Hello

I am excited to be able to take a class with Edel Fox and Tim Collins in July at Irish Arts Week. I am wondering if anyone is familiar with how they run their classes that are continuous over a week.

I am familiar with Noel Hill's classes where you get one or more tunes a session and hustle out of there to learn the tune and try to play it for the next meeting....and so on for each class. It is intense and challenging, and for me leaves little time to do other activiities.

Do Edel and Tim run their classes that way? What can I expect, and anticipate?

Anyone else going to be in those classes in July?

Thanks,

Richard

Richard I have taken workshops with both, and will tell you that both are consummate teachers. I reviewed the Catskills class in the fall if you look at my old posts. You can expect to learn tunes of course, but with both you will learn "style". They are both very good at breaking down the mechanical parts of their own playing, and will "fix what ails you".

Thanks for the info. I'll probably be taking my first concertina class at the Catskills.

I also have done workshops with both. And very much appreciated both their personalities and their classes.
They (as many teachers do) learn you new tunes. But of course the most important thing is not the new tune itself but what they do or can be done playing that tune (ornamentations, variations, etc. etc.). I never did a Noel Hill workshop but certainly can recommend those by Edel and Tim. They are fun and I learned a great deal.
Would love to go myself again, but can not
Hermann

RIchard: I also have taken workshops from Edel Fox and Tim Collins at Irish Arts Week in the Catskills. Both are excellent, and you will be happy with whomever you choose. Here are my impressions.

I took a beginner workshop with Edel the first year that she taught. She is an excellent teacher and exceptional player, as well as a very nice person. She is flexible in her fingering, and she teaches by taking a new tune each session. She will choose reels and jigs, including slip jigs. She passes out the dots or at least will give the letters for the tune, and then she will play it slow then fast with and without ornaments. You will be expected to play it back the next day but some people opt out of that "performance." She will take the class as far as you want to take it. That was a bit of a challenge for some in the beginner class who were less interested in leaning, but I doubt that would be a problem in an intermediate class. Bottom line is that she is a geat player with a friendly approach, and a person who tries to get to know the students. She will teach as much as you want to learn, and she knows how to do it.


Tim Collins is a fabulous teacher, and extremely considerate. My experience with him is more through individual lessons than through workshops although I did attend his Catskills workshop for two days last year. In that workshop he took one tune and contintued to work on it by adding ornaments the day after he intially gave it to us. He is less about learning tunes, and more about learning to play the instrument. I have had individual lessons from Tim several times over the past couple of years, including three lessons at his home in Crusheen this past month. His approach is not to teach his style but to help you develop your style. As he puts it, we are all on an individual musical journey. He will help you find the trail markers for that journey. For me, that has meant much emphasis on rhythm, including a form of exercise that I am to do every practice for the next year with the promise that it will make a difference. So, at least in an individual lesson, Tim will work with your own ability and your sense of music, and will try to guide you to make the result musical.

I am signed up for Tim's intermediate workshop in the Catskills and look forward to seeing you there. I did not sign up for a second workhop because when I did that in the past, I found myself trying to learn tunes rather than enjoying all that the week has to offer. For me, one workshop a day is enough although it is always tempting to do more because of the collection of great teachers.

Alan

Hello

Thanks for the helpful information so far.

The above helps me know what to expect.

I will be taking Edel's intermediate class in the AM, and Tim's advanced in the PM.

It will be a bit intensive to do both properly but I want to take advantage of what is offered. I agree with you Alan that, as well, I want to have time and energy to take in all the peripheral events and music.

Thanks,

Richard

Wow this seems super cool. I like the fact that Tim Collins doesnt only "teach tunes", because I always said that you can learn tunes at home, but it's harder to learn technique by yourself. So I'm definitely going to try to get in Collin's class, and will see about the other.

I got a question, though. From those who attended the classes before, what's the difference between 'intermediate' and 'advanced' ? I think I would categorize myself as 'intermediate' concertina player, but always ended up wishing I took the advanced class because I do practice an hour or two mostly every day so I'm willing to put the effort into it.

