This is a question broken off from another thread. There appears to be a wide variety in what constitutes a Celtic seisun/session in various reaches of the world.

Here's what it's like where I am:

The Celtic ceili group I have played with is an open session, but also offers a book of its sets to regular players. Certain songs are arranged. When playing "The Butterfly," for example, it's solo flute the first time through. We play traditional tunes (The exception being "Wizard's Walk" which is a favorite way to end the evening.) for two hours each week at a pub.

This particular group I have played with does play for dancers. Yes, this is a pub session and there's barely enough room for dancing. It often serves as a practice for competitive dancers and there have been some set dances as well.

Periodically, one of the virtuoso singers will treat us to a song or two. We had a pipes player ask to sit in. Um, they were field pipes!

This particular session has players of all ages and skill levels. This includes many young people. The bodhran player has brought her daughter and a junior-sized drum, for example. One of the flautists brought a handful of her recorder students. We backed them (slowly) on several tunes they were perfecting. Several high school and college-aged kids come when studies allow. Some of the classically-trained professional musicans have played (or rather un-learn) with the group.

Typically, there are plenty of fiddles, guitar, whistles, flutes, banjo, bodhran, mandolin (when I'm there), hammered dulcimer, and button accordion. The pub has an upright piano and the dulcimer player has been pressed into service when we were without our guitarist.

I haven't been to other sessions, sadly. Perhaps that will change.

What are sessions like where you are?

ldp

This is a digression, but I'm really just sulking. I don't want to start a long discussion. It's just that...

Where I come from, if it has words and a melody, it's a "song". If it has no words, whatever else it has, it's not a "song". If it's only a melody, and not too long and complicated, it's generally known as a "tune".

Lot's of people now seem to use "song" to mean "tune", and I don't know where it got started, but it sure gets confusing. Just what are the words to "The Floating Crowbar", anyway?

I think it might be interesting if people note the city county or whatever locale their session is in. Sorry, I don't know all the correct terms for locations around the world.

Helen

Anyway, it would be fun for me to know.

Hey Jim,

Look it up in the dictionary...

Chris

Good point, Helen. This is the Santa Barbara (CA) County seisun.

I think the next closest place to find a group is either LA or SLO.

ldp

I'm with Jim here, so I did look it up in an online dictionary (via Google), and here's what I found, which I think supports his position precisely:

1. Music.
a. A brief composition written or adapted for singing.
b. The act or art of singing: broke into song.
2. A distinctive or characteristic sound made by an animal, such as a bird or an insect.
3.
a. Poetry; verse.
b. A lyric poem or ballad.

Source: The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th ed., 2000.

Dictionary.com says, under "tune..."

Music.

1. A melody, especially a simple and easily remembered one.
2. A song.
3. etc

This looks like an American expression, as the Oxford (Shorter) admits "a succession of notes arranged for voice" but does not use the word song...

regs

Chris

That's OK. I don't think you're in the business of knowing.

You'd be surprised (or maybe not) how many web sites won't accept my address if it doesn't include a "state" or ZIP code... and these are the ones trying to sell me something. Some think they're being flexible by requiring "state, province, county, or region", but in a country the size of New Hampshire, we just don't use the "Amt" (county) as part of the address. And if they do accept the fact that my postal code has only 4 digits, most of them still put it after the city name, whereas we always put it before.

1) Do you believe everything you read on the internet?
...Definition: GIGO (dictionary.com has a pedantic expansion of the following)
.....1. "Garbage In, Garbage Out"
.....2. "Garbage In, Gospel Out"

2) I know someone who worked as a researcher on a major dictionary, and so I know that very often definitions were changed to suit personal whim, or even just so a supervisor could show his/her dominance over the researchers.

3) A dictionary is supposed to record usage, not dictate it. As I noted in my grumbling, I don't like "song" being used to mean something without words, because I feel it reduces clarity. But I acknowledge that it is a current usage -- and in fact one that seems to be increasing, -- because that's what I'm complaining about.

(I knew I should have started a separate topic. Sorry.)

I'm with Jim on this one. Probably a good idea if we move this elsewhere.

Chris

Hey Chris or anyone,

Can you write a sentence showing how "song" shows an habitual or characteristic manner. Definition 6a in Chris's post. That one got me.

