There are a number of reasons electronic versions of Concertinas would be nice to have:

Layout experimentations: It's a lot easier to try a layout change (whether it is changing one or two notes, or a complete new design) when it can be tested instantly and with essentially no additional cost. Note I am assuming here that the Anglo versions would allow for SYSEX (SYStem EXclusive messages - instrument specific commands in the MIDI world) control over the key layout.

Private practice: Being able to practice when playing an acoustic instrument would cause a problem (travelling, night hours in an apartment complex with thin walls, or because family would wake) is a definite plus.

Recording: The ability to record the notes precisely as played (with timing information) might make teaching easier, especially for instruments, like Concertinas, which are uncommon. If a teacher played a piece on a MIDI instrument, the MIDI version (along with audio versions played on a traditional Concertina, since no MIDI concertina is going to sound right[*]) could be put on a CD or a web site to help see exactly what is being played and when.

Recording Redux: People who play only concertinas would be able to multitrack themselves if they wanted to record their own backing playing a different instrument. Play the piece once as a flute, and then play back along with yourself with your normal Concertina.

--Dave

(*) It would theoretically be possible to come close, with a lot of sampling and a very skilled patch builder. It is unlikely to be worth the effort.

Well I suppose for a designer it would be nice to have something that one can experiment on... but I doubt many people would get one just to experiment with keyboard layout layouts, and for most players too much experimentation with keyboard layouts might be a bad thing. Lets suppose one comes up with the perfect layout for ones concertina and you have a custom maker make it and you become a master of it.... if the layout is too odd you won't really be able to play someone else's concertina.

Private practice: Well I suppose it could be useful for learning new tunes and stuff, but I would imagine that the best practice would occur by playing ones regular instrument, afterall you have to learn the master the individual quirks of ones instrument; quirks that almost by definition won't be present in an electronic instrument. As for the concertina disturbing others.. well I agree you probably are not going to be able to play a real one on a bus or the subway, but most private rooms, even with relatively thin walls, should mute the sound enough that if you play quietly it should not disturb other people or wake them up. Certainly that has been my experience with my 4 voice accordion and I suspect most concertinas can be played even more quietly than my box.

Recording... I suppose for teaching it might have some utility, but really, the same could be served by providing the actual sheet music and maybe providing fingering suggestions. For other recording options.. even if you can make a midi concertina sound like a flute, that does not make it a good idea... Each instrument has its strengths and weaknesses... an ornament that might be easy on a flute will be difficult on a concertina and the reverse would also be true... so while the casual listener might hear a flute, someone a bit more up on flute playing is going to be driven crazy by the odd style of play.

I guess its just to me but midi instruments just are not the same as playing the real thing and I suppose I am also scared that people are going to start showing up at the local sessions with midi versions of the real instruments.

--
Bill

Dave W. said "Layout experimentations", but I would replace that with "Layout variation" for a different perspective. Say I'm used to a Jeffries layout, but somebody who's used to a Wheatstone arrives at the session without his box. I'd be happy to loan him mine, but he'll find himself playing some really wrong notes. But if all I have to do is flip a switch on my MIDI anglo... hey, he's in business. And of course, I could have a custom layout for myself and still have settings for both standard layouts to accomodate others.

Or what if the fiddlers want the "brighter" sound of tuning half a step higher than standard? No problem, since I can do the same with my MIDI box. (A friend of mine used to deliberately learn tunes in Ab and Eb, so that he could play with fiddlers who did just that and refused to be considerate of others' needs/reeds.)

Instead of owning three (or more) separate instruments -- a C/G, a G/D, and a baritone C/G -- using a MIDI instrument as a 3-in-1 wouldn't require the income of a Bill Gates.

But one could also approach playing in different keys from a completely different perspective. Instead of getting an anglo with 24, 30, or 40 buttons and learning a completely different sequence of buttons for each key, a single 20-button (or even 10-button?) instrument could suffice for all keys. You could even have settings where the standard major-key fingerings would give you minor scales or other modes, like some special hamonicas I've seen. Oh, you might want to use that technique but still increase to a 24-button layout to handle those tunes that have a few special accidentals... or you might have a design that allowed dynamic switch-operated changes to the layout while playing, like the pedals on a concert harp or the "flags" on a traditional harp.

