There have been a few occasions when it would have been convenient if I could have played my AC from a standing position. I've tried this but have had very little luck as, when standing, I have to support the anglo with my right and left little fingers, which makes it darn difficult to play F# on the left hand inner row. Also, when standing, the bellows tend to flop about and I get very poor control. I've seen videos of folks playing while marching, and of some who bend over and hold the anglo against the thigh, while standing, to get the support you get when seated (I found that to be pretty uncomfortable too after a short time). I also knew one player who played standing and used his left thumb and left little finger to grasp the anglo and steady it, while his right arm worked the bellows. I've also tried to play standing with one leg up on a chair, so that I could still support the concertina near my knee, but I found this is tough on my hip joint of the leg not on the chair because it supports most of my weight then (bit o' arthritis there) if I do that for more than a minute or two.

So, while the vast majority of my playing will always be from a seated position, I'd like to know how those of you, who play successfully while standing, do it. Any tricks, techniques, advice would be appreciated. I wish to learn to do this without compromising my fingering positions, if that is possible. Thanks.

Potential solutions:

Get a Céilí. They're light, and I really like writing out the word Céilí. It's the accent mark thingies.

Weightlifting. Many repetitions of the 12 ounce curl won't quite cut it.

On a more serious note, one of the old tutors (I think it was Sedgwick) suggested tieing a ribbon around both ends, and supporting part of the weight from your neck. I think the Salvation army had some kind of strap rig kind of thing for their people, too.

Maybe you can arch your palm a bit so that the weight is on the back of your hand and heel of your palm instead of on the top of your hand between thumb and finger. But this could get a bit uncomfortable after a little while, I'd guess.

Or you could hold the instrument up around face level, which brings the weight to the heel of your hand more. But that does look a bit goofy. (I do this at home when I'm chasing the cats. Poor cats.)

.
It's been discussed gazillion times.
I think there are two ways of acheivnig it
One is time. With time you'll be more and more comfortable with the instrument and gradually learn to play it any way you want.
It seems to be the mainstream.
The other way, ingenious, is to build the custom strap-bracket system, the way it is described here

Which is exactly what I did (get a Morse, that is, not fiddle with accents). I find my Jeffries 38 button definitely too weighty to consider using in north west morris, which can require you to play without break for half an hour or more in a processional. So I got a Céilí (no fiddling with accents that time, just cut-and-paste). My partner Anne got an Albion, same reason.

Not an option always available on cost grounds, but nice if you can do it and you have the satisfaction of supporting the Rich Morse Free Reed Development Fund.

Chris

I have always failed to understand how players can maintain adequate control of the instrument whilst playing standing. I find. like many others, that the natural position for my metal ended anglo is to play seated, with the right hand end of the instrument taken on the right thigh. Perhaps left handed players would prefer the reverse of this? Presumably the average wooden ended instrument is significantly lighter than mine, which would put less strain and fatigue on the arm muscles but still do nothing to contribute towards overall control of the instrument. If height is a factor sit on a stool with appropriate foot rest for the right (or left) foot to bring the thigh to the correct level for support of the instrument.

Maybe this will help, if you missed it first time around:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KEKl8odYlUc&...38&index=10

Regards,
Peter.

You'll notice from Peter T's video that he's playing with the bellows very "fanned," to help stop that happening.

I mostly play to accompany my singing, so I'm playing stood up pretty much all the time. I find it's easier, but then I've done it pretty much from day one. I find it awkward to have one end "fixed" on my knee, and much prefer the added mobility of playing stood up, and squeezing from both ends into the middle.

The link on that page to Chris's page on Goran's ideas no longer works. The information on how the thing is actually built is now here:

Gangrene from playing English concertina? I wonder how many documented cases have been reported...

Truth be told, the English is the easiest of all concertinas to play standing up.

Hard case on ground.
Left foot on hard case.
Left side of Anglo resting on left knee.

This works for me.