I had learned that song was music with words and tune was music without words. I simply remembered that because I CAN NOT SING and was comforted to know that there are thingies out there without words.

Helen

"Tha's got me theere", he said, wi't poozled look in th'eye. How about "he made his usual song-and-dance about songs having to have words" ? A bit tentative, I admit.

Chris

>What are sessions like where you are?

That WAS the question, wasn't it?

Around here (Washington DC area) they're varied.
Some Irish sessions that are pretty rigid and structured. I haven't been to many of those, mostly because I'm intimidated by the formality of it all.

For several years I attended a monthly session hosted by a Scottish fiddler who urged folks to bring in notation and pass it around so others could learn tunes. A heavy concentration on Scottish, but some Irish and American.

I also attend a weekly free-for-all session that is musical anarchy: no structure at all, no rules, except that when you want to start a tune, you have to be really assertive and jump in. Pretty much any kind of music is appreciated: Celtic, American contra and old-time, Irish, Klezmer, Broadway, Eastern European dance music.

Every session format I've tried has its charms, but I seem to enjoy the free-for-all sessions the most.

Sure: "Hes singing that same old song, again." or just "There's that song, again."

I started going to "sessions" in New York City more than 30 years ago. Some of us weren't Irish, but most who hadn't either grown up in the Irish community or in Ireland itself were at least studying under those who had. (One young piper was a Russian Jew, but had travelled widely to study under all the great pipers of the day, including Seamus Ennis and Willy Clancy.)

The sessions I experienced in those days were all "open" and unstructured. Most were in bars (American for "pubs"), though at least one wasn't. No individual or even group of individuals "ran" the session; instead, a considerate, cooperative anarchy prevailed. There were some unspoken "rules" -- maybe "guidelines" would be more accurate, -- but they were few and generous. Here is my interpretation of the ones I feel were shared by all or most of the sessions:
.. 1. The session is for listening to music. Loud or extended conversations were to be taken to another room (it really helps to have a session room which is separate from the main bar). Brief, whispered comments among the "audience" were OK, but if they reached the point where it was difficult to hear the music (100 whispers make a roar), somebody (not necessarily a musician) would stand up and request that it stop. The musicians might occasionally talk about something among themselves, but if so, it would be brief, and it was never acceptable for a musician to talk (or tune an instrument) while another was playing or singing.
.. 2. The music is primarily Irish, but other kinds are welcome if they don't try to dominate. Every once in while, somebody might do a current rock song as a change of pace, but most nights not. Stan Rogers' "Mary Ellen Carter" was a frequent favorite at one session. I've been complimented on my "Gaelic" singing after singing a Russian song. Scottish was always welcome, and a couple of Scottish songs were standards. The occasional American "Old-Timey" tune was OK, but there were separate Old Timey sessions and gatherings on other nights. Every once in a while I might sneak in a Morris tune.
.. 3. Variety is important. People didn't all try to play all the time. Taking turns, listening to each other, experiencing something new, even instruments jumping in or dropping out to vary the sound on a single tune... these were all important. Songs were as welcome as tunes. Many numbers were solos or with just a few individuals joining in; others were "all in" numbers Particular tunes were not always strung together in the same order as "sets", but people would often pick a next tune "on the fly".
.. 4. Everyone is welcome to participate. It was generally considered impolite for the same person to lead off two numbers in succession, unless there was clearly a request from a majority of listeners. (Even with "requests", a third round would have to wait for others to get their turn.) When "strangers" showed up, they were invited to join in, and not just "tag along". We were as anxious to hear something new from them as to have them play or sing along with us. Once a group from Amsterdam showed up and tried to just listen, because they didn't know much Irish music. We finally talked them into doing some of their Dutch stuff, and that was one of the nights Larry the bartender had to kick us out at 4 am (legal closing time in NYC). We would often invite folks in the "audience" to do something, anything. Nearly everybody has a "party piece". We heard many great songs that way, and even an occasional recitiation of poetry or a bit of a monologue from an Irish play. Others would surprise us by borrowing a fiddle or whistle, and occasionally someone would ask us to play for a step dance.
.. 5. Whoever starts a piece, "owns" it. If a singer doesn't want others joining in with harmony or instruments, then they don't. A shake of the head is enough, or a nod toward someone if (s)he wants to encourage them. Nods toward some and shakes toward others were respected. Whoever leads off a tune sets the tempo, and anyone who tries to play at a different tempo without a clear invitation from the starter to do so is not welcome. Different folks learn -- and like -- the same tune at different tempos; if it's not precisely the way you're used to it, that doesn't make it wrong. (And if you can't tell that you're speeding up, that's not an excuse; it means you're not paying attention.)
.. 6. Everyone is equal. Of course that isn't literally true, but it means that noone has special status, either higher or lower. The best musicians didn't dominate, and even the worst had their chance to lead something. (Generally, they were beginners, who would start a familiar tune so that others could join in. Gradually they got better and more daring.) Because we took turns -- though nothing as rigid as going one-by-one around the table, -- even a real "disaster" was soon forgotten.

