Reading the fascinating Tedrow logs (sounds like a Robert Ludlum thriller), I was struck once again by the reality that accordion reeds don't sound like concertina reeds.

I hear this very clearly in the difference between my Herrington and my Dipper/Groff-modified Lachenal. I love them both, but only one sounds like a "real" concertina to my ears.

I'm wondering what factors make it so hard to modify accordion reeds, or to jigger with other variables in the concertina, to more closely approximate the genuine concertina sound. Has there been a lot of experimentation aimed at this? What kinds of results have people seen? Have the newer accordion reeded instruments moved closer to the real thing, sound wise?

To start with, accordion and concertina reeds are very different, as are harmonium (reed organ) and harmonica reeds. These all share the same basic design of a reed tongue affixed at one end in a frame, but that's about it.

To stick to just accordion and concertina reeds, they evolved (quite early on) into quite different animals from their more common original design into "high pressure" (accordion) and "low pressure" (concertina) reeds. They are designed to operate optimally under different basic pressure parameters. That is one reason why accordion reeds have such a different tonal color, typically take more pressure to start speaking, are inherently louder and have less dynamic range than concertina reeds.

The entire reed assembly's design is toward those propensities, including the reed tongue's mass distribution, stiffness, profile, hardness, set, clearances, etc. and its reedplate thickness, vent size/shape/taper, etc.

There is very little one can do with an existing reed assembly to change its qualities, with probably the easiest (relatively!) thing being to machine a taper into the vent walls of an accordion reedplate. Several of us "hybrid" makers have experimented with this, and I think Wim Wakker may be the most knowledgeable and inclusive of this modification to his instruments.

Still, this doesn't make it a concertina reed, but only enables it to sound a bit more like one. There really is no practical way alter the parameters of the reed tongue itself. It would be far easier to make a concertina reed tongue from scratch. But then you'd have to make the plates from scratch too.... All this is pretty limiting.

But beyond the reed, there are many things that can be adjusted to make the reed's sound more concertina-ish than accordion-ish, but here we're talking about "coloring" the sound, mainly by frequency absorption - or enhancement, mainly by mounting techniques.

All the "hybrid" makers have designed their boxes to effect a more concertina sound from accordion reeds. Some with more success than others (though success depends on the goal of the makers which may be different from what many concertina players/buyers want). Stagi (and ilk) do not get much into concertina design/construction and that is why their instruments sound and respond more like accordions.

Results of concertinafication? On a scale of 1-10 with accordions at 1 and concertinas at 10, I (me, personally - I'd be interested to hear what other people's "score" on this would be) would consider a Stagi to range from 1 to 2 and the hybrids to be from 3 to 6 (and I feel that I may be being generous here). Keep in mind that I'm considering response as well as sound. Raters need to be on the knowledgeable player end too.

>results of concertinafication? On a scale of 1-10 with accordions
> at 1 and concertinas at 10, I (me, personally - I'd be interested
> to hear what other people's "score" on this would be) would

Thanks for a very thorough reply, rich
.
So with your instruments, have you been making changes that add to the concertina-like tonal qualities? I've played 2 of yours, and one sounded much more traditional (it was a newer one) than the other, and than my early Herrington. What changes have you made?

Given the fundamental differences in the reeds, it's amazing how well the Morse and Herrington (and I'd assume the Tedrow and the Edgley) feel like traditional concertinas when played. The more traditional-sounding Morse I played was a 6 or 7 on your scale; I'd give my Herrington a 4 or 5, same as the first Morse I played (serial number in the 30s, I think so very early)

Is achieving a more traditional sound an ongoing goal of hybrid makers, or is this regarded as a hopeless quest?

Why not both?

"One reed to rule them all...."

Rich,

What would a huffy-chuffy slow speaking bonebutton metal end Lachenal place on that scale?

A 10, even though it compares poorly to a snappy little edeophone?


Bob

I'd consider that Lachenal to be a 10. I seem to visualize the accordion/concertina comparison to be a 3D thing with 1-10 of the X axis being accordion-concertina sound, the Y axis being response, and Z axis being construction quality. The 2D version would look something like this:
I'd have to draw out the 3D version, but verbally, the Z axis would put the Stagi = 2, Morse = 5, that Lachenal =4 and the Edeophone = 10.

Actually, I haven't given this charting/concept much thought. This is just the way I've been visualizing this comparison. There are a lot of other parameters which I can't express here though I "see" in my mind, like:

Each name on the chart could also represent individual boxes (in addition to the general make of box) which would have their "name" in color represent condition with red being basket-case boxes to orange (marginally playable) to amber (average condition) to celery (good shape (could use some fine tuning, etc.) to green (as mint and tweeked). Brand new boxes would have their name colors shine.

Availability could be expressed in how large a font the box's names were, such as Stagi, Lachenal, or Jeffries.

