple of pictures of the concertina, which he did, though it appears he does not have a very steady hand or his camera used a slow shutter because he was shooting indoors in bad light and not using flash. Anyway, attached is four photos of the concertina, could anyone help me confirm if this is indeed a Wheatstone Crane Duet 48 key Rosewood? And even though the pictures are very bad quality, can anyone spot any concerns perhaps?

Much appreciated!

Yes, definitely a 48 key rosewood Crane with steel reeds, metal buttons too. Doesn't look maltreated; the ends aren't splitting or battered and the bellows corners look OK, although you can't see the bottom ones, the ones that wear. The valves are obviously older ones so it's perhaps a while since it had a fettling; but from what you say it doesn't need any work immediately, so stop looking this particular horse in the mouth and buy it fast before someone else gets there first, I'd suggest!

Yes indeed, SirDon!

It's just what I'm looking for - when I get the funding settled!

Try it for a while, and if you don't like it and want to sell it - drop me an e-mail!

Cheers,
John

Excellent guys, thanks for your feedback. I'll buy it and if I do not like it I'll offer it for sale on this site first

Does anyone perhaps have a rough idea what this instrument would be worth?

A very good choice if I might say so, and though we'd more usually associate the Anglo concertina with South African music, the clips posted on YouTube by Concertina.net member Sean Minnie (youtube.com/user/konsertina) include one of Stephaan van Zyl playing a Crane duet, such as the one you are buying, with Sean Minnie himself on Maccann duet: http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=ebQwg9KfRpE. So you won't be the only player of the system in the country!

I just discovered today that Duets are actually not popular at all out here in South Africa. People that have them often seem to struggle to sell them, even for quite low prices. Hopefully that means I will be able to get a bargain

In answer to your question, difficult to value it at this range but, based on what you tell us, I'd guess that on a good day it might sell for near to twice what he's asking, given a polish. And despite your countrymen's opinion, a duet is the most versatile concertina of the lot, and Cranes are famously easy to pick up.

If any of them have a big Maccan they are desperate to unload send me a pm....

If any of them have a big Maccan they are desperate to unload send me a pm....
[/quote]

this sounds very high risk based on other posts
chris

I persuaded the seller to let it go for US$495 (GBP250). You're looking at a proud new owner of a Crane Duet. By tomorrow I'm sure I'll be able to play Mary Had A Little Lamb

Blimey. See if you can get a few more. You may have missed your vocation.

Gee whizz!

I'm with Dirge on that one! While you're looking for a big Maccann for him, see if you can find another Crane - any size - for me!

Cheers,
John

But first you must see the condition. From the pictures it seems like needing work. I'm sure the pads need to be adjusted, the valves, perhaps tuning. SA Crane players are not few, judging by the Youtube clips, and the price may reflect the condition. Still a good price, even consdiering some $300-500 (or more?) in repairs, but may not be so outlandishly low.
Can you do a simple "gravity test"? Hold one end and let the other expand down under it's weight. Check the time in seconds, at which bellows will stop expanding noticeably.
5-10 seconds - may need major rework.
15-25 seconds - leaky, and workable only by a good player. For beginner needs tightening, as Duets seem to use lots of air, and airtightness is cruicial for them, unlike for Anglos, where airbutton and push/pull action compensate for leaking.
36-45 seconds - Good, workable.
50 seconds on - I haven't even seen such.

The gravity test isn't likely to tell you what cost of work is required. it just tells you if there is significant leakage. It can be one corner badly leaking but easily repairable causing the fast drop. This also doesn't allow for the other issues that may be there on a tight instrument (new valves needed, retuning etc. etc.). I suggest taking it to a local repairer to get an estimate of what is required. There are several in SA. (Willie van Wyk, Koot brits etc.)

A cough may not be a flu, but one of the symptoms.
If instrument was unplayed for many years, has original bellows and straps, drops fast - chances are it's not the corner. It may have bellows split in a horrible way, but only $300 will give it new live for decades. It probably needs lots of small things, none too serious, but needing attention. Here and there, nothing bad, but all together is costly. It would be a pity though to leave this instrument to play as is, without a good overhaul. Especially when it was aquired for such a good price.
A trip to and making friends with one of suggested (and why not all) repairers is certainly a next step. And probably very pleasant (aside from having to pay for it).

From SirDon's first post. You bunch of pessimists.

Well done, my lord.

So you want to say that good size Crane in working condition can be bought in SA for $500?
Sounds like a Promised Land.
Where's my ticket?
Don't tell them about Ebay. Ebay is Bad!

Just before I made an offer to the seller I spoke to a local expert on concertina's and piano accordians (he sells, plays, repairs them). He told me people often struggle to sell Duets in South Africa as they are simply not that popular here, even though they are worth much more overseas. Which is why I went in low, and it worked.

To respond to M3838: I fully agree with you, one of the first things I plan to do is to take it to an expert to have it checked out so I can see what condition it is in and what sort of work is needed. It appears to be in good condition, but I'm really in no position to tell. I'll let you know what the outcome is

Oh, and I'll try that gravity test, should be interesting.

I'm thinking I should start going through the small towns and farm areas and find more of these, then sell them on E-bay

In that case, I doubt if this Wheatstone 57-key Maccann duet for US $1,600.00, in Brackenfell, Cape Town, will sell, though it looks like a nice instrument - and a very handy size/range.

"I'm thinking I should start going through the small towns and farm areas and find more of these, then sell them on E-bay"

Donovan, let discretion guide you. Good luck with your newly acquired Crane Duet

A good Christian will never rip people off.
Or profit from anything.
Or invest in futre.
Or worry about tomorrow.
Or he's simply a Pagan.

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