Which would be this one. Has anyone tried to get a look at it? How about a guess as to the final price? It looks very much like my own Anglo, except mine has no nameplate and is therefore "worth" considerably less.

Daniel

I wouldn't like to guess at a final price. There are some very silly people out there right now. But I have to say it is the very model of a good eBay listing. "limes52" should be commended for outlining exactly the areas of uncertainty, though it is a shame he/she wasn't able to get a player to check the key first.

Chris

Edited to add PS: notice that although the vendor is English the bidding is in dollars.

Ebay offers you dollars as default currency; if you are too dopey to tick the box for pounds (you only need to do it the first time you list) you get dollars in your listing. I think too some of the junk dealers see America as the best market for their tat. (and maybe they are right?) so then $ might make sense. I know I, bidding from England and therefore with an advantage on the postal charges find it infuriating to see UK prices quoted in dollars implying that to buy I pay to convert £ to $ and the seller will then pay AGAIN to convert $ to £. It just brings in complication and uncertainty and loses money to middlemen. If I see the seller volunteering to do money convertions for purchasers I assume he's a robbing sod and hoping to make on the conversion. Thoroughly irritating business (you can probably tell!). I avoid sellers like this, and it probably reinforces their theories that the USA pays the best prices if others do the same!

Are you talking about that other Jeffries that just sold? It was Chris Algar's bid of $5250 that pushed the winner up to $5350. The winner's limit may actually have been higher, but the (frightening?) truth is that Chris A. -- arguably the most expert judge of market price -- apparently felt it was worth paying £3000 and then paying to restore it before resale. The next bid below Chris was only $4700, nearly 10% less.

I think it depends on "where" you log on. If I go to www.ebay.com, it defaults to dollars. If I go to www.ebay.co.uk, it defaults to pounds.


It's worse than that with PayPal (which is owned by eBay, no?). I have a dollar-denominated account with my Danish bank, but PayPal will not allow me to either pay or receive in dollars, even when the other end is dollars. I.e., if I want to pay with the dollars in my dollar account, PayPal will insist on receiving it as kroner (a conversion I would have to pay my bank to do), then charge me to convert it back to dollars to make the payment. And if I only had kroner, my bank would be glad to convert it and make a payment directly in dollars, but PayPal won't allow that. They insist on being the ones to do the conversion, and their charges are double what my bank charges.

And of course, if a Dane is selling something, they can't list a price in dollars, so if I were to win such an auction and pay via PayPal, they would charge for double conversion. Better I should get the seller's bank account number, have my bank transfer a kroner payment based on the published interbank exchange rate, then have the seller tell eBay that payment has been made. Both buyer and seller would have to agree to that, of course, but we could both come out money ahead as a result.

Ye gods, you're right that's even messier.

You can change your account settings and receive/make payments in a variety of currencies on paypal. I take euro, $ and sterling payments for 'They'll be good yet' and transfer them into the bankaccount in euro. I don't think Paypal makes an exception for Danish account holders.

But isn't that my point? PayPal converts them to Euro before putting them into your account. Or are you saying that you have three separate accounts connected to PayPal, one for each currency, and your bank does the final conversion?

I have corresponded with PayPal, and they told me their rules don't allow that. They won't even put dollars into a US bank account if the address to which the bank statements are sent is outside the US.

I could have told you paypal wouldn't respond to reason. Must be nice to have your market so stitched up that you don't need to even try and keep your established customers happy. I couldn't even get a CEO name out of them to write to when I lost patience with them. I use them but I don't like them!

When I almost got caught in that scam a short while back, no one did well out of the exercise except for Paypal who managed to convert my US$ payment to C$ to be withdrawn from/paid into a US$ visa account where Visa converted it back to US$!

Of course, this pays for Paypal as they have a hidden fee in their exchange rate. I still haven't got them to recognise this US$ card as US$.

If you can avoid Paypal I recommend you do although sometimes it is impossible to avoid them.

"Winning bid: US $5,900.00"

Eeeek!

Compared to the first one that is a steal!

A dangerous recommendation. With Paypal you have at least some protection. If you bypass it, you're only too easily ripped off. The only alternatives I accept on some occasions are cash-on-collection and UK personal cheques, but usually I sell through Paypal only.

I'm not sure whether, practically, there is real cover with Paypal. Try getting Paypal to address your issues. I've been trying to get them to change their records re my US$ Visa for about two months now with no success.
If you can do it (buying), my experience suggests you're better off using Visa/Mastercard without Paypal. If you're caught by a fraud using Visa, visa will reimburse you.

Also, f you're selling via Paypal there is a hefty fee involved. There is also a hefty hidden fee hidden in their currency exchange rates.

