Hi joined today!

Sorry this is a bit long but I thought some background might help.

Started playing a few months ago. I have a 20 button C/G Stagi bought on ebay. I am part of a folk vocal harmony duo, we normally sing to guitar accompaniment or a capella. Want to use concertina to add interst and variety. At present will only use it to accompany singing. The style I've adopted is simple chords with left hand and melody or counter melody with right hand. Nothing flash, don't want to distract from the singing, but sometimes the song doesn't suit guitar and needs more than a capella.

Initially I borrowed and old German instrument in G/D. I found that these keys suited our vocal range well, but the instrument was nowhere near adequate. The Stagi I bought on ebay was advertised as G/D, but when I got it, it turned out to be C/G. I decided to keep it as I liked the sound, thought we could adapt and apart from the obvious limitation of 20 buttons which have to be constantly re-aligned, I'm getting on with playing it quite well. Soon be ready to use it in gigs, BUT..... C is just too low for our voices, so I'm going to have to get something in G/D.

I don't want to spend loads of dosh until I really feal ready and able to choose wisely. The only 30 button G/D I can find for less than £1000 (I think I can get an Ashdown, which as made by AC Norman, for about £750, but this is still too much really) is the Stagi for about £350.

So here's the question. If I can't afford a grand or more, should I wait until I can find a cheap G/D on ebay or go for the Stagi?

Incidentally for the simple accompaniment style I am currently using, I quite like the full sound of the octave paired accordian reeds in the Stagi as opposed to the single reed sound of a proper concertina.

I have checked the forums, but can't find anything that really answers this question.

All advice/help welcome!

Money saved when buying a musical instrument is normally money wasted.

If you like the paired accordian reeds sound, and want simple chordal accompaniment and simple melody or countermelody, would a D/G meolodeon be more suitable? Quality for quality, the melodeon would be cheaper, and they are more readily available.

Good point, but lugging a guitar and melodeon around to gigs doesn't appeal much. A concertina is a lot more manageable!

A bit of a problem. If you were after a C/G it would be easy because we'd point you at a Rochelle, but these only come in C/G flavour. If you can't afford better than a Stagi, then fair enough; however I would caution that a Stagi loses value much faster than a better instrument (indeed, the best instruments increase in value), so long term a better box might work out cheaper. At least that's something to tell yourself as you make the finances creak under the pressure.

Andy Norman makes nice instruments for the money. At the very least you should audition both before you finally decide.

Best of luck, either way.

Chris

PS I play mostly G/D. Good choice, there.

[quote name='Chris Timson' date='Apr 14 2008, 01:50 PM' post='70505']
A bit of a problem. If you were after a C/G it would be easy because we'd point you at a Rochelle, but these only come in C/G flavour. If you can't afford better than a Stagi, then fair enough; however I would caution that a Stagi loses value much faster than a better instrument (indeed, the best instruments increase in value), so long term a better box might work out cheaper. At least that's something to tell yourself as you make the finances creak under the pressure.

Andy Norman makes nice instruments for the money. At the very least you should audition both before you finally decide.

Best of luck, either way.

Chris

PS I play mostly G/D. Good choice, there.
I would look out for a two row d g lachenal,or jones, or a 26 key jones.,or get a repairer to adapt a 20 key c g
I would go for somerthing with proper concertina reeds,rather than accordion reeds.

I play a G/D and have one rented from the button box and another I was lucky enough to buy here. It was advertised as a 30 key C/G but when I got it much to my surprise and enjoyment it was a G/D

Does Stagi offer a low price G/D? Are you wanting a 20 or 30 key?

Not a valid point at all. A concertina is NOT a small, "lot more manageable" accordion.
It's more portable, but Hohners, Castagnaris and many other brands make very small and powerfull, 2 voice accordions, that are cheaper to buy than an good quality concertina. (while concertinas by some misterious reason rise in price, accordions depreciate).
Buy a concertina only if you want a concertina sound, not for any other reasons, like portability or looks.
If you want smallish all key, chromatic version of a 2 voice, octave tuned concertina to add interest and variety, why not look here?
Way under 1000 GBP.