Sure, it wouldn't be quite the same as the way anglos have been played traditionally, but I suppose similar arguments were used against the various duet systems when they were introduced.

Well, for some folks the MIDI would be their "regular instrument". But the other side of the coin is that some of us already have more than one instrument, and practicing on one does help our playing on the others. In fact, I find that practicing any concertina -- English, Crane, 30-button C/G Ceili, 38-button G/D Jeffries, etc. -- improves my playing of the others. Switching among different anglos with the same key layout is more like swtiching between different makes of guitar. I hope you don't believe that practicing on a Harmony makes it difficult to play a Martin. And I know from listening experience that Stanley Jordan's use of a MIDI guitar doesn't impede his playing on an acoustic. (That's a tale for another day.)

But one can certainly learn the quirks of more than one instrument, and compensate for them as minor variations. I do touch typing on American, British, and Danish keyboards and three other keyboards that aren't even for human languages, and I can do it without thinking on machines ranging from manual and electric typewriters to various sizes of computer keyboards. Most "individual quirks" are no more limiting than the color of the keys.

In my old apartment I could play full volume at 3 am and no one complained (OK, the one neighbor did complain she couldn't hear me well enough); here I can't play after 10 pm, and I have to be careful of volume at other times. Different building construction, and different neighbors.

Great! Let's do it!

I hope they do, and that you find yourself enjoying their playing before you discover it's MIDI. I wonder how much experience you have with MIDI. The insipid crap that comes out of simple computer programs is certainly not indicative of what MIDI can accomplish. As with many other technologies, there's a wide range of quality and capability. I have a friend who would never play any piano but a concert grand... until I got her to try my Yamaha keyboard -- weighted, with velocity, a good sythesizer. She loved it and claimed it both felt and sounded like a real concert grand.

Of course, it remains to be seen what the upcoming MIDI concertinas will be like and how they will develop over time.

I'm definitely going to want both English and anglo MIDI concertinas (and duets, if anybody makes them). But don't waste your time queing up for the Jeffries, Jones, Wheatstones, Lachenals, etc. I'm not letting them go.

I'm really looking forward to being able to make my instrument sound like something else - but then maybe I'm the ony one here who tries to play Led Zep and Dire Straits on the English (as well as the more traditional stuff!

Denis

I'd sort of like to make my instrument sound like somebody else.

I'm with Jim, well said.

Personally, I started thinking how much I'd like one immediately, and was then disappointed to realise it said "English". Still, an Anglo will surely follow..?

Chris

If you can't wait, get the English version and modify it as follows:
... 1) Remove the finger plates and in their place put hand rails with straps. (Obviously, longer than the finger plates, but long in the same direction. Make sure that the rails are secured by screws extending into the board with the pad-covered holes, or you risk pulling the end apart.)
... 2) Reprogram the midi to put the notes where you want them, with different notes on push and pull. (I hope that last will be possible. There will have to be some way of detecting bellows pressure, and it will have to be different for the two directions of bellows motion, so the software should be able to distinguish which direction and treat each combination of bellows direction and button separately.)
... 3) Voila! The rows are straight, rather than curved, nor is the "diagonal" offset between rows quite right, but you have an "anglo" with 4 rows of 6 buttons in the left hand and rows of 6, 7, 6, and 5 in the right. Admittedly not quite the same as a midi copy of a 40-button Linota layout, but as I said, "If you can't wait...."

.........

A midi version of the concertina is long overdue. What was the original if not an attempt to bring all fo the then modern techniques together to build the best and best mechanical arts to bear the making of a thoroughly modern, portable and versatile musical instrument? I can't wait.

Well it seems obvious that some of you are hopeless in your love of electronic fru-fru Granted everyone has a right to their opinions even if theya re wrong . Just some final thoughts from this luddite .