Agreed, relatively speaking...but a lot of money nonetheless, especially with the key unknown. Both bought by the same person, too, I believe. I wonder if he/she is among us on c.net?

Daniel

This buyer has been successful in bidding for several "quality" Anglos, which, in my opinion, would have needed a great deal of money spent to restore them to top condition.

I'm not certain of the buyer's identity, so will not speculate. I did, however, look at c.net names, a few weeks ago, without finding a likely match.

Regards,
Peter.

i am fascinated yet appalled at the spectator sport of watching the insanity in the vintage concertina market right now. and insanity it is! firstly, because of the staggering amounts of dosh people are forking out for instruments that aren't even in good repair. and secondly, because of the stratospheric prices reached by instruments which arguably are more or less in condition. people seem heedless of the simple fact that reed instruments peak differently than all-wood instruments such as violins. there is a point of diminishing value. a point at which too many parts are replacement parts. a point at which you are paying 10 & 12 grand for cumbersome century-old action. i am dumbfounded by all of this. the situation has become grotesque. to me, there comes a point, even if it's out of reverse snobbery, at which one's sense of self-respect and musical integrity dictate going for an instrument without that magic name, but with some kind of halfway reasonable value-for-dollar ratio. i would almost like to see players en masse turn to high-quality accordion-reeded instruments, (the good ones are already plenty expensive), and snobs be damned. if it happened, in 5 or 10 years nobody would even remember that concertina reeds were more valued. there is something deeply offensive and counter to the spirit of the music (my patch of ground is irish, but same to morris & other forms) about what is afoot, IMHO.

Unlike some sports, it's cheaper to watch than participate.

Why should it be "deeply offensive ' that someone would pay a lot of money for a top quality instrument, even if it needs some repair.The Jeffries that just sold appeared to have reeds in wonderful condition ......every thing else about the anglo will be easily repairable and it will be a fabulous concertina to play for another hundred years.

Quote.........."people seem heedless of the simple fact that reed instruments peak differently than all-wood instruments such as violins. there is a point of diminishing value. a point at which too many parts are replacement parts. a point at which you are paying 10 & 12 grand for cumbersome century-old action"

Two things.............................first is that after concertina reeds have been played in ( and are used frequently) they do not peak. So buying 100 year old concertina reeds is a good proposition.
.............................second is that you are not paying for an old action. That can be easily replaced with a modern action; you are paying for century old reeds.
With regard to accordion reeded anglos already being "plenty expensive", I doubt the makers are making a lot of money ......
Cheers Robin

Robin,

Don't contradict ceemonster.....his/her point of view that players "should" not pay those prices for great old concertinas, but purchase new, accordion-reeded instruments instead, is actually the best hope that prices for the vintage ones will not go higher!

Ceemonster,

You are absolutely right. The vintage, unrestored concertinas with original, craftsman-made reeds are very poor value now and I agree that the rest of you "should" stop bidding them up. It's contrary to the spirit of "the music." Instead, the dealers "should" buy them, restore them, and sell them to excellent players in Ireland who understand their true value as instruments with the quality of a fine piano or violin, but much more rare. And, ceemonster, if you succeed in discouraging others from bidding on them, Robin or I may have a better chance to pick up the odd one also.

And when you are done with concertinas, could you please get to work on the market for houses. My family would like to own one of them someday.

An aside,

I was very disappointed to read Bill McHale, who was arguing similar points (relative value of traditionally reeded vs. accordion-reeded concertinas) for so long, start to discuss ordering a Suttner. I wish those of you who are championing the new accordion-reeded instruments would just have the courage of your convictions and stick with them, and show us over a committed lifetime of playing all their possibilities for making great music. I'm serious here. That's what the Fender electric guitar players did when the players and makers of more expensive archtop electrics mocked the "plank guitars."

Paul

I'm glad you mention electric guitars. I recently heard a story on public radio about the "vintage" electric guitar market and how collectors (and I suppose some dedicated players) are paying up to $200,000 for the "most desirable" Les Paul and stratocaster. Now isn't that frivilous, a bit obscene and whimsical. It seemed driven by the notion of making THE hot investment.

It all makes current price for good concertinas, which seem to be purchased by passionate playing people mostly, sober and reasonable. I wouldn't say there is a concertina "bubble", there is just an increasing demand and limited supply. But the prices aren't fantastical and disonnected to reality.

Richard

Quality instruments will always demand top dollar in a restricted market.

Even 28 years ago when I bought my first Jeffries, this cost me over 6 weeks take-home pay and involved a heck of a lot of sacrifices ! It was not a decision taken lightly I can tell you.