Do you think it would be sensible for me to take an advanced class in the morning and one the evening? Would my brain overheat?

Hi

I am taking the intermediate class in the AM and the advance in the PM because I want to have the opportunity to learn from those players.

It is possible I will flounder in the intermediate class and humiliate myself in the advanced class.... That will be OK, I will handle it. But I am eager for useful critical attentions of good players.

Richard

Well, I'm mainly wondering if you will really get what I call advanced players in the advanced class. Most of the time, 'advanced' is actually intermediate, from my point of view, the really advanced players not taking lessons and playing in the pubs or sleeping instead :-) But maybe it's different for concertina and I'll also humiliate myself in the advanced class... but I'd rather humiliate myself than feeling sorry I didnt take the advanced class.

Hi

The folks who run Irish Arts Week have a quantifiable standard for each level. You should ask them.

I think for advanced it is: to have played 5 years and know 30 tunes. ...But that could be Intermediate.

Richard

Azalin- take the advanced class. No question about it. Take two advanced classes.
Anybody who can play Lads Unleashed on the concertina, no matter what speed,
is an advanced player. You have great facility on the low notes on the lefthand.
You know lots of tunes, you play nice and steady, you know music and the instrument.
If you were not so ugly I'd advise you to take three advanced classes - but we all have our limits.
Love,
CF

Haha crazy man! But thanks for the heads up, I guess I will do that. By the way I'm 99.99% sure I'll make it again in november, and this time I'll have two bottles of wine

[what's the difference between 'intermediate' and 'advanced']

in ireland there is more of a difference, but in the catskills, the bald fact is, none whatsover. people overrate their abilities in the catskills to such a ridiculous degree, that, if you can learn an assigned tune by ear and can play accurately and rhythmically even if slowly, you are dandy in the advanced class. i have done both levels with gearoid and experienced no difference. he explained the same ornaments in both (though his bent is more tunes than technique, he can and will break down anything you ask about). i choose my class based not on "level" but on what player/teacher i wish to be exposed to for a week. the only difference i saw was that in gearoid's intermediate class, i got to learn more of the clare tunes i will use frequently rather than more rare obscure (though great) tunes, which you end up learning in the advanced class if the teacher does that thing of asking for a show of hands until zero people know the tune. one year we didn't get to learn the junior crehan hornpipe "the hills of coore" because one person out of a class of 25 knew it.

digression: (personally, i ALWAYS fib about this, because when i have spent thousands of dollars to travel to learn concertina from an expert, i would prefer to work on a familiar tune so i can concentrate on technique---ornamentation, phrasing, etc.....i already do more than enough ear earning at home. the box virtuoso colm nea of tipperary told me in ireland that classes where all they do is stuff gobs of tunes by ear-learning into you all week are a complete waste of time, and i agree. he noted that in a week, the brain can assimilate no more than two unfamiliar new tunes by ear, and the rest is a waste. this describes my neurological capabilities to a "t"! after two tunes, i stop bothering to work on ear "homework" during a festival week where there is so much more to do. i'm not cheeky to the teacher about it, but i just go about my business and leave that tape recorder on. i urge the People's Army to FIB, FIB, FIB! it hasn't worked yet, but i'm still FIBBING!!! "THE EWE REEL????? NEVER HEARD OF IT!!!!")

regarding the catskills-phenom-of-self-overrating, this has been discussed here before, and i'm not kidding---it's like the phenom known as "grade inflation" at universities-----there is this thing in ITM learning about adults, particularly americans, i'm afraid, who have done other workshops or the noel hill school. in any class, there are always at least a couple-to-a-few of these who feel they must go into the more advanced classes despite the fact that, regardless of how many classes they have taken their skill set remains such that they cannot learn the tunes or play the tunes. people go into the intermediate group who would be better off in the beginner group. people go into the advanced group who would be better off in the intermediate group or occasionally even the beginner group.

for this reason, you don't need to be a virtuoso in the advanced class (though there are some wonderful players). you just have to be able to play and learn the tune, and you're fine. conversely, for this same reason, the intermediate class is just as useful!

