Avery good morris dancer told me once, that one has to play at different speeds on tarmacadam to grass.what are the members views on this and varying speeds between the different morris e.g .border ,cotswold,. and clog.

I play for two different sides and they dance at different speeds. My team, Pokingbrook (yes, Larry Stout's team from 30 years ago--we just made that connection since we met at the last North East Squeeze In), has a men's side for which I am the primary musician, and a women's side, for which I play when asked.

The other musicians for the women play faster than I do, and the dancers are used to dancing faster than I like to play, although I accommodate that and play for them at their tempo. The men, on the other hand, dance at my speed although I suspect they would drift faster and faster if I let them. It's particularly evident in sticking figures, when I feel like I'm holding back wild horses.

I have no idea how fast the men dance when I can't make it to a gig and one of the women plays for them.

EDITED FOR TYPO

There are so many variables:

* Grass, tarmac, gravel, concrete, polished wood; all surfaces could significantly affect what is the "correct" tempo.
* Ability of the dancers.
* Time of the day (i.e. whether the dancers are tired after several dance spots).

What is exactly the right tempo, one day, will possibly not be the next day, even if exactly the same dancers are in the set. This could be a reason for suggesting just one musician on any one dance (especially for Cotswold or Rapper). The difference between "correct tempo" or "too fast/slow" can be minute, but detectable by the dancers.

When I played for "Old Palace Clog" (Women's NW), I always played very slightly slower when indoors on a wooden floor. The last thing you want is dancers falling over due to turning faster than the surface permits (Slip Stop on the clog rubbers helped, but, due to cost, was only used at big events, i.e. Folk Festivals, when supplied by the organisers). Grass and gravel were the surfaces least liked by the NW team.

At one time (1986/7), I was playing for three Cotswold sides (some dancers were in two or three of these sides). As part of the repertoire was common to all three sides, it made playing the music interesting (especially if you ended up playing for two sides over the same weekend):

* "North Wood Morris" danced at the fastest pace (although a Morris Ring side, the emphasis was on "putting on a show for the public" rather than dancing technique).

* "Wych'uns Morris" danced at a slightly slower tempo, with better technique (this side came together from a North Wood splinter, plus remnants of Downes Morris [possibly the finest side in Penge]).

* "Downes-on-Tour Morris" [possibly the finest side outside Penge] consisted of Downes members who had moved away, plus members of Great Western, Redbornstoke, Sarum, teams. The dancing of Downes-on-Tour was much slower, with the emphasis on height, hanging in the air, and technical ability . If space was unlimited, the six man set could go out to 10 yards wide by 20 yards long, with dancers disappearing off into the distance, only to re-appear at the right place in the set, at exactly the right time. Bob Dunlop, Robin Jones and myself were the regular musicians from 1985 to 1989. The dancers were amazed at our ability to play the Morris, considering that none of us danced.

Regards,
Peter.

The other day, at a fete in Corsham the side was offered a grubby, uneven and cracked slab of concrete to dance on. Since the only alternative was grass, and the girls heartily detest grass for clog morris, they danced on the concrete but asked us to play ultra-slow. In the event nobody broke any ankles.

Since clog morris is, as far as possible, danced on a hard surface issues like the above rarely arise in the side. Our speed is set by the drummer. As she is an ex-dancer she is assumed to know the correct rate; even so, we have a protocol worked out so we can speed up or slow down at the dancers' request.

Chris

I am sure that Chris will remember a brilliant Morris side called I think called "Old Spot"
They certainly appeared at Sidmouth.Their music was played at about half the speed of the normal Morris sides, but they were so athletic they used to leap enormously high on each figure.They were certainly the best and most exciting Morris side I have ever watched.
Al

I do. Saw them take over the Blackbirds folk club in East London for an evening lo! these many years ago. Think Rod Stradling was playing for them.

