Alan day suggested this posting, but as he hasn't done so himself I will do it for him

How many buttons do you require your concertina to have to be able to play your particular genre of music?

I play irish so was only looking for a 30 button. Any more than that I can do without as I have plently of alternatives to work with. I dabbled with a B/C box and the only alternatives on that are B and E so if required the bellows have to do the work. I don't *do* chords anyway, only a bit of octave work and droning so I have what I need. In fact I could get away with quite a few less buttons really.

So, how many do you need?

Sharron .....replies on a postcard to ......

I'm on the verge of ordering an Edgley 24-button which has all the accidentals, and will likely play just about anything my warped mind decides to try.

Ro enjoy myself and to make people sing with me, with 20 buttons I have plenty.
Alos for Irish Tunes, I have frequently enough with the 10 buttons andnless of the G Row, others I need both G and C row.

It is goog to have the 30 buttons, in order to have the repeatzed keyas.

When it comes to chorded Tuneas it may be diofferent. From my actual experioence I would say that 36 or 38 buttons can m,ake it easier.
Regards
Joachim

Helen, why have you chosen the B/C box instead of the more comon C/G ?

Ronnaby, can inform the outlay of the 24 keys ?

Left hand top row left to right:
C3/G10 G10/B14 C15D17 E19/F20 G22/A24 A#25/C#16

Right hand top row left to right:
C#28/D#30 C27/B26 E31/D29 G34/F32 C39/A36 E43/B38

Left hand bottom row left to right:
B14/A12 D17/F#21 G22/A24 B26/C27 D29/E31 F#/G#23

Right hand bottom row left to right:
F#33/C#28 G34/F#33 B38/A36 D41/C39 G46/E43 A37#/G#35

PUSH/PULL

Hi Joachim, i think it was me who said I used to play B/C box. By box I mean it as in melodeon/accordion 2 row button type instrument. B/C is the common tuning for irish music.
However for concertina I use a C/G.

Sharron

For about 15 years I had great fun with 20 buttons, playing mainly Irish and regularly supported by a guitar... so there was no real need for chords on the tina.

Now I play a 30 button and sometimes "some chords" or second melody-lines are used.

Henk

Okay, whenever I have seen notes designated as characters plus numbers, the characters indicate the name of the note, and the number is the name of the octave. The standard has C0 = 16.3516Hz and middle C (261.6256Hz) is designated as C4.

Since G10 (25087.7150Hz) is already higher than most humans can hear, and your highest is G46, I gather that you using the combination of characters and numbers in some other way to designate notes.

Can you please explain how your system works? Where does your system come from?

- Alex

It all depends on what you want to play and how you want to play it.

20 buttons or even 10 on an anglo is enough for some stuff. 30 gives more opportunities even if you're not playing chords. There are lots of Irish tunes with the occasional D#, or in keys like A or Gm. I think it's sad that many sessions effectively deny their existence (though some of them may simply get transposed) to accomodate instruments that don't have all the notes. Is it really so bad that some individuals might occasionally have to *listen*? (Rhetorical question. Don't answer here. If you really want to discuss it, please start a new Topic. Thanks.)

For some kinds of music -- e.g., many klezmer melodies -- no ordinary 20-button instrument will do, no matter which keys it's in.

Beyond 30 buttons, what you mainly get is more notes in both directions, and sometimes in both hands. While perhaps not *necessary*, this can make some passages much easier to play, and opens up opportunities for the player to choose when to reverse the bellows, rather than being forced by the instrument to do so in fixed places. Bellows reversals are like bow reversals on a fiddle, so this allows the concertina player to develop *deliberate* "bowing" patterns if (s)he so desires, just as a fiddler does. You say that's not the "traditional" style? So what? Niall Vallely doesn't restrict himself to playing like Mrs. Crotty, but he has hardly been banished as a heretic from the "traditional" music community. (What I noticed the first time I heard him was his use of chromatic runs.)

If you have buttons you don't use because you don't *need* to, I would still suggest that you try to find out how you *can* use them, and *then* decide whether you want to do so.

My opinion.

Well Jim I definitely reckon I could do without the notes above the high D 3rd button r/hand and probably what is left after the low G on the l/h for the irish music I play. The rest are obsolete for what I play. Accidentals on the other hand do crop up from time to time so I would keep them. I think apart from that I would just like all the notes to have an alternative direction apart from some of the lesser used accidentals, where one direction would be enough.
As a fiddler I can't but help hearing the phrasing of a tune as if I would be playing it on the fiddle.

I think traditional takes into account all forms of playing, no rules applies. All the really great players differ in what and how they play.


Sharron

Could be. But if you use those "extra" buttons there are tunes you could play an octave above "normal". Have you ever considered trying that? "English style" players do it regularly, to place the melody above the chords they're doing in the left hand. But there's no reason you couldn't do it without the chords, and then you'd be playing in the same octave as the whistle, rather than the fiddle and flute.

There are even a few tunes that could be played down an octave. And some traditional players also throw in the occasional "bass" or lower harmony note using the lower buttons, somewhat like the use of the regulators on uilleann pipes.

Up to you whether you want to experiment in that way.

I started with a G/D 20 button, because I wanted to primarily play in G, D, and related keys.

I have since commissioned (and received) a very custom G/D from Bob Tedrow. The D row is an octave below the D in a normal G/D (placing it a fourth below the G rather than a fifth above). The G row is somewhat modified, and the accidental row has each note not in G or D exactly once, and otherwise exists to add additional fingering options for G and D, and to extend the range.