Names of boxes which are of particularly good value would shake/move slightly, or pulse lightly (buy me, buy me, I'm undervalued!). Those that are overrated would appear in boated text that's a bit more pastel (washed out) in color.

I find this interesting - my trying to descibe a concept that I've never delineated before.... Insights into a visual person.... Who knows, maybe someone can expand upon this idea to make it useful?

So, by default, any tradreed gets assigned a 10, regardless of tone?

Hey guys.....just a bit of day dreaming here.
If you can put accordion reeds in a concertina, could you put concertina reeds in a melodeon(diatonic accordion)
Did any of the major concertina producers ever experiment with this
Robin

Robin,

The answer to your question is yes, but nothing came of it.

Lachenal & Co. experimented with this idea, maybe around 1930, as a 2-row chromatic (probably C/C#) melodeon has survived. It was numbered C1223 in the former Concertina Museum Collection, and is presumably now at the Horniman Museum.

There have also been accordion-tuned, English-made, concertinas and even a Wheatstone Bandonion, but that is another story ...

Depends upon what you mean by "tradreed" and which tradreed. Consider flutinas, for instance....

"If you can put accordion reeds in a concertina, could you put concertina reeds in a melodeon(diatonic accordion)
Did any of the major concertina producers ever experiment with this?"

Edgley:
I believe Colin Dipper makes "Franglos". I may be mistaken, but I think I remember him telling me they were designed for French melodian (button accordion) players.

"QUOTE (Bob Tedrow @ Feb 24 2004, 08:13 PM)
QUOTE (Richard Morse @ Feb 24 2004, 06:05 PM)
What would a huffy-chuffy slow speaking bonebutton metal end Lachenal place on that scale?
A 10, even though it compares poorly to a snappy little edeophone?
I'd consider that Lachenal to be a 10."

BOB:"So, by default, any tradreed gets assigned a 10, regardless of tone?"

RICH:"Depends upon what you mean by "tradreed" and which tradreed. Consider flutinas, for instance...."

EDGLEY: (Response) Actually, the tones of "Vintage" concertinas varies so much from maker to maker it really isn't possible IMHO to classify them as such. For example, I have two Dippers made about 7 years apart. Each has a completely different sound. One is mellow and almost muted, while the other is loud and very bright. The same can be said of Wheatstones. Chris Droney's Wheatstone is about as far from an Aeola as you can get in tone. When we had him in Detroit a few years back, he played a concert for us (Comhaltas). Several of the local musicians asked what kind of concertina he was playing because they said it sounded so different from what they had heard a concertina sound like. Just compare the sound of a Jeffries to the sound of a Lachenal---very different. Then there's the wooden-ended vs the metal ended difference.
So, is there a difference between accordion-reeded instruments and the so-called "concertina sound"? Again, it depends which accordion-reeded instrument you are talking about. All of them sound different from one another, just as concertina-reeded instruments do. Some are warmer and mellower, and some are harsher and brighter. There is a difference in reed quality, for one thing. Hand-made "A Mano" reeds generally are sweeter sounding and very responsive with little pressure than the mass-produced "Durale" reeds. Not all accordion reeded concertina makers use "A Mano" reeds, as they are quite a bit more expensive. Then there are the differences between reed makers. Each will have a slightly different tone. Also, as Rich mentioned, there are design differences among concertina makers which can make an accordion-reeded concertina sound differently, or more "concertina-like", whatever that means.
Keep in mind the effects of "playing in" an instrument. No matter what anyone may say, concertinas do change in tone after being played. So comparing the sound of a hundred year old, oft-played instrument is not a well controlled comparison. I got the opportunity to hear and play one of my early concertinas a while ago. It was surprisingly similar to a certain vintage Wheatstone (no, not the later Boosy & Hawkes models). Since that early model, I have made significant changes in construction and design. I'm anxiously optimistic to hear what my newer models will sound like in a few years from now.
This is not a simple "black and white" issue. There are so many variables---personal tastes, vaiations between makers and models and years of constuction, individual perception, and personal bias. So I think Rich's scale idea , while valid, is difficult to generalise, and may well vary from person to person, etc.

A bit mysterious? The accordion and concertina reeds operate under different pressure conditions...but isn't that the result rather than the aim of the design of the whole box and the reeds are just what they are?
Low/high pressure reeds...you don't mean the opposite?? You can hardly create as high a pressure with an accordion as with a concertina so I guess that generally speaking the working pressure of concertina reeds is higher...?
....and are accordion reeds generally louder?...and.... have less dynamic range than concertina reeds? You mean they are louder at maximum but start speaking at a much louder level than concertina reeds? Is that general?.... and how is that measured?

The flutina is such an instrument.