Chris

Hi Alan,

I'll jump in here, if I may. Yes, "Old Spot" (from Gloucestershire). I think more latterly known as "Old Old Spot", after a split occurred. As part of "Downes-on-Tour", I had the pleasure of being on the same Cotswold tour as "Old Spot", on a "Stroud Morris" Weekend of Dance. I say weekend; I only played the Saturday, then had to dash back to Croydon to play for Wych'uns (in front of two men and a dog) on the Sunday, while Bob Dunlop made the reverse trip, having played for Wych'uns on the Saturday. Guess who had the more rewarding Sunday?

Paul Burgess danced with "Old Spot" back in the early days. I've just dug out the "Old Swan Band" album "Gamesters, Pickpockets and Harlots", the notes of which show a photograph of "Gloucester Old Spot" in their "spiritual home, Longborough".

Another really athletic side to appear at Sidmouth 1985, was "South Downs Morris", with Roger Watson as musician (if memory serves me correctly).

At "Downes-on-Tour" practice sessions, the Foreman was Mick Griffiths (hard task-master), and our dancers adopted some of the "Great Western" style, particularly with regards to the leapfrogs. This involved the "backs" standing, legs a pace apart, with heads bowed forwards. However, this was done in a circle of maybe 12 to 15 dancers, with two men leapfrogging simultaneously. With several dancers at 5' 9" or taller, it amazed me just how high these guys could leap.

Regards,
Peter.

I remember some years ago, a longsword side found unexpectedly they had to dance on grass as it was the only suitable space available. For each dancer, a large worm popped up to see what was going on!!

- John Wild

Could this be the origin of the phrase 'a worm's eye view', I wonder? Or an example of it?

- Chris

Not sure which of the three current Morris threads in which to place my soap box....

Many years ago when I was first involved in playing for Morris, I was taught by far older and more experienced dancers and musicians that the musician(s) accompany the dancers. It is the dancers who set the time, not the musician. The dancers are the "stars" of the show. The speed should be their decision, not that of the musician(s).

I have adopted this philosophy with other dance display teams that I have accompanied over the years, and also when playing at dances involving the participation of the general public. I believe it has stood me in good stead.

Maybe this has come to be seen as an old fashioned view. On both my last couple of visits to the UK and here in Australia, the Morris dancers I have seen have appeared to me to be very much dancing to the dictates of the musicians.

When playing, I was always prepared to play through the A music at varying speeds, as many times as it took for the foreman to be happy with the speed, and once the dancers were under way I continually watched the dancers' feet in order to adjust my speed to the conditions encountered and to the ability and agility of the dancers, and to the instructions of the foreman.

Nowadays, there seems to be a trend towards the dancers having to "keep up with the music..." and the musicians playing to the gallery.

Or maybe I've been watching the wrong sides...

Rant over. Soapbox back under the sink.

MC

We seem to use the same brand of soap.

I'll make one additional point: It's frequently said that the musicians "accompany" the dancers. I think it's more appropriate to say that the musicians should "assist" the dancers. E.g., the music can provide "drive" and "lift", but it can only do so by emphasizing the natural movement of the dancers, not by either "pushing" or "pulling" them.

Since the speed that is best for the dancers will vary according to many factors -- who's dancing, the weather, team style, amount of ale consumed so far, amount of beer waiting to be consumed, etc., -- the only way to get it right is (as others have said) to be aware of and senstive to the dancers. And to each other, if there's more than one musician, but still primarily to the dancers.

Hi Malcolm,

Watching the feet of the dancers is a good reference point, but the musician also needs to watch how the dancers are using the available space.

Along with other experienced musicians, I've also "got it wrong" (played too fast) when watching feet alone. I've found that the best ploy is to watch the best couple of dancers, to see whether they look comfortable utilising the available space, with occasional reference to the feet of the same dancers (as a check). I also look at the faces of any dancers who are prepared to look at the musicians, whilst dancing; they tend not to smile if they are struggling in any way. The other important point is to listen out for the Foreman, or No.1 dancer, just in case they want to adjust the tempo.