Jim, you mention the idea of me playing with a Midi concertina and enjoying it before I realize that it is a Midi... and such instruments would not be a problem per say.. but if one wants an instrument that sounds like a concertina, just get a concertina; unlike a keyboard, their is no serious impediment to bringing a real concertina to the local session. The people I am worried about are the ones who bring the midi monstrosity (notice the alliteration ) to the session and then decide to make it sound like a flute or some other instrument or something unique all together (like you sometimes see with electronic keyboard players). I am sure it has its place, but not in Irish Trad Sessions.

The other thought is that the further one moves from the standard layouts in designing ones instrument, the less like an anglo or an english concertina you are playing... your style is going to start sounding very different from what the standard instruments sound. For some music that might be ok, but for others its going to make you rather unpopular with some people playing in sessions. To put it in simple terms, if you are playing in an Irish Music Session, the other players have every right to assume that your playing style will be appropriate for irish music.

--
Bill

Some people love em, some people hate em. I'm just glad that there are people are out in this wonderful wide world of us who are passionate about music, no matter what form it may take.

I wish you all much music and joy

Morgana

I think it's a great idea - particularly for concertina-players who don't play keyboards but who fancy having a go at computer-assisted sequencing/arranging.

Personally, though, I have a real love-hate relationship with electronic instruments - particularly keyboards. In the main, I hate playing them, and have always said I'd rather have a cheap wreck of an acoustic piano over a pristine electronic one. Even playing the recent top-of-the-range Yamaha ones with the new weighted wooden actions hasn't changed my mind on this (sorry Jim!) - there's simply something missing, and it's probably that wonderful organic relationship between construction materials and sound. In the same way a digital piano isn't an acoustic piano, a MIDI concertina isn't going to be an acoustic concertina. They're two different things.

And don't start me off on MIDI guitars.

But then electronics are great for some things. I have a Roland keyboard that I can get some really foul bass sounds out of

I once thought that electronic instruments would never replace the "real" things. Now I'm not so sure; it may not necessarily be a bad thing, but I am increasingly convinced that that approach isn't for me. Incidentally, I'm not much fond of digital recording either - 8-track tape for me please

Stuart

(edited for bad grammar)

No need to apologize to me. I don't play piano; I have it so my friends don't have to bring their own when they come over to play.

Dunno about you, but I think they'd be a great way to start kids off on guitar... and with earphones!

Is that how it got in there?

Indeed you do.

Bill, you keep calling yourself a Luddite. But Luddites are people who go around smashing machinery. And a concertina is machinery of the highest order. Please tell me you're not a Luddite!

There could be one... cost. (Currently it's uncertain whether midis will be cheaper. Presumably, time will tell.) But I also noted that a single MIDI concertina might do the job of several standard concertinas, e.g., a C/G, a G/D, a baritone C/G, a Bb/F, and now I'm into to the realm of too many to carry.

Heaven forbid someone should have an instrument that sounds like a flute (is that wooden, or "silver"), instead of raucous reeds! (Did somebody say something about alliteration?)

You mean unique like the concertina was when it first appeared on the music scene?

I was about to say, "Who are you to make such a declaration?" But maybe that's unfair. I've been playing Irish music for more than 30 years now (on an English concertina, by the way), but I have to admit that I'm not really sure what Irish "Trad" is, or who invented it, or when.

Well, you seem to be protesting the potential intrusion of newfangled technology or maybe just something different, and it's an age-old protest. I remember an uilleann piper who would complain about the intrusion into Irish music of that newfangled, "foreign" instrument... the fiddle! (He didn't seem to mind the concertina, but in those days there seemed no danger of it becoming a threat to the pipes' dominance.)

Well, I could get into a long debate about the definitions of such things as "Irish style", "Irish session", "traditional", etc., including who has the authority to define them, but I've decided not to... at least not here.

It seems to me, Bill, that you have settled into a comfortable musical microecology, but you fear that it might be disturbed. In particular, you've attached your fears to the concept of a midi concertina. Quite apart from my own desire to experiment with something new, I'm trying to suggest that your worry is futile, or at least premature. First, even the English midi concertina is yet to come on the market. If (though more likely when) such an instrument becomes commercially available, you personally are unlikely to have any influence on its production, distribution, or popularity, no matter what you say. If someone eventually brings one to one of the sessions you attend, the powers in control (I'm guessing that's not you) will either accept it or reject it. Surely such controlling powers exist and have some means of enforcing rejection, if that's their judgement. But whatever happens in such a session, it will probably have little effect on other sessions, much less in other musical genres... and it shouldn't.