Some people I've seen play holding the Anglo up in front of the face making a rough right-angle with their elbows in order to support the weight.

From what I've seen, JK tends to play holding his Anglo with his hands sort of pointing down to the ground. Normally this would quickly result in an expensive Anglo Concertina jigsaw, but it seems that the laws of gravity are put on hold for him.

Not hard with practice, and you need to ensure that the wrist/hand straps are adjusted correctly for you. I tend to play with the heel of my hand pushing on the body of the anglo and the back of my hand pusing on the wrist/hand strap.

I find that staying in one position is not good for the muscles particularly if playing when standing and so I keep moving concertina around

Position 1 - Woody described with left foot on case and left end resting against thigh (Bellows below waist)
Position 2 - Put hands through straps lift hands so that bellows are just below neck height - this is comfortable for me and corners of anglo frame seem to "nestle" at the base of my palms helping with feeling of security. Weight passes straight down fore arms which are almost verticle.
Position 3 - about halfway between 1 and 2 with bellows above waist line (as in my profie pic).

I'm no three stone weakling so perhaps that also explains why I don't find it too difficult. It does depend what tune you are playing obviously. I have seen JK fling the concertina round his head, but he sits down to play the four part fugue for example.

Thanks for all your helpful comments. I'm not in position to order a Ceili now and don't think I would anyway. I've tried one and find I really like the heft of the slightly heavier Edgley and Herrington concertinas I play currently (and am on a wait list for a Kensington, also not a "light" concertina). Peter T., I watched your video on You Tube and noticed that you used your little finger on each hand to support the concertina throughout the piece. This is a method I find that does tend to work, but I don't want to lose the use of my little finger to play notes and the low end of some chords that are best reached with the little finger on the left. I don't play Morris, mostly ITM and liturgical music from time to time with American pop/folk standards thrown in once in awhile.

Using a foot rest doesn't work for me as it puts most of my weight on one leg which is tough on my hip. But from those of you who play standing it sounds like I should find a comfortable standing position and practice developing the control of the instrument. Not a silver bullet solution, but perhaps the most obvious one. I may try to mess around with some neck strap device or something else to support the concertina to help me develop the control I will need. I'll work on the whole thing. Practice, practice, practice, then. Thanks again for the suggestions.

I find there are a number of positions which work for me. One is with the concertina up near the face, with the forearms at or near vertical. Another is with the arms pointing down, and in this position it is possible to get some support for on end by pressing it against the thigh. In both cases, a lot of the weight is being supported by the skeleton rather than the muscles. Even so, I may switch between the two, and intermediate positions, to stop the arms getting tired.

John K often uses his little finger to support the instrument but is able to free it when he needs to use it. It probably helps that he has hands like shovels! If I were to use my little finger for support, it's such a stretch that it would restrict the movement of the other fingers, so I never do.

Having the right strap tension is also important, but as always its a compromise between a firm grip on the instrument and enough mobility to reach the fingering.

On stage, I always have a high stool with me. I mostly play standing, but for tricky tunes on either melodeon or concertina where I find I need to support the instrument more I can either sit down completely or half-stand with one leg raised (the stool has a foot-bar) but my weight supported. I think this looks better on stage than sitting on a normal chair, especially when the rest of the band is standing. Not very practical for processional morris, though!

I remain baffled as to why anyone would wish to play the instrument standing when there is an option of playing seated.

My metal ended Anglo weighs in at 2lb 140z which may perhaps be above average.....I know not.

In addition to lack of control and needless strain on bellows and wrist straps I would look upon playing standing as a form of torture.

If the absence of a raised stage and audience visibilty are issues why not use a high stool with cross bar at appropriate height to allow the supporting thigh to rest at a suitable height and angle. A back rest would be a bonus.

The advantages would surely be evidenced in an improved quality of performance.

Concentrate on the music and leave the gymnastics to the likes of Mick Jagger !

Yes; I don't recall ever using my left little finger, and only use the right one when needed. Instead, to play the low notes, I move my hand and use the ring finger.