One good point about Stagi is that they redesigned their action a few years ago, so the buttons no longer move in sleeves of gooey rubber tubing. The new action, at least as used in their Hayden Duet model, is pretty fast and clean. However, it is a little noisy, and as the instrument "wears in" the buttons get noisier -- but that shouldn't matter much to your relatively slow accompaniment playing.

But beware -- there are still a lot of used Stagis aroumd with the old button action, and they may even still be selling models new with the old system. I think that old acion earned Stagi a bad rep that's been hard to shake.

Whatever you choose, happy squeezing, and welcome to the Forum! --Mike K.

"A concertina is NOT a small, "lot more manageable" accordion."

IS. Only better.

Careful, someone may actually believe this.

I'm sure they all believe every word I say. Anyway it's exactly why I play duet, to get better-than-accordion capability (and a nicer noise too I now realise) out of a smaller package, so an Anglo, well it's miniscule, infinitesimal, microscopic. I bet that thing of yours weighs two tons as well, or as much as a big duet...

Don't know what thing of mine you mean, but my Pokerworks are small and light.
My Overture is a bit bulky, yes, but it has 4 voices, and it's middle name is Thunder.
An accordion has one seriously unbeatable quality though - you can play low bass with two-octave higher chord - with only two buttons!

That's exactly what I decided I had grown out of; letting someone else to pick my chords for me. I positively wanted to be able to choose my own notes. One button to play a chord is easy, yes, but it's someone else's chord.

(I wouldn't want to claim I'm making the most of these possibilities yet, mind you, but I am trying.)

Which means somebody else's chord is not necessarily worse than yours, at least while you are trying.
But one thing is obvious: playing duet the way you'd like to, is a bit more difficult than accordion, and playing duet accordion style is a waste of time, mostly.

True, and commendable. But, when playing for a dance, that stradella bass sure comes in handy (albeit, "someone else's" bass!)

The rubber tubing on the old Stagi action is easily replaced, even by an amateur. But the used Stagis on the market are most often C/G's, though the occasional G/D appears on eBay.

There's no really good bet for a starter G/D with more than 20 buttons. I went through this same process a year or two ago. I wound up starting with a new German-made octave-tuned 20-button that's actually a decent instrument, then graduated to an unusually nice 20-button mahogany-ended Lachenal that showed up here on c.net, then finally took a deep breath and ordered a new concertina-reeded one with 33 buttons at, of course, a much higher price.

A few of us tried to talk Wim Wakker into making a G/D (30-button) Rochelle a while back and he said he'd do it if he got firm orders for 60 of them up front, but I don't think the orders materialized. His new Clover line might be a good bet for you, but it's not yet known when they'll be available for sale or the exact price.

And I'm not sure that you'll be able to find an octave-tuned G/D with more than 20 buttons at all. I'm not aware that they exist, unless you want to go the Chemnitzer route...

Daniel

Good accordeonists and melodeonists don't let someone else choose their chords for them. They combine basses and chords and treble notes to make new combinations.

Not convinced of that one; you still have to build on some one else's chord.

Me, too, according to my friends... "very trying".

And I suppose my repeating that antediluvian joke proves their point.

With a Stradella (or melodeon) bass, adding more notes is easy, though the ease may depend on which notes you want to add. Leaving some out is not, nor is picking a different inversion.

But different people have different desires, needs, tastes, and goals. Some folks aren't interested in inventing their own chords and harmonies, and some have no desire for anything more complex than "the 3-chord trick". To each his/her own... which may or may not be "their own chords". I would say that Dirge's choice is certainly the right one... for Dirge.

And to relate this to the original Topic, in the right hands (literally) even a 20-button anglo can produce some fairly (some might say "surprisingly") sophisticated-sounding music.

Actual weights would be helpful in making comparsons. E.g., my own "big duet" -- an 80-button Maccann -- weighs about 3.15 kg, and I have a 26-button anglo that weighs 0.94 kg.