Regards,
Peter.

Whilst agreeing that a large part of playing for morris is "assisting" the dancers I would say that there is more of a tendancy in North West Morris for the musicians to set the pace for the dancers, as opposed to Cotswold where the dancers must be accompanied.
Speed is very different between sides. Wrigley Head dance the fastest of those that I know. Some musicians cannot put in any embelishments to the bare tune at the pace we play!
We played at a joint dance out for John o' Gaunt and Crook Morris on Monday and even between two sides doing the same dance on the same surface the speed difference was noticable.
Don't forget you have to allow for gravity when dancers are jumping, so the more athletic sides may require a slower pace.

Robin Madge

I meant watching the dancers' feet in general terms, both in relation to what they are doing AND where they are!

I did mention "instructions of the foreman"; I meant in relation to tempo, though it is also essential to listen for calls which might, especially under the influence of certain amber fluids, be at odds with both the tradition and the previous practice night!

Looking at facial expressions can be a worry if sides are blacked up! However, point taken.

MC

One problem with a discussion such as this is that the word "Morris" -- like the word "concertina" -- means radically different things to different people. "Cotswold", "Northwest", and "Border"among Morris dances are about as different from each other as "English", "anglo", and "duet" among concertinas. (And there are those who use the term "Morris" to include even longsword, rapper, garland, etc.)

So discussing "speed for Morris" without specifying which kind of Morris is about like discussing "fingerings for concertina" without specifying which kind of concertina. Just as we spit the "fingering" discussions into English/anglo/duet and fhe anglo further into Irish/English and "Irish" further into C-home-row/G-home-row/cross-row, so similar subdivisions (e.g., "Cotswold" into "black shoe" and "white shoe") may be necessary before much sense can be made of a "speed" discussion.

I was mentored by a now long dead English concertina player (Leslie Nichols of Greensleeves MM and one time squire of the Morris Ring) who was insistent that as a musician we were here to " serve" the dance and dancers.I play for the Toronto MM and this is my approach. I have certain experienced dancers that I use as my metronome who know what speed THEY want the dance.........my first few bars are merely an opening negotiation!! They dance the speed they want and wait for me to get in the groove as they start.......sometimes I'm there from the foot-up , sometimes I'm not but I am ALWAYS aware of what they need. If I am playing for a side with no experienced dancers, then my speed is only a suggestion as to what they might like to try ( and would choose when they too are experienced dancers !!! )
Two notes........we tend to dance quite slowly ( I think N.American sides do, compared to English sides,Old Spot excepted...................but this is thread better dealt with on the MDDL) so the sticking often does seem ponderous.So we do speed up for that and then I do have to pull the music back to where it was.Dave Barnert is dead right on that.
Second........these more experinced dancers will often say to me after a particular dance, " Robin was that a little brisk, do you think ?" or "Boy , you're killing me at that tempo"............My response is usually " I tried to play it at our usual speed but you wouldn't let me !!"....................and I've found this relates not to the surface we dance on ( to address Dick's original question) but to the time of day and how tired the dancers are ( or early-morning-stiff-Ibuprofen-hasn't-kicked-in-yet!)
Cheers Robin

As a PS....I've found that the musician is always wrong and when I say that I am only here to serve the Dancers they say "Well buy us all a pint, play the right tune and stop whining" ............. A servant I truly am and love it.

"Servant & Morris"... is that what "S&M" stands for?

Slightly OT, but I once played for a ceilidh on someone,s lawn. The audience weren't folkies and the girls were all dressed to the nines with high heels, which they soon removed and danced in bare feet. About half-way through second dance they all started screaming as the worms rose to the surface ...

Slightly off topic ??

To bring us back slightly towards topic, I remember playing for "Old Palace Clog" at a fete in Dulwich Park. We turned up to find an immaculate dancing stage set up on a convenient grassed area, and a good-sized crowd soon gathered . Our band assembled on stage, and the dancing began.