Regards,
Peter.

Not always an option when playing for the Morris. I used to hate those processions which seemed to go on for ever.

My Anglo is a similar weight, and the only option, to avoid fatigue/pain when playing for Morris was to keep it on the move rather than have a fixed playing position. Even so, I've experienced a blistered thumb (air valve) and sore back of hands (straps) on many occasions!

I've just remembered why I no longer play for the Morris; the musician is very much taken for granted until the time when he/she is not available for a tour!

Peter.

PS - I much prefer to play seated.

I would just like to learn to play the concertina - standing or seated.

I've no dog in this fight, but with my continuing problems with my hands, I had taken the step of installing wrist straps on my English. Great relief allowing me to play for a full evening's session and get back to practicing my prefered 3 hours a day.

With my bluegrass band, standing is visually important at times and connects me to my compadres. Even with the straps I was unsure how standing and not throwing the pressure back on my thumbs and pinkies would be achieved....until I saw a video clip of Jody with his string band. There he is holding that wicked heavy Jeffries standing up, but he holds the instrument just below waist level (a bit bent over, but it looks to be his dancing self-expression).

So with a relaxed straight back with my chest up in singing position and my arms below my waist allowing the English to hang from the wrist straps I was able to put in two hour and a half sets switching back and for between box and banjo at our last gig. There was no loss of control or finger speed.

I could go on... More than once in my life I have come upon, while carrying my concertina, a standing fiddler who, with a few exchanged nods and glances, invited me to join in. "Let me just go and find a chair" would not have been the thing to say at that point, verbally or non-.

Edtied for typo.

Depends on the situation, doesn't it, a far as having to stand or looking for a chair?
I doubt that Noel Hill or Cillian Vallely - or Paddy Keenan or Brian MacNamara -- would feel awkward about asking for a chair.
But then, who would ask them to play standing?

May be it's just me but I believe that a concertina played sat down and anchored on on leg does not allow the player full expression. For instance I find volume dynamics far easier when stood with the concertina fee at both ends. If you look at the likes of JK or Alistair Anderson they play with all bodies from the toes up. Maybe their is a difference between the English style and the Irish one?

I felt the same as you, until I recorded myself playing standing. No difference in dynamics whatsoever! Dynamics and expression don't depend on whether you are seated or standing.
One has to work on it, and the work is hard. Much harder than learning where the notes are or how to cross-finger difficult scale.
And it has to start from the onset, unless you want to learn to play, then unlearn to play and learn again. It's that stuff of fine polishing, where extra 90% of effort gives you only 1% of gain, but that 1% makes the music.

I disagree


I agree


Luckily for me I play an English so the delights of cross-fingering are a bafflement (mind you cross-rowing on the melodeon is more my forte)


This is a wise viewpoint, unfortunately as a self taught musician I have spent the last 30 years learning/unlearning/relearning. I don't know how to know what is right for me until I try it and I refuse to be told what is right.

I like this very much! You cannot guess how many years as a singer it took me to learn just this and declair my freedom from the pedogogical blather of a number of learned experts that tied me up in knots until I could barely make a sound.

Kind of misses David's point doesn't it? He was invited on the spur of the moment to play. Why not join in and enjoy, standing or no. One fine afternoon of playing happened with David, Jim Besser and myself at NEFFA a year and a month back. No chairs to be had on the lawn, so we found a quiet spot, stoood there and made music for I recon an hour on a very high and convivial level. Both these lads can by the way play the sparks off a burning log, sitting or standing.

If the music is of interest and you needs a chair, get one, or squat on the ground, a tree stump or whatever. We have just a few moments on this earth to make love or music (both pretty close for me) and a damned long time to be dead.