Thanks lady, it makes sens. I hate the fact that people can 'rate' themselves. It's too bad, the more serious or talented players and paying the price for those who don't have a clue. See ya there anyway, and hopefully you'll show me some tricks :-)

I've never been to Catskills or Willy Week and received my training either through private instruction or local workshops, but I hear that at Willy Week they determine your level based on an audition. Is this true? It seems like a good idea to me because the different levels should be designed as such so that players at different levels will receive instruction more efficiently.

Usually at Willie Clancy/ Joe Mooney etc. week, people roughly self sort themselves into beginner, intermediate, advanced by going to different rooms. There could be 60+ in each room along with the various tutors for that level. Everybody plays something - the tutors listen and assign either to a particular person or suggest a move to another room. It can be a bit unsettling for some people and you might only play the first part of a tune etc., so it helps to pick something well within your comfort level. After that, when the classes start proper, the tutor listens again and there's often some switching. People can move from class to class but it's not encouraged as obviously, it messes things up number wise. And anyway, there is often more to be had by sticking with one tutor for the week unless it's obviously too easy or too hard.

Yeah but in practice I noticed that some of the teachers (at Willie Week anyway) dare not tell a student they don't belong in a class. I'd rather have a teacher tell me "You're not advanced enough yet, go to this class" but some people can't handle this sort of heat and would get all upset but by being this way they also sadly screw up other people's experience

pb, i did three years in the advanced box class at clancy week. as we have discussed before, it was even referred to by the instructor as the "master" class. and how they do it is, there was a huge mob of irish kids & teenagers in the common room of a catholic grade school, plus a few adults from the continent & the u.s., all messing around on their boxes in an enormous cacophony of shrieking free reeds, while about seven box wizards who i worshipped as gods gathered in a room with the doors closed. they took six players at a time. you went in there with five other people and sat down facing 7 players whose cds nestled under your pillow at night. so, the first time, if you naven't had any exposure to live irish wizards, it's this huge MOMENT! i was KVELLING! yeah, it's an "audition," but it's extremely friendly and casual and relaxed and they often don't even have you finish the tune. they go, yeah, yeah, you're with so-and-so. but if you place "advanced," and you are a foreign adult, joe burke goes, "you will be in my class," but then they say, if there is anybody in particular you want to go with, you can. i think this is out of consideration for how much dough people are spending to come so far. so the first year i said, josephine. but it turned out that josephine, like the only other female on the staff, ann conroy burke, was teaching tiny children, (an OUTRAGE!) and it wasn't really practicable so i went back to joe burke's class.

then when you go into joe burke's class, he has everybody play a tune AGAIN, for a final re-sorting, and sends any out (nicely, very nicely) who seem shaky. THEN, there is ANOTHER sorting once he starts teaching tunes, (and ALL it is is gobs of ear training, almost nothing else), anybody who proves unable to keep up with that gets sent (nicely, nicely) to an intermediate class that uses sheet music. all you do in joe burke's class is ear training. he showed how to do a roll but responded to questions about technique with, "oh, you'll need to get that from your teachers." and this is the thing. all the irish kiddies have fabulous wizards in their own parishes who have already taught them all this stuff. the first year there were two other adults in the class, a breton & an american. they were transferred because they could not do the ear learning. mind you, by my current standards, i could barely play at that time, particularly compared to the older irish teenagers, some of whom were stone virtuosos. (boys in hip-hop gangsta outfits with gold chains, btw, hilarious.) plus, i disgraced myself by hearing the title of the first tune we learned, "The Bunch of Currants," to be "The Bunch of Curtains." but i could play and i could learn the tunes overnight and deliver the tune satisfactorily the next morning, so i was ok.