But what would it take for a midi concertina to show up at your session? Either some stranger who alrady plays one would drop by or one of your local concertina players (you? oh, no! ) would have to start playing one. Realistically, what do you think are the chances of either? Now the drop-by scenario could also happen with a saxophone or an electric bass, or even a midi flute. Has that happened at your local session? What was the response? By the way, there's a fellow at some of my local sessions who does sometimes play reels and such on the soprano sax. Not all the time -- in sessions he mainly plays flute and whistle, -- but he's good, and when he does, everyone loves it! The electric bass brings a different problem... the amplifier and speaker. Electric guitar would be the same. Do those show up at your local session? What happens if they do?

Back to the midi concertina: Unless it has the synthesizer, amp, and speaker built in, it will present the same problem as electric strings (or worse). Wim Wakker mentioned a "wireless" connection, which suggests to me that external electronics will be needed. Maybe this is why midi flutes haven't displaced the blackwood beasts?

In other words, I think you have nothing to worry about for a long time and so should let those of us who like experimentation, variation, and versatility do our thing without disturbing our neighbors... or even you, if you're in the next hotel room. I think you can safely save your complaining for 40 years from now, when you can tell children tales of "the good old days", when concertinas had reeds and even the smallest personal computers wouldn't fit in your pocket.

I'm sure the technology has improved, but the last one I played introduced a really noticeable time delay between pickup, MIDI-signal-converter-thingy and synthesizer. I'd liken it to playing a church organ in which the console is in a different part of the building from the pipes... something of a challenge if you're trying to use it to play rhythm guitar for ensemble playing!

I'd much rather give a kid a cheap electric guitar, one of those mini Marshall or Danelectro battery amps and a pair of headphones

Jim, I am not calling myself a luddite because I am advocating destroying machines... rather using in the term of the broader sense of being suspicious about technological innovation, particularly for its own sake. Granted the concertina and the instrument I am somewhat more proficient at, the button accordion, are machines and products of the industrial revolution, but they have seeped into Irish Traditional music over the course of the last century to such an extent that Clare music (concertina) and Kerry and East Galway music (Accordion) would be very weird without those instruments.

Regarding my objection to the concertina sounding like a flute; its not that I have a problem with a flute, indeed I love the flute, but regardless of how exact you can reproduce the sound on a midi concertina, you can't play the concertina like a flute anymore than you can play a flute like a concertina. As far as I can tell, most musical styles evolve in part as a response to the limitations of the instruments used and people who play different instruments in the tradition are going to come up with their own solutions to their limitations that work with the other instruments in the tradition. That being said, a roll or a cran on a button box is going to be different than one played on a flute or the pipes and the same is true on the concertina or fiddle or whatever. On a B/C accordion you pretty much can't do a proper roll on an F# (and it just isn't a question of my limited playing ability, I was told so by Billy McComiskey) where rolling on an F# would be pretty simple on the flute or the whistle. So introducing instruments that can imitate other instruments with out actually having the same strengths and limitations is going to start altering the character of the music.

Now granted I am sure that there are areas of music where such problems would not be problems per say; after all new musical genres are developing all the time and I imagine it also would not be as much of an issue for musical styles that are less ornamented than Irish Trad Music.

Ok, ultimately neither I nor anyone else has the authority to say what is and isn't Irish Music but I think ultimately those who love it know what it is and isn't. To me at least the idea of too much electronic music, particularly when people are using instruments to sound significantly different from what they are... if that makes any sense at all with electronic instruments.

--
Bill

I know. I was pulling your leg. At least, I hoped I was!

Again, I suspected as much.

