So, Ive been playing the fiddle for quite some years and know a good load of tunes. Im happy with my fiddle playing, but I most enjoy playing with a small group, usually a flutist friend and my girlfriend on C#/D box. Ive been planning to take up the concertina at some point, and I've been playing around with a Stagi 20 button, and have gotten some tunes down on that instrument, despite the limited range. Ive been saving for a mid-range instrument, and have about enough now for something like and Edgley or Tedrow, or possibly a mahogany Lachenal or Jones. I could save a bit more and get a rosewood Lach as well.

My plan is to buy one of these instruments and put a down payment on a Sutner or Dipper soon after. Because of this plan, Im more concerned with playability and responsiveness than true concertina tone, as by the time ive played enough to consider myself a serious player, I'll have a top quality instrument.

Which would be the best choice for the meantime? I like the sound of the older instruments, but do they play as crisply as an Edgley? I know opinions would be varied, but I need to inform my decision as there aren't many concertinas (or concertinists) around to compare with.

If you prefer not to voice your opinions openly, please PM me.

Thanks!

Your absolute best bet would be to see if there's anyone around your area with an Edgley, Tedrow, or Morse. I don't think you can go wrong with any of them, and it really comes down to which speaks to you more. Also, you'll want to figure out what kind of accidental row arrangement you want, Jeffries or Lachenal. The Jeffries is supposed to be better for Irish, but I like the orderly-ness of the Lachenal.
But I am still a neophyte player, so with a grain of salt with that opinion with regards to the layout. I think the board will support me on the high quality of all of the brands I've mentioned.
Also, I think Mr. Wim Wakker makes an instrument with traditional reeds along the same quality as a Suttner; as well as a couple of state-side manufacturers who make traditionally reeded instruments -- so don't count them out, either.

I can't speak to the quality of the older instruments.

The Wakker's Ive looked at look quite nice as well, though I have a while to decide. Mr. Edgely lives not far from where I am in Canada, and a friend of mine has one of his instruments, but I haven't been able to compare it to a Lachenal yet.

As a owner of one Edgley (24key C/G, 2006) and some Lachenals including Connor rebuild one, I try to put an personal opinion.

Mechanical property like key noise, key spring etc:
Edgley and Connor is far better than restored Lachanals I tried. I can easily play rolls on Edgley and Connor.

Reed responsiveness:
Edgley is fast.
Some good Lachenals are even fast but I think they are rare. I once tried My friend's instrument which has that quality.
My Lachenals are not so responsive and think these are typical level.

Tone:
Rebuild Lachanal and restored Lachenal have quite similar sound from listening position. But from playing position, I can feel more reverb from restored one than rebuild one. These have relatively quiet, warm sound than Edgley. I like these sound but it is personal preference.
Edgley has brighter and crispy sound as you know.


Vintage instrument would have wide variations in sound and playability even if they are restored. So if you are targetting a topquality instrument finally, I presonally recommend Edgley this time. You said you are not far from Edgley, it sounds good. I visited Edgley in 2005 before I made an order. Good person to deal with :-)


--
Taka

either would be good, but a dipper may take you a very long time indeed, so an edgley would be less trouble! the only benefit a lachenal would have would be zero wait time, unless you could find a used edgley.

of course, you could just have some fun, place an order on a dipper, buy a jeffries, and then have two wonderful concertinas when you're done!

I have to be a little bit careful here, because lovers of hybrid concertinas get awfully defensive about the sound, but to my taste a good Lachenal sounds nicer than any accordion-reeded concertina ever made. The rosewood-ended boxes in particular have a beautiful sweetness of tone that I really love. My first anglo was a Rosewood ended Lachenal, and I always regretted selling it. Now, I have a particularly nice 40-button C/G that combines that sweetness with an unusually slick (for a Lachenal) action. There's some good Laches out there, and it's worth searching them out.


A policy I have been advocating for years. Mind, you do have to be able to afford the Jeffries in the first place. If you have any, selling your spouse and children into slavery can be a quick money earner.