in Year Two, it was FAB in the "Sorting Hat" (the "auditions" are JUST LIKE harry potter, complete with wizards) because i had got discernibly better and josephine & conor keane gave me thumbs-up-ish grins and a gangsta kid complimented me while i was practicing in the common room before the Sorting Hat, so how cool was that. the Breton gent also returned and was much better also, which led me to this thought----i loathe group classes. i did it with clenched teeth for the "osmosis and exposure" part of learning that i can't get at home, but i have to say that for "improvers," i think even an ear-learning-only class helps on the osmosis/exposure level. ok, so anyway, i speak french, and gossipping before our turn with the Sorting Hat, it comes out that the Breton was a C#/D guy who worshipped brendan begley but was too intimidated to tell Joe Burke this at the Sorting. And sure enough, we get in there, and when Joe Burke, who is super-kind but if you don't know him can seem lordly, grandly announced, "You shall be in my class," the Breton just goggled at him speechlessly like a deer in the headlights. so i sweetly explained that this gentleman played C#/D, not B/C, so wouldn't it be more helpful for him to be with Brendan, and jb said, oh. and they guy got to go. later, monsieur c#/d fervently thanked me for saving him so he could go play polkas with brendan.

ok, by year three it was dawning on me that i had had enough of the only-ear-learning thing. in both years two and three i stopped after thursday because after two tunes, it was Swiss Cheese Brain, even though I could "learn" the rest, they were gone before i got on the plane at shannon. then, at the end of the week in year three, somebody in the know filled me in that the so-called "intermediate" class, where they use sheet music, where people kept getting sent to if they couldn't keep up with the ear learning in the "advanced" class, turned out to be a total technique class where the dots were used not for dumbbell reasons, but to dispense with time-wasting so you could just concentrate on technique. apparently, the teacher lectured about how to discern where to ornament and what kinds of ornaments you could put in your toolbox to choose from, and had people practice doing this and then you'd come back and compare notes, and taught you how to work basses and all sorts of technique stuff. though i'm not sure i'll be back there any time soon, if i did go back, i would go into the "intermediate" group.

[also by year three i had just started concertina on my own. i went to the concertina school first, since it was directly across the road from where i was staying, but it was too much. there were MOBS and MOBS of Concertina Princesses, and wrought-up Concertina Mommies. i watched the Sorting through the window for a while. Noel was Holding Court. Concertina Mommies were also frantically standing on their tiptoes outside looking through the window to ascertain how their Princesses were doing. they were like those Dance Mommies: Horrifying. I suddenly felt a rush of love for the sullen, too-cool-for-school gangstaz in the box classes. so i left and went to year three of box school. i've since been told that jackie mccarthy does a concertina class for mainly adults and it's mainly talking about the clare music. that might be fun once.]

[anthropological note: there are Fiddle Mommies. and there are Concertina Mommies. and there are Stepdance Mommies,. but in box, it is Box Dads. they are guys from the country who back in the day worshipped joe burke and the Alpha Dogs of Ceili, who are always box players, and they are pushing their sons to live this out. younger boys, not the gangstas. a Box Dad who lurked around the shool all day rather than picking up his son at the end of class actually accosted me a few days into the week during Year Three during a class break and tried to get me to inform on one of my classmates, i.e., his 8-year-old boy, a cheeky freckle-faced imp who in class had glibly told joe burke that, no, he hadn't done that day's tune because, "i'm too busy getting ready for THE FLEADH!!!" so the father, pins me to the wall at class break with, IS HE KEEPING UP ALL RIGHT????? HOW IS HE PROGRESSSING???? i tried to play stupid, and when that didn't work, i told Dad i felt that parents should strive not to cannibalize their children. and that perhaps Dad might want to find some interests of his own. this went over poorly. later, i ended up sitting next to these people at the box recital in the community hall, and while Dad gave me the evil eye, i gave a conspiratorial wink and smirk to my classmate, who was grinning from ear to ear.]

school is infantilizing. and that goes to the tenth power for adults.

so that's a long, windy way of saying, yeah, they audition, but it's loosey-goosey and level labels don't mean much. you have to get the skinny on who uses what approach. but no, somebody who out-and-out couldn't keep up would very nicely be sent to another level.