The keyboard layout is:



--Dave

Playing an octave up..........OUCH. I have enough of my ears being bashed with the whistles as it is. Especially those Susato's. They go right through me. I feel deaf after getting caught sitting between 2 whistle players.
Now as for the low octave well that is a different matter. I love the low growly bits. I actually call it *dirty fiddle* playing, on the fiddle that is. Concertina wise i think it will sound just as *dirty* so I might give it a try.
I can just see the faces at the session as they pull faces wondering where the smell that follows the sound is coming from. This time I can say *It's ME*

Sharron

Hallo All,
My discussion with Sharron is this,I do not play Irish music and I could not advise her as to what instrument would be the best for that type of playing a twenty,thirty or forty button anglo.I would have thought, but I did not know that the more buttons the more options.For a really fast run without changing direction alternative directions of playing,changing keys etc.As I have said I do not play Irish music so I suggested this topic.
For the music I play then give me a 38 plus every time,but would you need it for Irish playing ?
For Sharron another facter is wieght,thirty plus and unless it is aluminium reed bases then it would start to get too heavy.
Regards
Alan

Hi,

I play (well I'm learning) a 36 key, and I would not really want any less. In fact if anyone wanted to trade it for a 40 key .......

However I mostly play chords on the left hand, and find that the extra buttons either give me some chords in both directions, or allow me to play the melody in the direction forced by the chord selection.

In particular on the left hand it gives me a D and Dm on the push, an F on the push and a C pull,, so its not just obscure chords I'm talking about.
On the right hand, among others, (talking single notes now) it gives me a top Eb (useful for Gm tunes such as Jump at the Sun), an F push, an F# push and a E pull (which I use LOTS).

As everyone else has said though, it comes down to what music you want to play, and if your absolutely sure that you'll never need a note then why have it. Personally I'd rather have notes I use once in a Blue moon than not be able to play a tune properly for want of a note or a chord. Thats just my opinion though.

Clive.

I am getting a 24 button Edgley which will fit my needs beautifully for Irish music. It will have some oft used notes going in both directions.

However, I have other (used) concertinas that I can use if, as Jim suggests, I might want to have more notes. This gave me the freedom to take on a smaller number of buttons model.

I find my 40 button a little unweildy because I have small hands.

I have been very happy with a used 30 button that I have to play several different kinds of music.

Helen

For me it is not just a case of how many buttons but how many concertinas, as I use different keys for accompanying different songs. I find that I mainly sing in C but there are a significant set, say 30%, that I sing in G, and a couple in Bb.
I also find that I use the drone on about 30-40% of my songs. Perhaps this means that I sing too loud in the first place, to be able to sing over the top of all those reeds.

However to feel comfortable playing tunes I find that I use a subset of my 40 buttons that use some outside of the usual 30 button layout.

Relating this to my G/D box I use a F/G# button on the inner (thumb) end of the G row on the left hand and also the G drone. On the right hand I use a C/D button, mainly on the pull, at the inner (thumb) end of the G row.

When struggling to play in A (?) I sometimes use a C#/G# button on the right hand at the inner (thumb) end of the X row.

As a point of interest I have several friends who are happy playing in A on a G/D box and a smaller set (myself included) who find it easier to play in C on a G/D.

Do others find this a common split between players, happier playing a fifth above rather than a fifth below, or vice versa? This gets more complicated for English players I know, as my wife prefers playing in F and Bb on a standard 48 button treble.

Robin

Robin, I'm with you on the "fifth below" - I much prefer playing in F on my C/G to playing in D...

Well, on a standard C/G you have the low bass F, but not the low D. If you're doing chords, that can make a big difference in the "depth" of the accompaniment/arrangement.

Of course, that's probably not the only factor.

Helen, did you already order your Edgley? If you have, I am envious!!

I'm within a couple weeks of ordering mine..

Yes Rhomylly

And you can play it as much as you like. I had suggested the 24 button to you because I knew it was the kind I wanted. I think of it as yours and mine.

Helen

I like to play chords on my lef hand and melody or other note on my right. I've been doing that with a C/G 30-key Tedrow-Modified Stagi with Wheatstone layout. Right when I was trying to decide whether to invest in an Edgley, a Tedrow or a Herrington, I developed a thirst for more buttons.

So, I recently bought a used G/D 40-key Bastari, but the lowest button on the left side D-row gives G3 on the draw instead of an E3. This G3 is duplicated with the drone key, so now I know that more buttons is not better unless they are the right ones.

From a post a few months ago, Roger Digby told of a Jeffries with 44 buttons, and with the left side thumb button providing notes I would find more useful than the drone. In another current thread, I was introduced to the Jeffries 31-key layout whose right side top row provides note I would find more useful than those extra high ones.

I will need to collect descriptions/diagrams of the different layouts used on Anglos, then invest in a good one with a layout I would find most useful.

Yes, I am also trying to learn the MacCann duet, but Anglos (with the push/pull system and most of the buttons lined up under the fingers) allow you to play more notes while reducing the amount of finger movement needed. (Yes, this is a change of opinion on my part. I have grown wiser since that time I called duet concertinas "superior").

Amen.

I thought somebody had already done that, albeit some time back. Or maybe it was in the rec.music.makers.squeezebox newsgroup. Well, if that someone is here, maybe they could report?

As I've reported before, each 36-or-more anglo I've handled had significant differences from all the others. Collecting all the layouts is going to result in a very large collection, I suspect.

On my own instruments there are some things I like and some that I don't, but it will be a while before I'll feel ready to decide what's "best" for me. And of course, it's not just a question of what notes are available in which direction, but where they lie relative to each other.