If you test a single concertina reed under the same conditions as a single (same note) accordion reed (even in the same test chamber so that the pressure is identical), the concertina reed will start under significantly less pressure. An accordion reed requires more pressure to start. That's probably why they are termed "low" and "high" pressure reeds.

However and whatever pressure is created by the bellows is immaterial to the design and pressure responsiveness of the reeds. They will react as they do.

Yes, as an average, probably because accordion reeds tend to be harder and a bit stiffer than concertina reeds are. I also note the the hardness range of modern steel accordion reeds tends to be fairly narrow while the hardness range of steel concertina reeds is quite broad with most of them falling between the lower forties to mid fifties (Rockwell) with the notable exception being Jeffries which tops out a bit over 60.

Yes.

Mostly subjectively by empirical means (by us and hearsay). We've done some measured testing but not enough to definitively be able to quantify the results.

Speaking for myself, I prefer the tone of a little rosewood-ended huffy-chuffy etc, to that of an Edeophone (we had both in the house until recently).

The Franglo that Frank mentioned is basically a French melodeon realised as a concertina. That is the button layout and note assignments are the same as for a melodeon, but the construction techniques, reeds and indeed appearance are normal concertina. It is best regarded as a concertina system. Here's a picture of Colin playing one:-


Chris

And of course the legendary Lachenal Accordeaphone, of which we have one of the only 4 that still survive...

Chris

Taint necessarily so.


I can "carve" an "accordion" reed to speak as fast as a traditional concertina reed.


yessiree, I can.


Bob

I wasn't talking about how quickly a reed begins to speak but how little pressure it takes for the reed to begin to speak. Try testing them out side/side in the same jig. With similar qualities of reed and voicing, I would be *very* surprised if you could make the accordion reed speak with less pressure than the concertina reed no matter how much "carving" you do.

R


ah ah ah now, no backpedaling, you said:

"the concertina reed will start under significantly less pressure"


I can carve "accordion" reeds to speak at the same pressure, not at less pressure.


Now I want to point out that I could not always manage that behavior in my reeds. I had to change the way I set and tune reeds to do it. And it is harder to do so in the lowest pitch reeds although I can get pretty darn close on those too.

Seems like something easy to check too.

Here is my jig.


Bob

here is another shot of my dual reed setup.

Well, that shot is not so good.


In fairness, I do agree that stock reeds from the handful of Italian reedmakers are not suitable for direct installation into concertinas.

They must be properly carved and retuned for use in concertinas.



Say, why don't one of you boys with lots of time and enthusiasm build a similar jig,
Rich and I will each send in a reed that we have selected and have a little contest?

Sort of like a soap box derby for reeds?



Bob Tedrow

I don't understand what you mean...if the pressure inside the accordion box is less the (accordion) reeds will work at less pressure and maybe are not "designed" for higher pressure....
You mean the pressure over the reed slot...if you have not measured the difference and relations...."hearsay"....
Maybe what you notice is a demand for greater flow..possibly depending on the slot opening area? or different test conditions....

What matters is not how much pressure you can create, but how much you do create under normal playing conditions. I don't press or pull nearly as hard as I could on either concertina or accordion.

The question here is what the reeds do at working pressure levels and how/whether those levels differ for the two types of reeds, not how they react under extreme sports conditions.

Without getting into bellows sizes and how hard you squeeze it, pressure measurements, slot area, etc.... just think of two identical quality and pitched reeds in the same fixture as in the photos Bob has supplied above. The air chamber is open to both at the same time. If you slowly decrease the pressure from zero to more (because these jigs work on the "pull"), the concertina reed will start to sound before the accordion reed. At least that is my contention. Bob's suggestion for a "reed derby" is a good one and a fair way to evaluate parameters.

What's the problem?

Looks good to me! So what are your parameters and findings?

Who is "you boys"? An independent? I like the idea.

Maybe he means one of those with not enough other hobbies?

ok,

I have another jig here ready for the contest. We should agree on a note or two as the dovetail aperture will not fit every size reed.


I will ship the jig and my reed(s) to a third party. Hopefully one of you out there familiar with the working end of a handtool might volunteer.

With Rich's blessing of course.


Bob

another shot.

I want this jig back by the way and the reed too!

Bob

The Great Southern Reed Race


For those who still are interested in the topic of "reedspeed":

I will hold a demonstration of "traditional style reeds" VS properly carved and set
"accordion style" reeds at the South East Squeeze-in this coming weekend.

Watch for the exciting results next week.

Bob Tedrow

Has someone already taken you up on this? What are they supposed to do, exactly? Report which reed speaks first?

-Eric Root

Has someone already taken you up on this? What are they supposed to do, exactly? Report which reed speaks first?

-Eric Root

No one has taken me up so far, the issue was dropped like a hot potato.

I intend to demonstrate there is no significant difference at all in the the response of a properly prepared "accordion" style (I do dislike the term) reed and that of a traditional reed of similar pitch.