That's very interesting... thanks cee. I've heard that it's very intimidating to be one of only a few adults among all the kids in those concertina classes. I imagine the same is true for other instruments as well.

I also have done workshops with both. And very much appreciated both their personalities and their classes.
They (as many teachers do) learn you new tunes. But of course the most important thing is not the new tune itself but what they do or can be done playing that tune (ornamentations, variations, etc. etc.). I never did a Noel Hill workshop but certainly can recommend those by Edel and Tim. They are fun and I learned a great deal.
Would love to go myself again, but can not
Hermann
[/quote]


Hi Hermann,

did they accept ECs in their classes? How did they and you manage to do the switches?

Dirk

Ha Cee, your 'dead on' about the Concertina Princesses & Mommies and the Box Dads!! Isn't it curious why there is that bit more gender play in these two related instruments. Mind you, you don't see too many fellow playing the harp or ladies playing the pipes for that matter. Wouldn't necessarily be correct to say that sheet music is supplied in Intermediate classes. I've done same in Flute for couple of years and it was done by ear and my lad has done the box classes with Colm Gannon, same thing (so I'm a Box Dad). The tutors are supposed to give out notes to those that want them at end of week but it's a bit hit & miss. What is essential is a small recording device.
Personally, I've never had any hangups about doing classes with kids as fellow students. They are x years into playing and you are x years likewise - you've just started at different points in your lives.

I meant to add - if you get a chance to do a class with Anne Conroy - take it. I think she only does 'beginners' in Miltown but intermediate at other festivals. I was with her for a few days up in Joe Mooney a few years ago and she is a great teacher with a lovely style of B/C box playing - far more musical in my very humble opinion than her famous husband any day of the week!!

Hee Ceemonster - looks like you learned some music and picked up a huge ''music class trauma'' at the same time?! Classes or workshops with Edel and Tim were fun and not to be compared with what you went through.

Dirk - Yes they have no problem at all with the odd EC in their classes (there was even a duet at Tim's workshop I followed). But beware both do not know how to hold an EC let alone how to play one. So you learn a tune and when techniques are discussed and demonstrated you have to be creative and try to apply what the AC does on the EC. Sometimes it will be impossible or you have to give it your own twist, but a lot of techniques can easily be done on the EC too. They can listen and tell you if it sounds right.
Every workshop I did (In all I did 4 AC workshops and one EC) I learned just a few (one or two only) techniques that I started to apply and gradually improved my playing towards a more diversified and richer Irish like style (I hope).
Hermann

I have experience of someone choosing an advanced class because the intermediate or beginner class clashed with his other instrument.

Last year at ED, this man held up one of the "advanced" box classes. He should really have been in a beginner class, not even intermediate. He drove all the other students nuts and towards the end even the teacher, a very patient and indulgent man, was beginning to show signs of frustration - not just with the student's lack of ability (and the fact that he obviously didn't practise the tunes between one class and the next!) but with his bolshie, whining attitude - he wanted to blame the teacher for his own shortcomings as far as I could see.

One night in the pub he was whinging to me about how the teacher was a bad teacher, and how such and such other teacher with whom he had taken workshops was so much better. When I said perhaps he was in the wrong class he explained, ah but the teacher's intermediate class clashed with the advanced bodhran class he wanted to take, and he "really needed to be in the advanced bodhran class." Thanks, pal!

In the feedback form I wrote a long screed about this problem of people in classes beyond their ability and followed it up with a long email to the organizers, but if they haven't done anything about it by now, I don't think they are likely to do anything in the future.

There's the sense of entitlement some people carry around, the one that says only the best (which in msot cases means the most well known) teacher is good enough for them.

On the other hand there's the organisation that has paying customers to please.