Of course, there were incidents where individuals overstepped these rules. But we had a feeling of community, and if they persisted, the group would bluntly tell them to stop.

There were a few local sessions in the Irish community which were quite exciting, but largely unknown to oustsiders, and these were great. But the session every Monday night at the Eagle Tavern was the best known; it was advertised in the Village Voice as a regular event, and folks showed up who had heard of it as far away a Japan and Australia. There were a number of us regulars at the Eagle who had not started playing the music in our childhood, but there were also a number who had, as well as the occasional visitor from Ireland, or Chicago, or somewhere else with a close-knit Irish community. Some of these were big names, though they generally wished to remain anonymous in the session.

One thing to be clear about is that all these sessions were welcomed by the pub owners. Lots of folks would come just to listen, and they would drink (and eat, if food was available). These were money-making propositions, and musicians were encouraged with free beer (or occasionally something stronger, if the bartender was feeling generous). Nor were we considered an imposition by "the regulars"; we and those who came to hear us became "the locals".

Well, eventually other Irish "sessions" started popping up (no one was yet calling them "Celtic" or "Keltic") that were a little different. These were generally small, semi-closed groups who got together to play and informally "hold court" before those who came to listen. Strangers and stragglers were not excluded per se, but the "regulars" could decide to be either welcoming or not. I was generally welcome if I mainly just played along, and even a song once in a while was OK, but never close to as many as the "regular" singer(s). One point I want to make, though, is that there was still a good mix of tunes and singing, "all-ins" and solos, and there were no set lists, printed music, directors, or the like. Those -- if they existed -- were for "clubs", not "sessions". And no topheavy concentration on fast reels.

One special session developed in "later" years, and I think it's still going. That was started -- and is presided over -- by flutist Joanie Madden, for the sole purpose of providing music and an opportunity for folks to do the dances known as Sets. (There is barely room in Flanagan's for 3 sets, if they really know what they're doing. People take turns.) Any musician is welcome to join in, and even to suggest particular tunes, but it's all for the dancers and the particular kind of tune they need for each part of each dance.

I haven't been to a session in New York for nine years now, but on trips back I've been to sessions in Connecticut and Virginia, and they still have the same format I described above. Two sessions in Copenhagen are somewhat different, both from that and from each other, though I've been to sessions in Aarhus (another Danish city) and a few in Sweden which fit the "old" mold, except that in a couple of them the "audience" is not quiet. I've also been to a few wonderful sessions in England with similar unspoken "rules", and varying proportions of Irish, English, and other musics. And one where folks took turns doing numbers and a "leader" determined who would be asked to go next.

So, what about the rest of you?

Well our little session in the north-east of England has a similar format to what Jim has been saying with all the unspoken rules. They are not rules but just straight-forward day to day politeness.

Ours is fairly 99% irish tunes with about 3/4 songs thrown in. No-one leads the session as we don't need anyone to do that as we are ever so *polite* up here. As we have been playing together for a few years we are fairly comfortable with each other and more or less take turns to play with everyone *hopefully* joining in.

We are only a small session with about 8 to 10 players and although not a closed session we don't get a lot of people passing by as we are off the beaten track as far as transport goes.

Cozy is the word I would use to describe our session.

Sharron

Hey Jim,
now I am offended
You mention all kind of great sessions.
I remember one , was'nt it last year more or less in June in San Sebastina ?