Of course, there are other factors, such as body straps to support the weight of accordions. (But just try swinging a 120-bass PA in a circle to get the special effect in "The Bells"! )

"Thread drift"? ... More like it's under full sail!

+1 for the general point, but aren't left hands involved at all?

Chris

I'd just like to add a note about cost. I recently sold a 26 key G/D Jones & the selling price was way way above the Stagi price quoted & I could have sold it for even more money. It seems improbable that you're going to find any in the price range the original poster is looking for unless a lot of work is required.

Pokerwork is about 3 kilo, just like your big duet.
the thread is not much adrift, as the question involved mentioning of octave tuned reeds on Stagi, which sound is more desireable. So it's not necessarily a concertina question, but rather the direction choice. So I think we gave plenty of directions, keeping in mind that octave double reeds. Accordions can be had with those double reeds in octave, still been small and portable, easy to learn and loud. 2/half rows offers chromatic possiblities.
A Duet may or may not be a wise choice for someone seeking "bandoneon" switch.

I guess by "trying" you mean "learning" different voicings of the same chord.

As for playing a Duet concertina acordion style, or "oom-pah", it has two advantages:
(1) ability to voice your chords as you like
(2) ability to slip out and back into oom-pah mode, with bass scale riffs, countermelody, or a couple measures of parallel 6ths harmony, etc.

And yes, I sometimes regard my Hayden Duet as a lightweight, compact accordion that I don't have to strap my whole upper body into before squeezing, and can hit most of the notes without looking. The fact that it can be so much more than an accordion is icing on the cake, a bonus. I've tried PA and it just makes me all the more eager to pick my Duet back up -- but that's me. --Mike K.

Don't disregard the most important feature of an accordion: low (two octave down) bass with high (two octave up) chord, where bass sounds the best and chord sounds the best with only two buttons depressed.
In this regard any Duet "Oom-pa" is weaker in comparison. Another one is that the treble side can only go down so far, in comparison to accordon's trebble side, spanning the whole range. In this view a Duet is a one very compromized "accordion"

Not interested. I sold my accordion when I was sure I'd make a go of the duet. I don't need an accordion any more. I have never missed it.

And Jim's right; it doesn't help our Anglo enthusiast here; he never showed the slightest interest in getting either a duet or an accordion in the first place. GD concertinas is the subject not 'I can play three reeds with one finger'.

Agreed! If you guys want to continue the accordion vs. concertina thread, can you move it elsewhere?

Wow! A self moderating thread!

Thanks for all the feedback. As a beginner I can't say I understood it all, but it makes you think things through again.

Not sure I'm much closer to the answer. No one has jumped in with a 'you must buy one of these' so I guess there's no obvious answer, which is more or less what I was expecting, but.....

I guess you get what you pay for, like any other musical instrument; quality costs!

I can't believe I was considering buying something unplayed/heard, when I think of how many guitars I tried before I bought my latest. I'll be visiting a few shops to see what I can find and play. £80 on ebay for what I've got now is OK, but I'd not thought the next step through at all!

On the accordian reeds; it depends upon where I think this will all lead. If I get serious about playing the instument rather than just accompanying song, I'll probably get to the point where I'd prefer the cleaner, more precise concertina reed sound. I finger pick rather than flat pick strum the guitar.

I'll keep my eye on ebay to see if a bargain G/D comes up but otherwise I'll be taking my time.

Not only.
The original question also included this line:

Steve; 2 points, firstly almost everyone seems to think you should buy the best instrument you can afford, secondly decent concertinas hold their value well so it is not money down the drain to buy a good one. (The money goes down the drain the moment you decide you can't live without it, and, indeed, would quite like a complementary reserve instrument.)

Why not put a wanted ad in the buy and sell forum and bring it back up to the top every now and then with another posting ('still looking') like wise sellers do? That's free and hits a concertinacentric audience.

Looks like that's the way I'm headed.



I might do that once I'm clearer in what I want to do.

Thanks

You MUST buy a . . . piano accordian

That's a quote from our thread originator, not from me. But I actually already own several piano accordions, though they don't get nearly as much attention as my concertinas.

Daniel