I think that the first dance went well (our standard set was five or six dances), however, during the second dance, we started to notice unfamiliar looks on the faces of the dancers . This soon became , and we realised what was happening. The stage was in sections about 8 feet x 6 feet, laid directly on the grass, and the weight of NW Clog dancers landing on the corners of each section was driving the metal posts straight down into the ground!

By the end of our set, the dancers were having to dance up and down what appeared to be a miniature version of the Alps. Amazingly, no-one slipped or fell. Needless to say, for our second and third sets, we abandoned the stage, and found some nice, solid, concrete.

Regards,
Peter.

My good friend Mr. Playford tells me it wasn't a worm, it was "Dick's Maggot".
(Whooo Fnnarr Fnnarr)

I wrote:and others offered different philosophies:
What's the quote? "In theory there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." It would be lovely to have a team of dancers that could keep a steady tempo, all together, allowing me to play along to enhance the overall picture, but I really feel that without a tune to lock onto, my guys would be dancing at six different tempos, all of them faster than they should be (and faster for each successive figure) not because of differences of opinion, but lack of discipline. Perhaps that sounds insensitive on my part, but I think that most of them would agree.

By the way, I would add to the musician's tasks (assisting the dancers, etc) the following: An important part of our job is to play in a way that helps to perpetrate the illusion that the dancers are dancing more gracefully than they actually are. By delaying an occasional downbeat minutely, we make it seem like the dancer has landed a little later, spending more time in the air (see my 4th law, which parodies this). By playing energeically, we make it seem like the dancers are expending a great deal of energy. Etc.

two very good examples ,ihave heard on recordJOHN WATCHUM ON ANGLO INTERNATIONALanJOHN KIRKPATRICKonBOXING CLEVER .JOHNKIRKPATRICKS PLAYING IS A PRETTY GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE SPEED AND STYLE FOR COTSWOLD MORRIS .

I'd certainly agree when it comes to style, and recommend listening to these players .

Tempo is another matter entirely; music for the Morris is purely functional, as indicated previously in this thread. Take away the dancers (i.e. when playing the music in a club/festival setting, or for a recording) and it can sound very laboured at the same tempo. I would generally play faster than "correct" dance tempo under these circumstances. With commercial recordings, other than those which are for educational purposes, I think that you'll find most musicians doing likewise. So, you effectively get "correct" listening tempo, rather than "correct" dancing tempo.

I've not heard "Boxing Clever", so it could be that John K. plays at dancing tempo on this album.

Regards,
Peter.

[quote name='PeterT' date='May 20 2006, 04:20 AM' post='39704']
[quote name='dick miles' post='39700' date='May 20 2006, 09:42 AM']
two very good examples ,ihave heard on recordJOHN WATCHUM ON ANGLO INTERNATIONALanJOHN KIRKPATRICKonBOXING CLEVER .JOHNKIRKPATRICKS PLAYING IS A PRETTY GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE SPEED AND STYLE FOR COTSWOLD MORRIS .
[/quote]
I'd certainly agree when it comes to style, and recommend listening to these players .

Tempo is another matter entirely; music for the Morris is purely functional, as indicated previously in this thread. Take away the dancers (i.e. when playing the music in a club/festival setting, or for a recording) and it can sound very laboured at the same tempo. I would generally play faster than "correct" dance tempo under these circumstances. With commercial recordings, other than those which are for educational purposes, I think that you'll find most musicians doing likewise. So, you effectively get "correct" listening tempo, rather than "correct" dancing tempo.

I've not heard "Boxing Clever", so it could be that John K. plays at dancing tempo on this album.

Regards,
Peter.
[/quoteGoodPoint Peter,my partner who used to be avery good dancer wi th new esperance,reckoned that both john kirk patrick on boxing clever and john watchum on anglo international were good for dancing to
in fact she started leaping round the room ,capering etc etc.