Exactly the sort of argument some folks have used in the past to claim you can't play Irish music on an English concertina, or on concert ("silver") flute. First you set up the artificial condition that to sound Irish the one instrument must sound identical to the other in all respects if it sounds the same in any respect; then you say that it doesn't meet that condition; and so you say it's wrong for Irish music. Well, I say that the first assumption is false, and that renders the entire argument null and void. And I can provide examples where the finest Irish musicians agree with me, at least where it comes to English concertina and concert flute.

Now it's very possible that if/when you hear a midi concertina you won't like it. That may depend on who is playing it, and also on whether they've set it to sound like a "flute" or "violin" rather than a "concertina". (There's no guarantee they will. My piano-playing friend who liked my Yamaha keyboard enjoyed experimenting with the non-piano settngs, from classical guitar and jazz trumpet to "Balinese bath house", but she never even tried to use those for Bach or Chopin piano pieces.) I'm just asking that you listen to something before you judge.

And you're claiming this is bad, or even wrong? Where would Irish music be today if that argument had been used successfully against the introduction of the B/C box? At first it appears to be just like the older traditional G/D box, except that the ornaments and push-pull changes just aren't the same. But then the G/D box is itself "an abominable corruption" of the single-row button accordion.

Once again, you seem to be assuming that what you have personally experienced is somehow both all-there-is and sacrosanct. Some years ago a friend of my was taking lessons from Paddy Reynolds, a fiddler from Galway. One day he asked Paddy to teach him rolls on the fiddle, to which he said Paddy replied, "No! That's piping shit! If you want to learn to play the fiddle, you come to me. But if you want to learn that shit, go find yourself a piper." Paddy, by the way, was perfectly capable of playing "that shit", and he often did so when playing in concert with others. But they weren't part of the fiddle tradition he grew up with, and they're not required for music to be Irish. In my experience, the "Irish" feel is something much deeper, and the ornaments are just what we call them: "ornaments".

And they will disagree until the sun comes up over whether a particular bit they've heard is or isn't. If you haven't experienced that, then I fear your experience is rather limited.

And there you have it. It's not the music that's bothering you, it's the "idea". Your concerns are based on preconception and prejudice. You have made assumptions regarding some things that some people might do with a midi concertina, and are using that to argue against the whole concept.

Well, if you can do that, then I can argue against your argument... and I have.

A thought occurred to me: I know that midi piano accordions have been around for some time, and there are several makers. I thought the same should be true of the "diatonic" kind, and that there might even be some prominent Irish b-boxers playing them. So I did some brief searching on Google.

The results were not as promising (or dismaying, depending on your point of view) as I had hoped. I did find one maker's web page(http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/alba/midibutt.htm), but it was last updated in 1996, so I don't know if he's still in the business. It does mention an external midi controller and a mains cable, so I suspect it would be awkward in a session.

I know I've seen John Whelan use a wireless box, but that might have been only for connecting to the mixing board, not necessarily midi. I didn't get any hints from his web site.

I'd be surprised if there aren't some midi-B/C boxes out there. On the other hand, I'd expect that if there were, they would be more discussed. So I'm wondering if anybody else here knows more.

In any event, my idea of judging the potential impact of midi concertinas from the real impact of midi button boxes has turned out to be fantasy.

Well regarding Midi button accordions used in Irish music? I know of no player who uses them. Billy McComiskey plays old grey Paolo Sopranis or Saltarelles; Patty Furlong plays Saltarelle Irish Boebes (she usually has two with her, 1 tuned in B/C and 1 in C#/D; Paddy O'Brien plays a Paolo as does John Nolan; John Whelan now I think plays pretty much just Cairdin Boxes (though he might have wireless pickups in them); Sharon Shannon plays Castagnaris... I could go on. Ultimately I think Box players want their boxes to sound like boxes.

Button accordion players are I think not like Piano accordion players in general. Button Boxes tend to be tied more closely to tradtional music genres (be it Irish, Cajun, Tex-Mex, what have you). Piano Accordions are used in a wider selection of music, everything from traditional music to rock (Yeah I know its weird, but I have seen a few bands, maybe more pop than rock use them) and jazz. That being the case, I can see why a Piano Accordion player might want an instrument that has a broader range of sound choices. Of course it might have to do with the continuing efforts of button box players to distance themselves from the piano accordion players .