Chris

Oh im sure I'll end up selling a limb or something some day to aquire a Jeffries. Actually, one of the first concertinas I ever had my hands on was a Jeffries. Just having graduated, Ill have to put that off till I have a "real" job. Theres no question that I'll put a payment on a top quality instrument once I start learning, but right now Im trying to decide between looking for a good Lachenal, or going with one of the hybrid makers. I don't mind the wait time of the hybrid makers, since I'll be in the field doing research all summer.

When I bought mine, The shop had a Connor which had Lachenal reeds but was otherwise a new box. It had the best tone of all those I tried - various makes of hybrid - but the reeds were slow speaking, especially at the bass end, even for me as a relative beginner so I ended up with a Morse.

Although the shop I went to did not have an Edgely, all the other hybrids I tried were very similar and I chose the Morse because for me it was the most comfortable to play and I have no reason to regret my decision.

Geoff

Tired of my stagi, I just woke up one morning, looked at my bank balance and gave Bob Tedrow a call. I ordered a standard (30 key Jeffries sys) C/G in the middle of Feb '08 (I think) and I got it some time in Apr. It's fast (the air valve and bellows deliver at something approaching the speed of light) and has a nice "honk" to it. I was used to the "standard" layout, but I now enjoy the Jeffries layout--especially in the keys of D and A. I'm still a tyro, and confine my playing to my living room, but I think it would make a good session choice as it's quite strident--a lot of bang for the buck.
Kevin

Well, my understanding was that the plan was to get a playable instrument in the under $2k range now, and to get the uber-cool top-o-th'-line instrument a few years down the road. How many vintage instruments are out there for under $2k that won't take another 50% or more of the purchase price to make playable? A week or two back, a Jeffries went for an insane amount of bling (though it was appraised, with a dinky trumpet, at about $1k or so). Vintage prices are unreal (if you can find one for sale) far more often than not except for the old German ones; and as interesting as I think they are, I can't honestly recommend one of those over a Morse, Tedrow, or Edgley.

Vintage instruments have vintage parts. And IMHO - they may lack the speed, tightness and sensitivity of a new (built in the last 20 years) instrument. I have a whole pile of concertinas 1/2 new 1/2 old and what the old ones have in honk the new ones beat them out in tightness and sensitivity. My favorite 'new' instrument is the Tedrow Zephyr. Its the size of a Jeffries 30 key, very loud, very sensitive and fast.

If i make it to your gig next week, I'll bring my Rochelle (and the Henry Harley just for fun), and you can give them a try.

It sounds like you need to have the vintage instruments serviced. It isn't a big deal for a decent restorer to make an instrument tight and responsive again. That way you get a responsive instrument and that vintage concertina sound.

Paul,

I could not agree more, There is nothing to say that a mid range or better traditional instrument, properly cared for, should not play as well (or better) than an equivalent modern instrument. There appears to be some 'unfortunate' generalisations in this thread.

The only caution on the older instruments is that a majority were not originally tuned to A=440hz, and the reeds will all have been re-tuned to the modern pitch. This need not be (and normally is not) a problem but occaisionally someone has a go with a grinder, course file, hammer and chisel; road breaker etc, and reeds are thinned out making them weak and not too clever.

Dave

Had my 1915 vintage Wheatstone English treble re-tuned from old pitch to A440 25 years ago, no "weakness" detected yet and it still sounds great today.

The thing to remember in all of this is that much of it goes to personal taste; this seems particularly true when one is trying to figure out what one's first "serious" concertina should be. Ultimately, I agree with those who say that there is something special about the tone of a rosewood Lachenal, but at the same time, many of them (but not all) are not as responsive as many of us demand for playing in Irish sessions (Of course if you aren't planning on playing in an Irish Session, then ignore all this ). Of course, good rosewood Lach's are probably pricey enough these days as well.

I have an Edgley personally. I prefer the feel to the Tedrow's (my own opinion only) I have tried, and it is plenty fast for most things I play. There is a sticky button that I need to address at some point, but it is the A#/G# so I don't use it that often and is not a big concern to me. Otherwise, action is fast and the tone is quite nice. I have also liked the Morse's I have tried. I also have a Marcus that is out on loan right now... It is very air tight but a smidge slower than the others I have tried (I suspect that for chord heavy English music it would really come into its own), but not slow enough to be a major problem for Irish music.