I once taught a week-long workshop, a week before I received a letter from a woman who asked if she could sit in, she never meant to play but she loved to 'experience' different instruments so each year she enrolled for a different instrument at the same course. I told her the Uilleann Pipes (which is what I was teaching) are not the sort of instrument you'd get far on in a week and that I expected she'd be out of place. The organisers though were happy enough to indulge a fee paying hanger-on and told me to teach her. It was a long hard week, I can tell you.

ha, i actually didn't find it traumatic, rather a mix of trying and really vivid. i came away feeling that group classes, particularly those where it's all or almost all ear training, were not for me, but all the anecdotes i told in that long post weren't trauma-centered, they remain colorful and funny memories to me. i have done catskills classes with other teachers and got a lot out of them, but my conviction that group learning and weekling focus on ear-learning over technique isn't the right venue for me, remains unchanged. i still go to classes to get exposure to the players, but the ideal would be, a dozen 2-or-3-hour private lessons a year with a master of the styles i am pursuing, who is also a good "explainer." unfortunately, i can't get that that at present......

hey, did you guys see the ireland story centered largely on clare on the front page of the nytimes travel section a week or two back? i could dig up the link if anyone needs it....

Well, as for myself I'm going to cross my fingers about the fact that that group lessons are good enough to learn a few things. I guess it can't be worse than not taking any classes at all :-)

[I'm going to cross my fingers about the fact that that group lessons are good enough to learn a few things.]

they ARE, and you WILL. the people you named teach technique as well as tunes, and they are also trained in music teaching. also, here is a thought.....you might listen to your prospective teachers' recordings and jot down a question about this or that caper they are doing on this or that tune. a revelation as to one ornament you hear and wonder how they're doing it, might be worth the whole week...my input about "grade inflation" wasn't to say nothing gets done, it was to say, don't worry, you are fine going into an advanced class.....(ha, i just looked for that little Devil emoticon to insert at this point, but this system doesn't offer that one )

tombilly, i too am a big fan of an conroy burke's playing, would love to get a lesson with her sometime. i would love to see a cd by her, maybe with eileen o'brien and deirdre....last name escapes me, (mcsherry?) lovely flute & keyboard player. i have neat shots of those three grrrrls playing outside the pharmacy in miltown during clancy week, i had left my good camera & film in the car and dashed into the store for a disposable......

ceemonster, your earlier post ("pb, i did three years in the advanced box class at clancy week. as we have discussed before, it was even referred to by the instructor as the "master" class. and how they do it is, there was a huge mob of irish kids & teenagers in the common room of a catholic grade school...") was really good. Colorful, well-written, perceptive... and funny. Let me know when next you're over here so you can come over for a cup of tea.

Thanks, that looks promising. I actually don't mind, I'm very excited about the whole idea of taking classes and "getting out there". My problem is that for four years I practiced trying to get a good rhythm and get used to the notes and buttons, play the octave and get used to chords... But I never really practiced or learned proper concertina technique, the whole thing evades me. Claire Keville showed me some "rolls" I'm trying to reproduce on the G and E but it's still pretty cryptic to me.

I've been teaching a quebecois kid concertina for the past few months. I've told them from the beginning that I was not an advanced player and I lacked the true technique, but they insisted. So I got him going, and he's doing pretty well. Gearóid Ó hAllmhuráin is currently in Montreal and I got him to get a lesson with a real expert. So yeah I've been avoiding 'hurting' the kid by teaching him to try to play steady rhythm before trying to do anything else, and for now to get used to one fingering pattern and then 'optimize' his playing with time by discovering new button patterns etc. Anyway the kid is going to go to Catskills and take lessons so I'm very happy about this, he's a bit intimidated because his english is quite limited, but Gearóid speaks french and I told him I'd go in lovely Edel's class with him and be the translator if needs be :-)

OK sorry for my life story, bottom line I'm now serious at actually learning the technique so can't wait for classes!

PS: cocusflute is a great dude and I suggest you visit him if you have a chance, the food is always amazing the only real challenge is to find his house, last time I had to hire a local to find his place :-)

If you are crafty, you can try and play a tune the tutor hasn't heard. No names no packdrill, but the tutor asked me to finish the audition piece because they liked it that much. I got intoe their class as well.

thank you for the kind invite, cf,........regrettably, it is taking me longer to get back over there than i would have thought, but it will happen, i hope sooner rather than later...