Personally at least for traditional music I think the lack of Midi button boxes bode well for the future of concertinas.. why play an instrument that doesn't sound like itself .

Oh one last thought... Jim, I know you were talking about the silver flute and the english concertina in Irish music and the early resistence to half step tuned boxes... well I tend to agree with you.. but I also think that in a way it is good that their is resistence to inovation in traditional music forms. Something innovative should have to earn its place in the music. Further the English Concertina, the Silver Flute and the B/C accordions are instruments in their own right, not instruments trying to be something else. That is my biggest fear with Midi instruments in general in the context of traditional music; that one will end up walking into a session and never know what to expect... if everyone brings in instruments with custom layouts and tunings and various sound effects of various sorts... with concertinas sounding like flutes, flutes sounding like fiddles and bodhrans sounding like uillean pipes how much tradition will be left in traditional music...

--
Bill

For efforts to "escape" that, see the "Inappropriate" Songs... Topic in the Tunes/Songs subForum.

Ah, but how can it not sound like itself? On the other hand, if it sneaks in looking like something else and bides its time until one day suddenly showing its true face/voice... that sounds like a "sleeper" spy or terrorist. No wonder you're worried!

Some resist. Some innovate. Some do neither, but just play... or listen.

But I thought you were arguing that a midi concertina shouldn't be allowed a chance to earn a place, and it's really that attitude that I'm against.

But to me that's what makes a great session... a new song, a new tune, and yes, a new instrument. I remember the first time somebody showed up with a B/C box at our local session. We rarely had accordions, and I didn't realize that this was different from the 2-row G/Ds that occasionally showed up, but the guy was spectacular, and that was all that mattered. I was less surprised by the first bouzouki, because I had a friend who used one for Greek music. (There were those who later resisted applying the name "bouzouki" to an instrument that looked more like a flat-back "mandolin" with a growth disorder than like the Greek original.)

If it comes to that in one session, then it will be something different... just like jazz and rock&roll each grew out of an earlier music. But it won't happen that way everywhere, maybe even nowhere. Do you really think that the crowd at your local session would embrace that sort of thing?

A second -- and perhaps less tolerant -- answer is about as little as there is now! When I started playing with Irish musicians in New York there was considerable resistance to the use of guitars for backup, which many musicians felt was "not traditional". Surprisingly, there was less resistance when guitarists graduated beyond simple I-IV-V chording. The first time I saw a low D whistle was about 10 years later, when Joe McKenna played one that he had made himself. They weren't exactly a significant part of the tradition, though today they're practically inescapable. Some of the top Irish groups today use synthesizer keyboards, and some play tunes with Balkan-style rhythms. The general style of the music also seems to have changed considerably over the past 35 years. Much of today's "traditional" Irish music -- at least the recorded stuff -- would be unrecognizable to musicians in the 1950s, even unimaginable to some. It makes me think of that scene from the movie Back to the Future.

Tradition, especially in Irish music, is a living and growing thing, not a fear of innovation or change. Ultimately, some innovations will be rejected and others incorporated, and we may even see the birth of new "regional" styles. Will any of them be based on midi flutes and midi concertinas pretending to be each other? I doubt it. I think you're worrying about a scenario that just isn't going to happen, even without your resistance.

I don't understand. Does the computina have a bellows? If so, what is it for? I assume the tones are generated electronically. Is there some air pressure device controlling the volume, allowing the manipulating of air to give a pulse to the music? Maybe pressure on the button itself could accomplish that. The anglo needs a directional switch in the bellows.
Inventing musical instruments is all well and good but the picture I'm getting is something more akin to a laptop than a concertina.
I'm not worried about such a thing changing my world. We've had electric guitars for some time and I don't see them used much in traditional Irish music. It's great that there are people with the time and inclination to use for innovation and invention. I'd love to try the thing but when it comes down to it I'm happy with the musical instruments that existed a hundred years ago. I'll keep my computer, minidisc recorder and mp3 player though.
I see great potential for a wide range of those novelty sound effects!