--
Bill

I'm going to do a +1 on this. A good concertina properly maintained will last for centuries. That includes old concertinas, new concertinas and concertinas formerly in ropey condition renovated by a good concertina technician. I've said before and I'll say it again. We don't own these things; we are their custodians for a time.

Chris

God talk about pushing buttons - OK OK OK
Quality has nothing to do with it either!!! That should add another 22 posts to this thread - LOL!

Well, if Lachenals were good enough for musicians like Mrs Crotty and I think, the late Kitty Hayes - I think they should be pretty good for most of us to play decent music on.

There is also the additional pleasure of playing an instrument that has been well played before - like living in an old house.

Hi
Unfortunately my old house (1886 and younger than my Scates concertina ) leaks and the wind whistles thru places it shouldn't-perhaps I need to give it the same care that I give to my concertinas -but you don't get much of a tune from it
chris

Have a sense of perspective, man! Just think how wet your concertinas would get without your house!

Chris

Indeed both of those ladies did much of their playing on 20-key German concertinas, only getting their Lachenals in later years, whilst Bernard O'Sullivan told me how Mrs. Crotty turned down a 4-row Jeffries off Ned Falvey (which Bernard then got) and chose her Lachenal in preference!

Sorry, this was meant as a reply to a PM from topic starter. Probably doesn't belong here. Please pardon my newbie enthusiasm (and technical ineptitude)

Just a minor nitpick... I know the Irish have a casual relationship with time, but the last I checked, it was Mrs. Crotty and not Kitty Hayes that was the late one...

--
Bill


Now I have to amend my own posting.. I haven't been able to keep up with the board for the last month or so because of work, my upcoming wedding, etc.. I had a bad feeling so did a search.. It is sad indeed to hear that Kitty Hayes has passed on. Heaven is now a richer place and we on Earth will miss her. I never knew her, but I enjoyed her playing immensely. Lets hope harp is not the only instrument allowed in heaven. So they are both late now.

--
Bill

Not to put you on the spot Bill and I wish I didn't have to say it, but maybe check again, here

Thanks Peter,
I am sorry.. I haven't been keeping up on here lately as much as I should.. too much going on in my life. At least she along with a few others helped keep concertina music alive back in the 60s and 70s when many didn't care about it. The world is a richer place for her having been here, and a poorer place because she has moved on.

--
Bill

I agree. In many Irish session here, people are playing fast. And for me, it is hard ( not impossible though ) to join on that fast music with my Lach.
I thought that thread starter said he is playing Irish music but it seemed to be my reading mistake..


I also agree this. When I play some tunes for myself, at home, I always take my Lachenal ( greatly serviced by A.C. Norman ) which has not-so-fast but lovely, sweeter sound .


--
Taka

It ain't necessarily so. I have a sneaking suspicion that many early Lachenal concertinas were huffy chuffy and marginally responsive when they were brand new.

I once bought on looks alone, a Lachenal that was almost dead mint and unplayed. It was stored properly and had no mold or detritus apparent.

It was disappointing and underwhelming to the last reed.

Bob

On the other hand there were many good ones, especially some of the rosewoods. I suspect this variability could also be true of the new ones. I think the Button Box will tell you that their current concertinas are quite an improvement on their early ones. Is that not true of yours Bob?

So you have decided on a system? Sounds like you'r going for the anglo, I suggest you give Mr. Tedrow a call and put in an order one of his Zephyr boxes.

Of course I'm still waiting for that Tedrow-Crane duet, a fine box it will be.

Sorry Bob but the reaction you could expect would be: 'You 'd say that wouldn't you?'

Some of the Lachenals (which ones? Mahogany ended, Rosewood ones or their more high end models?) are not fast or particularly great, there are some that are, original ones and 'hot rodded' ones.

