Help! after several years of self-teaching the English concertina, I find myself suddently bombarded with advice to the effect that it is wrong or at least less than correct to play successive notes (such as d/d/d/) on the same button with the same finger. I think I can relearn although it is difficult with respect to melodies that my fingers have already memorized. Is this true of all concertinas or just the English? Is it true of all music on the instrument? Please give me the weight of opinion on this matter.

I can't give you an opinion about fingering. I have been learning to play my English Concertina for a month now. But I admit I am very interested in any reply you receive. So far I have found no source of advice on fingering except for what's in the Tutor provided with the Jackie written by Wim Wakker of the Concertina Connection. Without quoting exactly, I can tell you that it says that it is BETTER to use two or three fingers because you can move faster. While the first finger is rising, the second is coming down. I am not up to finding out about that personally yet. Maybe next year, or the year after that.

Russell Hedges
"Aquarussell"

I would say that it is almost always better to play successive notes with a different finger. This means alternating fingers when playing the same note twice (or more), and also not "hopping" with the same finger to play two notes in succession on the same side.

It's not just that in so doing you can play faster - the point is that once you've got the hang of it you can do it with much more control than using the same finger... and the more you do it the better you'll get at it. It's useful in slow tunes too, when you want the gap between successive notes to be as short as possible. If you do it even when you don't need to, you'll be training yourself for when you do.

The exception to this is when swapping fingers would leave you in a position where you're unable to play the following notes properly. Even then, if you're playing traditional music you can usually work around the problem phrase by using some ornamentation.

For an example of swapping fingers, I'd play the beginning of the Clare jig:

eAA fAA | gfg ...

(f = f sharp)

with the following fingerings (1 = index finger, 4 = pinky)

121 321 | 232 ...

(actually, I'd probably use 2 on the left hand side, not 3... but that irrelevant)

even though you don't "need" to swap fingers on the A - you can just play the tune better if you do swap.

For fast triplets (esp. in reels) you really do need to alternate fingers, but don't get too hung up on it - there's other ornamentation too. It's also possible to use three fingers - 3-2-1 a bit like you would on a piano keyboard, though that's really quite hard. Works well in some situations though, because it imposes a rhythm on things.

Nial Vallely (sp? with Nomos) uses alternating fingers etc on the Anglo - there's an interview on the web somewhere about that. So does my brother.

Hmm...

Well, I still consider myself 'new' on the English. But, I find that there are some tunes I'm practicing -- i.e., Harvest Home, at the 'posted speed' as given at the Virtual Session http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/r2music/folk/sessions/ -- in which I use the same finger on the fast notes (fast for me, anyway, heheh) and it seems very awkward to use more than the one finger.

(Most of what I play, my own stuff and not a lot of trad tunes, doesn't have a lot of fast spots, anyway....lucky for me.)

If there's any reason why I'd be better off to not use the same finger on those fast notes, I'd like to know...

I'm referring to measure 9, where the second part of the tune starts.

okay....on second thought...

I can see that it does help, to switch fingers, if you're going to play a REALLY, REALLY fast note.

But....me, I'll probably not bother....

My recollection is that when I asked Alistair Anderson about repeated notes in a workshop many years ago, he advised using one finger and just working at it to build up speed.

I pulled out my copy of Alistair's "Concertina Workshop" this evening to see if he says something on the subject there. He does, sort of.

After "The One Horned Sheep," Alistair writes, "If you have difficulty with the repeated notes I'm afraid you'll just have to practise. It's really worth it!" He doesn't explicitly say there to use one finger, but I think he would have mentioned it if he was suggesting using alternating fingers.

In a related vein, he advises against bringing one finger under another when dropping down a fifth, say, from d down to G. (I'm using the ABC notation convention to indicate which octave I'm talking about.)

I think you will find it sounds totally different playing a triplet on one note with just the one finger hitting it 3 times to hitting it with 2 fingers e.g 1/2/1 or whatever is available at the time.

Try drumming/tapping the table and hear the effects.

Sharron

Howsabout playing in D or A - more repeated buttons to choose from?

A couple things about this. Alistair also talks about playing in a very stacatto manner, and even mentions using this to create more separation of notes. His Concertina Workshop is also a beginners tutor and is directed at playing trad tunes.