What has been this ? I guess a unformal session, but a very spontantous one :

An English Concertina Palyer, one more Irish, a Spanis and a French Fiddler, an Irish Guitar and Manolin POlayer and singer, an IOrish Lady singing, another Irish young Lady, paying the Manolin too, occasionally a Bodhran and an Ameriocan English, Anglo Concertina Player and fantastic Tin Whistle Player.

I only remember that the thing started about 10.30 p.m. and it finished about 3.30 am and the bar-keeper had really a problem to stop the musicibnas.

No pause, some beer and some short visit to the toilet.

I think it will be difficult to beat. and you do not remember it ?

Well, I understand that it might not well fit into this topic, because of the lack of rules, perhps ?

My family and I wiull not forget it. Thaks.

Cordially
Joachim

I'm sorry I forgot to mention it. Certainly no slight was intended.

Yes, I remember San Sebastian fondly. A great session! And I think very much in the spirit I described... with me being the visitor.

And I also have warm memories of our musical evening at the cider house.

central MO, here.

I can't speak for the regular jam sessions, but the slow jam sessions are held weekly, in someone's living room (always the same person's, she is not a musician, but she is BRAVE!)

We have photocopies of tunes, with the kind of unspoken understanding that it's best if we get away from relying on the sheet music as soon as possible. we go around the room and everyone picks a tune in turn.

we usually have

1 PA
1 bodhran/spoons/bones player
4 fiddle players
2 whistle players
2 guitar players
1 concertina player -- me
1 tenor recorder player
1 BA player (rare)

it's all Irish or Scottish.

we're also starting a song jam. my dream is to combine them all at some point...

Well here in Lancaster I'm spoilt for choice really. If I restrict myself to a 4 mile radius:-

Tuesday I can go to the Irish session 5 doors away which I keep meaning to do, but the tunes played have been a restricted sub-set of irish tunes on the couple of occasions that I have gone. They seem to have listened to a lot of Altan records!
The musicians are excellent though. I think I shall have to go with the minidisk one night so that I can get a head start. No dots here.

Wednesday night we play for the John o' Gaunt Morris practice and all sorts of tunes are played whilst the dancers get their breath back. We sometimes use the dots for infrequently payed tunes.

Thursday night is the "everything folkish" session 5 doors away where all sorts of traditions are played, English, Playford, Northumbrian, Breton, Swedish, Welsh, etc.
Instruments include English and Anglo, melodian, pipe and tabor, English bagpipes, clarinet, recorders, harp, guitar etc. Occasionaly one or other of the intellectual types will pass round some dots for tunes that they have uncovered during some of their research. No one plays from it there and then but we might go off and learn it for the future.

Friday night is the folk session at Halton which includes song as well as tune. Sometimes people sing from printed words (not music), though they might request a starting note from an instrument. This usually starts a debate about do they mean the first note of the tune or the key note of the tune.

Sunday night is the folk club in Lancaster which may have the occasional tune thrown in. This is the only session that goes round the room in order, everthing else is "jump in". Seeing as we sometimes decide that the next turn round the room will have a theme it can be useful to have words with you as a prompt!

Robin Madge

Robin:

That you have any session five doors down is incredible. BUT TWO?!?!?!

You must have lived right in a past life.

Sounds like a very lively scene,

ldp

Sounds like the one I lucked into when I attended a conference at Lancaster U. in '96. It was wonderful! (I don't usually get to play Playford with other people, except at a dance.)

Robin, would you have been there, then?

Nobody passing notes that time, but I remember one fellow in particular. He arrived rather late, wearing a suit, and brought a silver flute. He played it with styling ranging from jazz to traditional Irish. He also played on someone else's wooden flute.

Jim: "Robin, would you have been there, then?"


I have only been in Lancaster properly for about two years, but have been there off and on for about four.

Could be that the flute player was Laurie Johnson. Small to medium build, Belfast accent with his head growing through his haircut! He has made an off-handed offer to arrange some music for a concertina band at some time, as he runs a brass band and arranges for it. I'm going to remind him some day.

Robin Madge

Robin, where is "5 doors away". We're coming up to the area soon to see Anne's mum near Milnethorpe and our mates in Heysham.

Chris

I don't recall hearing him speak, but it sure sounds like the right fellow.

I doubt he'll remember me, but tell him "hi", just the same.