Peter wrote some time ago...


I'm not so sure about music for morris being purely functional. Yes, it has a function, but it's our job to make it enjoyable to listen to, at the same time as being great to dance to.

Good morris music can make a dancer better than they would naturally be. If we tweak the rhythm, they can get more height or dance a caper or galley better than they would do on their own. But we must never loose sight that we're also part of the entertainment.

Lawrence Wright (former Old Spot) and I often describe the dancers as "adding a little colour to our performance" when we're playing for The Outside Capering Crew. Once, one of our dancers was watching & listening to us play for two of our dancers performing a double jig, and came up, stood in front of the stage and started waving his arms to try & get us to speed up. We naturally ignored him (which infuriated him). We knew we were playing at the correct speed for those two dancers, so we all gave the best performance. Had the waving chap been dancing, we'd have played faster to fit his performance needs...

One of the hardest tasks I've had was playing for a former Mr Jorrocks dancer - so, so slow. It wasn't so much a tune as a series of pulses. Great fun trying to turn it back into a tune at the speed the dancer wanted!

Mark

The musician strikes back! I like this description.

Hi Mark,

Welcome to the Forum. Hope that you are keeping well.

Regards,
Peter.

I got to know Mr Jorrocks quite well in the 1990s, and I always thought they gave their best performances when just their regular musician Jessica was playing. She was a superb musician, playing 3-hole pipe and drum, and understood exactly the tempo to play at so that the dancers appeared to be defying gravity. Jessica's music was, as you say, slow, slow, slow and had 'air' between the notes and drum beats. The overall rhythmic pulse of the tune was definitely flexible, depending on the movement required in the dance.

I remember the ssssllloooowwwww and flexible tempos of Mr. Jorricks as being so eccentric and yet right for their lofty ambitions. The Bowery Boys of New York City, though not so slow, have that same flexibility when dancing to Jessica Murrow’s pipe and tabour. She places the beat in such a way as to egg the dancers on to greater feats of flight. There is a give and take between the music and the dancer that makes for a very exciting performance. You never quite know what’s going to happen next (or to be more precise, when exactly it will happen). This sort of rhythm is much harder with a band playing and I’ve rarely heard it done with more than two musicians.

I agree with the comments about "Mr Jorrocks" and "The Bowery Boys", and recall seeing them dance back in the 80's. I could be wrong, but, from memory, I saw "The Bowery Boys" at a Morris Ring Meeting.

When dancers require music which is very slow (in comparison to sides which dance at a faster tempo) it all comes down to interpretation by the musician. Two, or more, musicians would have to be well practiced, and need to play to the same dancer in the set, for the music to sound "perfect", otherwise there would be slight "phasing" on occasions. This is why a solo musician is generally better for Cotswold Morris.

Regards,
Peter.

I should add that I wasn't playing for Jorrocks, but for Rob who had moved up to Stroud. I was aware of Jorrocks style - they were the 'other' team on my first ever morris dance out, and had seen them many times after that. I was with The World Famous Ashdown Mummers, having joined as my next-door neighbour ran them. And also happened to run a concertina repair service from his basement - Andy Norman, from whom I eventually purchased one of his own-brand concertinas.

It was hard to play for Rob, but quite a pleasure to get both the speed he needed and a tune that was listenable to. Playing for Seven Champs was a lot easier after that - it felt like a high speed chase in comparison (even though they were much slower than most Cotswold sides).

My comment about 'adding a little colour to our performance' is occasionally announced when we've been dancing out - and all our dancers have been named and taken a bow, but Lawrence & I have been left out. We love the dancers really. Most of the time.

As for working with the dancers, I'm not sure how we do it - it just happens. I think what happens is that I watch the dancers, give the pulse & rhythm that they need and Lawrence adds more ornamentation over the top. We've never discussed it, but it seems to work OK.

Speed is inversely proportional to average age of dancers.

It isn't the bits you play that make the difference, its the bits in-between.