What about when you don't want that separation between notes? To play more smoothly you just have to use two fingers in these situations. Also, I think Alistair is in the minority here. I've read about this quite a few times, and it's a pretty standard technique to use two fingers in both these situations. Why not learn both ways?

For dropping down a fifth (example was d to G) I'd say you want to always use two different fingers, unless there is a very specific reason not to. Using two fingers in this situation is one of the first things taught in the Carlin tutor.

I agree with what Danny wrote in his post up above......try to use two different fingers at all times unless there is a good reason not to.
bruce boysen

Bruce B wrote:

Neither of those facts invalidates the advice. Yes, the book does start at the beginning, but it will take the trad player pretty far. And it's no more of a beginner's tutor than the Carlin book, which Bruce quotes approvingly.

The reason I cited Alistair was to refute the notion advanced at the top of this thread that single-finger techniques are "wrong." Personally, I use all of the above techniques: single-finger repetitions, alternating-finger repetitions, single-finger fifth changes, two-finger fifth changes. It all depends on the context. It's best, I think, to have all of these tools at hand. (Or maybe that should be "in hand" )

RatFace wrote:

I think Niall's fingers are fast enough to do it any way he chooses. Since I'm now using his CD-ROM tutor to learn anglo, I'll note my impression is that he's against hard and fast rules. Also, I think switching fingers on anglo is easier than on English due to the button size and spacing.

Who's your brother?

I have tried using the two-three finger method and fingers really get in the way ot each other. Sometimes I think it is from all the years my hands have been through a lot of banging from heavy tools, chainfalls and all the wear and tear that goes along with that. I play a lot of dance tunes at 110-120 beats per minute (sometimes it is more like try and play) and if find that on the fast successive notes I use the single finger method but allow my arm and wrist to get into the act which, when I am on a roll, the finger pretty much stays down allowing the bellows action to produce the notes. It takes some practice. Otherwise I try to do a three different note ornamentation or a three finger chord to avoid the succesive notes. This actually makes it interesting.

Sam Chapman. He's a nobody like me ) He's studying in London at the moment, and I think plays in some sessions there, but I'm not sure how much.

A bit more on Niall Vallely (at the risk of hijacking the thread into an anglo discussion):

While I'm strictly a beginner on the anglo, I looked ahead in his CD-ROM tutor to see what he does with repeated notes.

Even the "advanced" section of the tutor, he uses a single finger for two-note repetitions, e.g., in The Connaugtman's Rambles (FAA dAA ...).

Where he advocates switching is in a roll-type ornament with a note, a cut, then three fast repetitions of a single note, e.g.,

a{b}(3aaa

From this I infer that his approach is to use different fingers when speed demands it; in other situations the single-finger method is OK.

hi, my old concertina teacher insisted I play with different fingers on the same note and it certainly makes a triplet sound a lot better. He said good practice when a box was not available was to put the smallest of any coins in your pocket on the arm of the chair and practice striking it with different fingers both left and right hand. I used to do this often at home and at work and it did help, it worked for me , try it. Peter.

JQQ: changing fingers vs. repeating same finger: CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT. . . . . .and there is no right and wrong. . . . .there is only CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT. . . . . .you might like to sneak a peak at the tutor that i just published, though it's certainly not intended for "newbies". . . . . . . you can get an idea of what it's like by going to the button box website..............allan

Hi Friends,
There is only one correct way to play successive repeated notes on a concertina. and that is definitly with the use of 2 or 3 fingers. I haven't seen any other tutor than the old Regondi one ( and of course Iwas lucky to have an experienced player, my father, to teach me ) but any tutor that proposes the use of one finger for this purpose gives me the impression that the author was not properly trained. I think that when learners are asking for advice on this and any similar forum, the advice offered should be flawless. JOHN NIXON.

Hi Friends,
There is only one correct way to play successive repeated notes on a concertina. and that is definitly with the use of 2 or 3 fingers....
....any tutor that proposes the use of one finger for this purpose gives me the impression that the author was not properly trained. I think that when learners are asking for advice on this and any similar forum, the advice offered should be flawless. JOHN NIXON.