You have got to be fully committed - if you do not recognise and appreciate the difference in quality or cannot clearly see the life long benefits to you of owning and playing such an instrument, then it is obviously not for you.

There are intermediate vintage concertinas and an increasing range of new instruments available.

The instrument you end up with is as much a measure of your determination to own it as the depth of your pocket.

Don't expect much in the way of support here when you start knocking those folks who are prepared to make big sacrifices for a top quality instrument that will give them a lifetime of joy before being passed on to the next generation.

Obscene ? I reserve that word for someone paying the equivalent of ten Jeffries' for a three ton, 4 wheel drive, 4.9 litre engine, gas guzzling 'Chelsea Tractor' to take the kids to school in .......

Dave

i own more than one accordion reeded box and one so-called "authentic" box, am on the suttner list, and like my accordion-reeded every bit as much as my concertina-reeded instruments. but i am absolutely not championing a movement to seek out fair cost-value alternatives out of any mystical, sentimental or stereotyped idea that people born in ireland are somehow more "worthy" of vintage boxes, though i must say that i have heard the violins on that theme from not one, but more than one.........vintage box dealer (not that discounts are being handed out to the irish, of course!). when it comes to, er, "earning the right" (anybody heard that phrase anywhere before?) to play a certain instrument, that qualification is in the heart of the player, not the judgment of dealers or pedants, and it is not race-based. being born in ireland makes you potentially as shallow, asinine and unappreciative, or potentially as soulful and respectful, of music and instruments, as anybody else. the young irish players are going to mr. suttner in droves, and i hope and predict will soon be smashing the accordion-reed barrier as well....vive la liberation!

the prices of the "authentic" box i own and the box i will eventually buy from suttner are half, perhaps less than half, what one these vintage boxes today goes for. however, both are makes with multi-year wait lists. and that is the point----between grotesquely high prices and four-year-plus waits, the situation needs change.

i have been in county clare & seen local moms who are by no means rich chasing around the countryside after a rumor or a seller in hopes of forking over the price of a family car for uncertified, unguaranteed vintage boxes with who-knows-what inside. nobody, however, maudlin they may wax about repatriating the irish concertinas or some of the other bilge i have heard over the years, is going to be giving discounts on vintage jeffries to the folks in ireland anytime soon. they too are paying through the nose to buy these boxes at ludicrous stratospheric prices, and more often than not, doing so on a handshake, with no vetting, certification or any other assurance as to whether those allegedly incredible 100-year-old reeds are any good or are even original [in point of fact, it remains unproven at best how much more time they are good for at 12 grand a pop, and for a fact, plenty of boxes that started their careers as jeffries now contain lachenal-quality replacement reeds added over the decades, not that many buyers in this market are knowledgeable enough to check before forking out the dosh].

who knows, perhaps it is the irish folks who will soon say "enough" and lead the movement to more realistic price-for-value alternatives. there is expensive, and then there is grotesque, and we have arrived there, imho. there is a poster on one of the irish player forums who says anglo concertina is now off-limits unless you are a rich yuppie or collector. that may be a bit of an exaggeration, but not by much. yes, 10 and 12 grand for folk music instruments, and five-year wait lists for alternatives, offends me. in guitar-land, sure, you can pay 8 grand and a wait for a lavish custom cocobolo box. but a couple of grand will get you a superb instrument with no wait, not to mention the very decent ones to be had for even less. in concertina-land, the answer would seem to be to either develop more easily-made "authentic-sounding" concertina reeds, or get over the culturally arbitrary prejudice against the equally fantastic sound of well-made accordion-reeded boxes. or, hey, why not both??? the time draws nigh, my brother and sister squeezers! up norman! up marcus! up tedrow! up edgley! three more jurgen suttners, five more rob morses, & five more dana kensingtons out there, and our side storms the barricades!!! up with the people's music!! long fly the banner of gerdy commane!!! all hail the people's buttons!!!

I'll have one of whatever he's drinking!

If you want the situation to change, I suggest you try educating people, rather than condemning them. But that means educating the ones who are behaving in what you see as a foolish manner. Most of us here aren't in a position to influence the behavior of mothers in Ireland, even if we felt we should.

What's happening -- at least here on C.net and even in this Topic -- is far more than a spectator sport.

We share information, compare notes and ideas, advise each other, and learn from each other. This information not only helps C.net members, but -- thanks to Google -- can also help inform others unknown to us, hopefully also helping them to avoid foolish mistakes. Our questions and comments on individual auctions also help both buyers and sellers.

Our "spectating" has also been instrumental in stopping numerous scams, both saving others -- often we don't know who -- from losing money to fraud and I suspect also combatting even higher price expectations that could result from other forms of fraudulent manipulation added to those scams if they were not stopped.

Another view of eBay.