EM

I believe that's the general idea. It's how midi wind instruments work.

It could, but as far as I know, that's not what current designers are aiming for. They want the control to feel as much like a traditional concertina as possible, even when the sound is different.

Well, it needs to be able to tell whether the bellows is being compressed or expanded (and how stongly), so it needs either two switches, or one pressure sensor with software that distinguishes between pressures below ambient (expansion) or above ambient (compression). (And a barometer to tell it what ambient is on that day. ) But you need the same for an English. Pushing and pulling don't give the same results; something special has to be done to treat them as equal.

I think the idea is more like a computer not on your lap, with a wireless connection to a concertina-shaped keyboard, which is on your lap, leg, or wherever.

True, but I think in any tradition, there's an "intelligence" that's been built up over decades (and possibly centuries), which is where the wealth of the musical form lies. Part of the worth of any traditional music form to me is the organic nature of it, being played on true acoustic instruments. One could intellectualize many reasons for this appeal -- the sound coming directly from the instrument, not some amp to the side, the physical control over volume and sound instead of turning knobs to "arbitrarily" change them, or the complex, individual, and often "unpolished" sound of acoustic instruments. But in any case, I think the intelligence or "common sense" built into traditional music is justifiably wary of MIDI instruments. I see how they're used in other musical situations, and for the most part, that's what I look at traditional music forms to get away from. I'm willing to hear an exception, as I'm sure there will be. But for the most part, I'm not interested. A "living tradition" is not the same as no tradition at all.

And I think
... 1) That such "wariness" cannot possibly be justified if it's not based on experience.
... 2) Experience with existing midi instruments -- which by now have been around for quite a long time -- indicates that the projected end-of-tradition scenarios are as unreal as imaginary monsters under the bed.
...3) That the "intelligence" you suggest exists in traditional music (among traditional musicians?) is far from universal or unanimous about many aspects of tradition, including xenophobia directed at midi instruments.


You think I couldn't make a midi concertina sound "unpolished"? I'll take that as a challenge!

Lousy piece of equipment is my guess. My first experience with what I know was a midi guitar was in 1992, and there was certainly no noticeable time delay with Stanley's setup.

And "cheap" shouldn't have anything to do with it. Today's cheap equipment is far advanced beyond the best money could buy only a few years ago.
Bad design and bad programming can still make it perform poorly, though.

I'm not saying it'll be the "end of the tradition" or anything like that. I'm saying a healthy skepticism is natural and good for ANY tradition, otherwise there wouldn't BE any tradition. Skepticism is not the same as dismissing something out of hand -- I agree with you that one should keep an open mind, which I think is your main point. There's certainly a place for MIDI instruments in any genre, if one wants to explore that. But it's extremely valuable for me, and many others, to have a place free from amplification and computer-generated sounds. Can you agree with that point?

I like "free from amplification". I wish I could start with all the pubs, stores, and even the place where I sit after midnight -- sometimes alone -- waiting for the ferry, subjected to music I can't turn off or even down, put there by somebody who may never be in a position to hear it.

But all too often a session needs amplification, because of crowd noise. Wish I could turn down the volume on the "audience".

"Free from computer-generated sounds"? What if you/I can't tell from listening that they're computer-generated? What if it's a sound not produced by any known acoustic instrument, but it's still a good sound? (What if everything that's needed to produce it fits invisibly inside a concertina?) I'm all for getting rid of computer-generated "music" that sounds bad, but sounds that "sound like computers" these days are merely imitations of what used to be the limitations of electronic sound generation, or even deliberately made to sound artificial.

I'm personally much more concerned about sessions where the guitars outnumber the melody instruments and yet they all try to play all the time. With a clearly audible melody I can often play along with an unfamiliar tune, but when the melody is drowned in a morass of chords, I can't even tell whether it's one I know or not.

I've worked for years simulating things on computers. I've programmed digital audio quite extensively. I have a pretty good idea of the limitations and strengths of it. My interest in acoustic instruments stems from the interaction between a musician and an instrument that vibrates air directly...the complex physical and acoustical interactions that take place are FAR too complex to be modeled perfectly, they're not even understood. I don't think the strength of electronic instruments is in trying to replace this interaction. Of course, this is even more true for an instrument like a violin, or even a whistle, than for a concertina.