Gosh!...Well, not a bad point - if realistic - but seriously:DO you want us all to shut up John?
I say NO WAY!!! just to take a position:-) There are too many circumstantial factors involved in almost all performance situations to make statements like this meaningless but Allan said that too in other words..... The biological approach is not
always applicable but:
Firstly (someone already said it...) the individual width of fingers may set a limit.
Secondly the occasional demand of speed is decisive for the possible advantage of changing fingers at all. If not 'speedy' enough there is nothing to gain in 'perfection' or 'control' by changing fingers
Thirdly (Allan's favourite....) the 'context' is important...you mostly do not repeat a note without any relation to what comes before or after and both decide what finger(s) you may (individually too!!) choose depending on articulation modes, bindings,phrasing and so on

If you take this and a maybe even some more in consideration you may approach your state of being "flawless" but I fear you then end up in another of Allan's favourites :"there are no rules".
(But I can't of course agree completely.....so just a reminder of the additional: GR: "but we can't escape the laws of nature"....)

Goran Rahm

Yes, my problem is with the 'MASHED PORTATOES' (ha, ha, ha)!

(Portato is somewhere between legato and staccato.)

At this point in my playing, I like the staccato that I get from using the same finger on a triplet if that seems most effective.

Switching fingers, I get a mooshier sound. Good for some things, I guess.

Okay, so I say that I agree with everyone who says that the more ways one knows how to approach a given musical situation, the better off and more musical one will be in the long run. I've learned of 4 (as I count them now) ways to approach playing the same note 2+ times in a row:

1- Use the same ole cotton pickin' finger, because it's already there. (Good for much but the faster of tempos.)

2- Switch fingers. (Takes practice, but ain't all that hard.)

3- Switch bellows direction. (Taken to extreme can become a 'sorta' piano accordeon 'bellows shake.')

4- If you're playing folk-type music, substitute a tongue, cut and tap, sort of sounding thing.

I'm sure there's a myriad other approaches.

My take on it again: as a musician, the more ways you know how to do something, the better of you'll be in the long run.

OR: learning a new technique will ONLY HELP your musicianship.....

Aldon

I am an anglo player but agree with Allan that there is no right or wrong; Listen to opinions, and take advice, but in the end do what works for you.

I use two, and occassionally three, fingers on a melodeon, but, as 'fiddlersgreen' says, on a concertina I just find that the fingers get in the way of each other, mainly becuse the target (ie button) is so small compared with a melodeon. When using two fingers I find I that the first finger has to be well out of the way before the second one can get in, and I find that I can actually move a single finger up and down quicker than I can do that.

A lot must depend on the geometry of the keyboard and the shape/size of the individuals hand and fingers.

One other thing of course, when using two fingers on one button it leaves you less fingers to do anything else with. eg I sometimes will hold one button down while doing a triplet on another note. Perhaps this is less relevant on an english.

Clive.

The Salvation Army tutor for the English concertina clearly advises using two fingers on reiterated notes. The relationship with the concertina and the S.A. goes back a long way and for many it also included membership of the concertina bands
that were once a way of life in the north of England.
I have been studying the English for several years now and good tutors are hard to come by but this publication is one of the most comprehensive I have found. First published in the thirties with the rather stilted phraseology of that era, it gives many exercises, chord progressions and pieces for the student to tackle that would probably take several years to reach proficiency in all if one followed it religiously.
Admittedly a lot of the pieces are hymn tunes but that doesn't bother me. If I could play ''What a Friend we have in Jesus'' like I once heard played by Freddy Gardener on sax it would all have been worthwhile.
Whatever you decide to do can later be hard to undo should you wish to change so remember that probably the one advantage a beginner has is that they have the option.
Good luck.

All I can say on the topic of alternate fingers on the same button is that over the years I have met two "Classical" players of the English concertina. Alex Richards and Frank Butler who if they were still alive would be around a hundred years old today. They both insisted that repeated notes should be played with alternate fingers and from this I deduce that in the 19th century this was the preferred method. I play the duet myself and find that is only possible with certain notes, though on the duet it is possible to use the duplicated octave on bass and treble to obtain the effect.
Yours Concerternally,
Richard Evans