My son started learning on a bottom end Mahogany ended Lachenal that wasn't the fastest (but it didn't need to be either) but it sounded nicer (to my ear) than a 'hybrid' and it served him well before he moved up to a nicer Crabb.

So, what you are implying is just about the same sort of blanket statement as for example 'all hybrids sound like little accordeons' and we've had long discussions about how right/wrong that statement is haven't we?

Well said.

Chris

Hey thanks for the update - No Problem - and nothing personal, its all in a days fun.

oh man, i had no idea....

it just hit me like a ton of bricks. i am totally speechless.

from experience, my vote will always be for speed & responsiveness (in all of these: button action, reeds, & bellows) over "authentic" voice, every time. i love "authentic" concertina reeds, but the accordion-reeded sound has its own loveliness, and the advantages to the development of one's playing---yes, speed, but not just speed---phrasing, ease of ornamentation, expression, etc---of a fast, easy, responsive accordion-reeded concertina versus a more labored, huffy-wuffy concertina-reeded instrument, would be no contest. of course, not all "hybrids" are optimally fast & responsive, that's the rub......

I agree that a good new box with accordion reeds will be better than a middling old box with funky concertina reeds. I doubt you could get an old Anglo for $3,000 that would be better than a modern Kensington, made by Dana Johnson. His concertinas have true concertina reeds, firm and quick action, great design, and beautiful construction. The problem is they are hard to get, with a lengthening wait list.
Have Tedrow, Edgley, et. al., considered making a box with real concertina reeds?
Such an instrument would certainly be attractive to players.
Does anybody sell sets of concertina reeds?
Would the increase in price not justify exploring that possibility?

Jurgen Suttner advertises sets of concertina reeds as well as other parts

Ah, but what about a fast, easy, responsive accordion-reeded concertina versus a fast, easy, responsive concertina-reeded concertina. Not so easy then, is it?

Chris

Am I not right in recalling Cocus, that you play a Jeffries? So presumably you have a preference for an older instrument? It's a curious thing in a world where most consumer goods drop in value as soon as they leave the store and are mostly worthless with a year or so.

To the contrary, I'd say it would be VERY easy.

Chris

I'm sure that we all have *considered* it. It doesn't take much consideration to realize that making real concertina reeds is either incredibly labor intensive to make them one-off by hand or very expensive to make them by machine (tens of thousands of dollars). Providing that one has the time and money (and can deal with the slow to no-payback depending on volume), both scenarios take a lot of skill and knowledge to develop the reed design and to be able to fabricate them well.


I think only Suttner does for $1000/set. I don't know about their qualities... Each concertina maker likes their boxes to sound and respond in certain ways which has a lot to do with the reeds. For instance a set of reeds optimized for Irish sparkle and bite may not be a good choice for the sensitivity and sonority required for classical music.


Depends upon the maker and the market. Prices for new concertina-reeded 30-button anglos range from $3000 to about $7000. Can hybrid makers extend themselves to make concertina reeds cost-effectively? Everyone I know who's embarked on making concertina-reeded concertinas hasn't even come close to breaking even. But they don't have to, and they make concertinas for the joy of making them. Those who can't afford to be so magnanimous would have to price their boxes well beyond the market price... or not get into the venture.

Getting into making such boxes cost-effectively would require a lot of effort for things to come together *just so*, and would depend upon considerable volume and steady sales.

-- Rich --

Um, that choice exists now. What you left out was the wait time that is measured in years instead of months and the price tag that is at least 1 to 4 thousand bucks higher. So now it's a more complicated choice again.
Time and money matter. Always have, always will.

And I know for a fact that Rich has given this a lot of thought. So his opinion is worth listening to.

Chris

But a good vintage intrument restored and ready to go vs a hybrid? No contest I believe.

For the same price?

Even at double the price it would be no contest. I could easily have bought my son a new hybrid for half the price of the one he is playing now. The thought never even crossed my mind.

Does your son know how lucky he is to have a father like you?

He was twelve when he got his present concertina, while he 'd be practising away we'd sit in the other room with a silly grin on our faces from enjoying the sound and tone of the concertina. Sums it all up doesn't it?