Actually, I will have set the jig up so that anyone can perform and observe the results. I will have it set up all weekend for those who wish to do so.

Bob

I wouldn't say it was dropped, but I am surprised at the lack of interest.

I look forward to the demonstration, or results I should say, as I won't be able to be there....

When you say "no difference at all" I hope you're planning on several tests: minimum pressure to onset of sound, range of amplitude (minimum to maximum loudness of sound), deviation from pitch over amplitude range.... I realize that this is beyond what we were talking about, but if this were all possible it would be a great demonstration.

What pitch reed (or will you be doing several) will you be using?

That's this weekend? I don't know if I can get the reeds down to you that quickly but if you set the concertina reed with the same care you do with the accordion reed, things should be comparable.

Yes, that's the original idea: to see which reed speaks first under the least amount of pressure.

[quote=Richard Morse,Mar 1 2004, 10:46 PM] [QUOTE]I intend to demonstrate there is no significant difference at all  in the the response of a properly


When you say "no difference at all" I hope you're planning on several tests: minimum pressure to onset of sound, range of amplitude (minimum to maximum loudness of sound), deviation from pitch over amplitude range.... I realize that this is beyond what we were talking about, but if this were all possible it would be a great demonstration.

What pitch reed (or will you be doing several) will you be using?

That's this weekend? I don't know if I can get the reeds down to you that quickly but if you set the concertina reed with the same care you do with the accordion reed, things should be comparable. [/quote]

Bob

[quote]I intend to demonstrate there is no significant difference at all  in the the response [/quote]

Rich

[quote]When you say "no difference at all" I hope you're planning on several tests: minimum pressure to onset of sound, range of amplitude (minimum to maximum loudness of sound), deviation from pitch over amplitude range.... I realize that this is beyond what we were talking about, but if this were all possible it would be a great demonstration.[/quote]

Hang on, I said there is no significant difference in the reeds response to pressure,

I believe you expect that we will note a significant difference in the two reeds response to pressure.


As far as testing the other factors lets leave that for another day. I am only prepared to show there is no significant difference in the behavior of the two styles of reeds.

[quote]What pitch reed (or will you be doing several) will you be using? [/quote]

A nice middle of the box G seems to me to be a good choice. I will bring a couple pitches.

[quote] if you set the concertina reed with the same care you do with the accordion reed, things should be comparable.[/quote]


But of course, I am after all, a gentleman and one of your biggest fans as well.


Bob Tedrow

Gents,

I have just re-picked up on this discussion, I am interested not only inthe result of the demonstration, but also in the conditions that will be applied.

I note that from Bob's pictures the acc reed seems to be mounted into a chamber, but not the con reed. Experience on my own tuning bellows and experiments with dummy chambers has shown that the chamber (or absence, or even size) can effect reed starting response. Its also fairly comon knowledge that con reeds responsivness can be affected by the reed set/ voicing/ tongue edge clearances, and I presume ditto with the acc reed.

I suspect that all will be proved is that specific acc reed in its doctored condition performs better/ worse than a specific con reed which may or may not be a typical example of a specific manufacturer of a certain period.

Such tests will need a very good statistical sample to be truly conclusive, but I admire your combined efforts.

Dave E

Lest we get too highbrow on this subject, my demonstration is merely to illustrate my position on this subject.

Strictly empirical and nonscientific I assure you.

Bob

Dave, I had to saw up a perfectly good 64 button Duet for this. I hope you are happy.


Here is a revised jig to address the issue of chamber depths:

Does the tip side of the concertina chamber extend all the way to the end of the construction shown in the photo? If so that may be mimicking the much older concertina chamber design. Since about the 1860's the tip end of the chambers has been reduced by a cross wall which is usually fairly close to the tip of the reed. This appreciably affects response.

There is a cross wall in this chamber. I left the valve in of course, cut an pad hole the same size as the original instrument, located the hole in the same relative spot as the original instrument.

How am I doing?


I found it easier to tell which reeds start first by using two different pitches.


Bob

Bob you have me interested in exactly what you mean by carved accordion reeds ? Do you use a tapered endmill and relieve the backside of the aluminum reed plate? Do you simply plunge the endmill near the tip end, or relieve this along the length of the reed slot? Do you taper it most of the thickness of the reed plate, almost to the top?
John O’Shaughnessy

Bob

spitting up a duet, sound like a divorce!

I agree on not being too highbrow, both reeds are chambered and have companion valves fitted, you have considered pad holes etc, seems good to me.

So what you really want now is a web-cam............................

Good luck with the trial, but I suspect that you have already run it, and know the answer.

Dave

Sounds like you're doing pretty well. Which two pitches are you using?

I've selected a "G" for my reed and fifteen or so traditional reeds, four "g" of the same octave and a bunch of others for good measure.

Bob