It's OK to disagree, but it will not do you any good.
Those crazy Russian bayan players play seated. One can argue that playing accordion standing adds to expressiveness.
Compared to those players at the top of food chain, who play seated, added expressiveness of playing standing doesn't count. Clearly they know something we don't about expressiveness, and standing is not part of it. One can argue the opposite, that standing with concertina flopping in your hands diminishes expressiveness and adds calamity, as the instrument is not firmly anchored.
But anchor or not, expressiveness is result of a talent and much work, not the holding technique. So far my Notepad Finale plays back with more expressiveness than me. Much to my dismay.

Of course they do, those things weigh a ton!

Edited for speeling...

In Mr. Worrall's thread about his forthcoming article about the Anglo in Angle-land, Mr. Chambers has a link to an old black and white film showing sword dancers, second page of the thread I think. There's an Anglo player there who is standing (and walking about), and you can get a sense of his technique. You have to register to get the clip, which some people dislike. But that player moves his Anglo from the neck high position, down to the hip level position, and then back again, sometimes moving the instrument around in a circle. It wasn't a Céilí, either, one can safely assume. It wasn't a slow tune, either, he was pretty quick on it. I couldn't make out what his little fingers were doing though, my monitor seems to play all movies with too much darkness.

Not a ton, really. Some meager 15kilos. And sometimes they do play sanding, if necessary.

Watching the clip again, he seems to be using his left hand little finger to steady the instrument anyway, though that may not be clear from the only still that's available: https://www.britishpathe.com/stills.php?id=7787&searchword=miner%20dancers&searchword=miner%20dancers&frame=85

By the way, you don't have to register with the Pathe site to view the stills, and if you click on the image you can see it as a high resolution enlargement.

Well a Wheatstone wooden-ended Anglo that I have here weighs 1Kg, so that's the equivalent of 15 concertinas (and we're discussing how heavy an Anglo is to play!) - so I think (metaphorically speaking) I'd call that "weighing a ton"...

Sanding?

I presume that's to be able to give a more smooth performance!

Chris

Perhaps not sanding, but definitely making good use of their Drills.

Generally, I prefer to play sitting down because I feel I have more control. I'd prefer to concentrate on the fingering and the music rather than on supporting the instrument. But there are times, particularly when playing for dancing, when you get more expression by involving your whole body, and you can only do that standing up. Standing can also be necessary for the purposes of giving a performance, which goes beyond merely making music.

Both JK and AA are performers as well as superb musicians. They need to be able to play standing in order to communicate with their audiences, often in folk clubs with no amplification or even a stage. Sitting down to play wouldn't have the same impact.

First there's the matter of practicality; sitting is just not an option for most Morris players. Just trying doing that in a processional (like the Woody Allen movie where he's a teenaged cello player in a marching band; every time he gets his instrument set up, the parade has passed him by.) Or playing for Northwest Morris in dances where the musicians circle the set (a wheelchair, maybe?) More and more, I find myself moving around -- to get a better view of the dancers I'm using as guides, to get closer to a wandering set so they can hear, to provide visual cues.

There's also a stylistic difference. English/harmonic players emphasize rhythmic punch and tend to use a lot of body english. Look at Big Nick Robertshaw playing for Morris or Jody Kruskal playing a contra dance; it's hard to picture these guys sitting sedately in a chair.

Irish players seem more focused on speed, control and precision; the ones I've seen aren't playing for dancers, and sitting seems in keeping with that style.

But for me, it's hard to play for dancers while sitting, at least the kinds of disreputable dancers I hang out with.

You could always ask an expert

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=...&messages=2

Assuming you man "standing", the only Russian bayan player I know any way well sits to play Bach and stands to play folk tunes. I behave analogously, but at a lower level, with my anglo - above a certain level of complexity in the music, I have to sit down and stabilise the concertina to get speed, accuracy AND expression.

And you CAN move your body to reinforce the expression when sitting. Pianists do it all the time, and so do good orchestral violinists. I once heard a Beethoven symphony played by an orchestra whose entire violin section sat "sedately" leaned back in their chairs. It was the most lack-lustre Beethoven I ever heard!