I'm still not sure I've made myself clear. I'm not opposed to how MIDI instruments "sound." I'm interested in the process of creating sounds from finely crafted instruments, feeling the vibrations, turbulence, and the direct physical connection with the sounds being made. I'm interested in what this brings out in people. An acoustic instrument has no choice but to obey the laws of physics -- your subtle inflections aren't there because someone tried to figure out how to make them happen, but because that's the way the world works. I'm sure others are just as interested in exploring what computers are capable of. But with MIDI instruments, it's very easy to get "disconnected" from vibrations and acoustics. And no matter what you do, there will always be an electronic "disconnect" as things go through an electronic circuit and a speaker, instead of wood and metal vibrating the air directly. I'm in no way implying that this dooms them to uselessness -- just that there's a fundamental difference that shouldn't be ignored.

I don't mind if others want to integrate artificial instruments with acoustic ones. I very well might want to listen to the result. But I hope they don't mind if I seek out pure acoustic situations to play in for myself, and they at least try to understand where I'm coming from.

Well, we've had a few different viewpoints here. Mine has not been that I want to replace my acoustic instruments with midi ones (except maybe for being able to practice without being bothered by my neighbors), or that I think midi is better, or even that I would like the sound or feel of a midi concertina... whether it was trying to sound like a concertina or not. My view is that I want to be able to try it and see.

I've done that with many an acoustic instrument and been dissatisfied. I've done it with others and kept them. (I've done it with a few and regretted not having enough money.) Maybe I'll reject several midi concertinas but some day encounter one I like. Maybe not. Maybe I'll find an electronic concertina I like, but it won't be midi. (I'm told by a friend who knows much more than I do that midi is old, "primitive" technology, but it's entrenched.)

I'll just wait and see. But I do look foward to trying them when they arrive on the market.

Yeah, MIDI is actually just a computer serial port protocol and a set of codes for note on/off, volume, etc., and it came out in about 1980. I just used MIDI as a shorthand for electronic (computer generated) instruments.

I never thought you were arguing that acoustic instruments could or should be replaced, just as I've not been arguing that electronic instruments should be banned. It's just that I got a feeling that you were saying there was absolutely no reason anyone should be skeptical of MIDI instruments. But I think there are good reasons to be skeptical, based on the history of acoustic instruments in traditional music, how MIDI instruments have been used in the past, and the real differences between acoustic and electronic instruments. One can be skeptical and open-minded at the same time. But different people should be allowed to explore the path they want to explore, without someone telling them they're unreasonable for excluding what they're not interested in.

Anyone who wants to exclude something from their own exploration should be free to do so, but not to exclude it from others'.

I think a lot of folks have developed the habit of getting up in arms about things that _are not_ what's being proposed here. Nobody said, I repeat, nobody said that anyone was planning to invent midi concertinas and use them to invade traditional acoustic sessions. Many sessions today have already been burned by someone showing up with an inappropriate electric instrument; they just proceeded to label the session "acoustic" and put a stop to the problem. I would like a midi concertina, not to use in a normally acoustic environment, but to use in an _electric_ environment, like a reggae jam or a blues jam. It would be fun to use a concertina to "play bass." There are a million things one could do with a midi concertina that would have nothing to do with spoiling anyone's acoustic party. It would have to feel at least as good as a Stagi, though....

-Eric Root

Well, the discussion did branch off of some people saying they'd be dubious about the appropriateness of a MIDI concertina at their "local session." And others posted that it might not be so bad, and implied that one would be closed-minded for wanting to exclude one. I don't think that's necessarily the case, and wanted to make that clear.

Have we been "up in arms" here? Seems like a healthy discussion to me, I've found this thread pretty civil and may have even learned a thing or two. And I agree with Jim's last post completely, so I think we're OK here. People will play with the people they want to play with, and won't play with those they don't want to play with, so it's pretty self-policing anyway...which is exactly how music "evolves" in a grass-roots tradition.