As to waving the concertina about while playing - no reason not to do that on your chair. On the front edge of your chair, that is. With your weight distributed beween the seat of your pants and the soles of your shoes.

Cheers,
John

And so do most of us. But that's only because we don't practice playing standing enough. The top professional players - John K, Brian Peters, Jody Kruskal for example - can get all that while standing.


But orchestral players usually aren't rockin' along to a chugging English step-hop hornpipe!


So why sit down? If you can do that seated, you can do it standing.

Well it is quite simple in fact:
For English music you stand, for Irish music you sit!
For other kinds of music you do whetever you want

Beethoven's Ninth, Second Movement.

I do it all the time(every weekend, at least) Though I practice sitting, when I am out on the job I am usually standing. Most of the time though, I am accompanying my partners singing, and on the choruses where we both sing, I play chords on the left hand, and that is not too difficult. When playing tunes like Irish trad, etc, I really would prefer to sit, the stability and freedom of movement that your knees afford can't be measured. However, when out I am usually standing(except at sessions), and what I do is to find the tightest setting on my handstraps where I can still reach all(or most!) of the keys comfortably(that is a relative term!) I have had to punch my own holes on the straps for this purpose, as the straps the way they come are basically "good enough the way they are for everybody", but, as you find out on the journey, customization is often necessary when it comes to comfort. Hope this helps, take care,
Don

They don't do it deliberately.
If you really into the music, you stop controlling yourself, so there you go. But wiggling your body and making grimaces is not equal to great music.
I don't understand the whole topic. Someone asked how to hold Anglo in the air. Two answers were straight forward and self-explanatory:
either just practice, or build a custom handle, whatever the system.
If you dig some topics, you can find my drawings with shoulder strap and a video I posted of making such s strap and playing standing with concertina firmly stabilized. Some use neck straps, some pinch the straps to the collar of the jacket. What's the use of such lengthy discussion?
2+2=4.
But what about 2+2 x 2=?
Whoever answer correctly is right.
Whoever answers incorrectly is wrong.

Playing anglo concertina whilst still standing? I didn't think anyone worried until the anglo player fell over and carried on playing.

I can't cope with playing anglo whilst standing - possibly 'cos I do use my little fingers (and more importantly, because I can play one-handed and have a slurp if I am sat down).

6
I am never wrong. Any apparent incosistencies are due to the deficiencies of reality.

BODMAS rules OK!

Whatever the nationality - do any of you sit to play the National Anthem?


Cheers,
John

Whatever the nationality - do any of you sit to play the National Anthem?


Cheers,
John

For the mathematicians:-
Reverse Polish notation rules KO!

Robin Madge

You know, after all this, I have to point out a few things I have realized that suggest that although I enjoy playing standing and do not shy away from it, there's something to be said for playing seated.

One is that although when I play standing I have no choice but to hold both ends in the air (ignoring the possibility of adding a neck strap), when I play seated I have the choice to rest one end on a knee (and we'll just forget, for the moment, about which end and which knee) or hold both ends in the air. But I always choose the end-on-knee option. It must be that something in me prefers that position, which is not available to me when standing.

Another is that although I always stand when playing for a performance of Morris dancing, sometimes I sit at Morris practice, particularly when I am tired.

Also, I have recently achieved two firsts: I performed in a high-level concert (the staff concert at the NorthEast Concertina Weekend in Amherst last month) and I recorded some tracks for a high-level recording project (Duet International). I did them both seated, and I suspect that I would have been rather hesitant to do either of them standing.

Edited for 2 typos.

I like a high bar stool with a couple of horizontal struts at different heights. With that I can stand or sit, using the struts in either stance to put a foot on and rest the concertina end on the knee. With a high stool you're not noticably lower thatn the other members of a group. For an evening on stage with a band I use my 4 concertina box, which has a 2 by 2 arrangement of pigeon holes for concertinas, as a foot-rest. It also has a tray that it sits on that holds the foot pedals.

Robin Madge