Okay....

I put a song in the Tune-O-Tron a while back, 'Saint Patrick Was A Gentleman.'

Today, in my new tunebook at the http://www.thesession.org site, I posted this...but, I see that someone else has this tune posted and they call it a polka.

It's called an 'Air,' in my old book, but....there was no choice for that, so, I called it a reel.

And, the other contributor calls it....E (or something) Dorian mode...I call it E-minor (with accidentals...but, not a mode).

Hmm. I'll probably make them mad at me, over there...which is one reason I won't post a whole lot...

but, now it's got me wondering...if this song isn't an Air, then...what would you call it?

Below is the Concertina.net tunebook link.

[COLOR=purple]http://www.concertina.net/tunes_detail.html?rec_id=295

"...but, now it's got me wondering...if this song isn't an Air, then...what would you call it?"

Response: Probably just the melody to the song. Some jigs etc had lyrics, but I don't believe all songs were written to dance tunes.--Could be wrong?

O'Neill's has it listed as an "air", which basically means that it's the tune to a song. But depending on the style in which you play it, it could serve equally well as a polka or a reel. (And if you change the timing to a "bouncy", dotted rhythm, it could even serve as a hornpipe.) Many tunes can be played for different purposes by just changing the emphasis.Interesting. The version in O'Neill's is in A major, but the two are clearly related. (O'Neill's also gives an alternate name of "The House That Pat Built".)So what? Unless the tune is their own composition -- and maybe even if it is -- they have no police authority over it. And I've seen so many inaccurate transcriptions and attributions on the internet that I no longer trust anything I find on most sites. Yet too many folks hold the internet somewhat above the Bible or the Koran as a divinely perfect source of knowledge.This is a bit like the question, "Does she play 'violin' or 'fiddle'?" The answer is that the two are the same instrument, and the difference is in how it's played (or some would say what kind of music is played on it).

Here's the tune (and details) as submitted by the first contributor, though I see that it's not EXACTLY the same as what I submitted. And, the tune is also called 'The Glen Cottage.' Of course, being an Old Irish Air, I suppose it's had time to pick up several sets of lyrics!

http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/1520

or

http://www.thesession.org/tunes/sheetmusic...lencottage1.gif
~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
And, below are some links for the copy that I submitted.

http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/2116

or

http://www.thesession.org/tunes/sheetmusic...agentleman1.gif


I have a bit of a headache at the moment, but when I can give this more attention, I need to figure out why he calls his version E-dorian.

I know about modes but I don't really consider them much...in my opinion, modes are best for describing 'key' changes on 'just intonation' instruments, but, if one uses the typical 'equal temperament' tuning of modern times, then there's no need to refer to a mode UNLESS you really are showcasing a mode. Of course, I don't play jazz, so....

I guess a jazz player might use them more.

Irish music is fundamentally modal.

--Dave

_Initially_ I thought it was in E dorian because it contains all the tones of the D major scale, but the home note was E. (And yes, E dorian is a type of E minor, but "dorian" is a more specific term than "minor").

Then, after examining the tune more closely, I realized that it doesn't contain any C sharps. So I can see where some would view it as E Aeolian, which you were calling "E minor."

BUT: There aren't any C naturals either!

Really this tune is neither clearly dorian nor aeolian, since it lacks any 6th that would give it a dorian or aeolian quality. Does anyone know the technical term for this kind of mode/scale? I've heard it called "gapped" or "hexatonic" (or "hexatonic minor") but I don't think these are necessarily the best terms to describe this type of tune. (Some people just call this "modal," but I find that unsatisfying and silly, since _all_ tunes are modal! But for some people, "modal" seems to be a sufficient label for anything like E dorian, A mix, etc.)

I can understand where this wouldn't SEEM to make any difference to someone playing a C/G concertina, but it does make a difference to someone who plays melodeon in D, for instance, and it actually would make a difference on the concertina if you were playing accompaniment. When I'm searching for a tune and using "The Session" or "Tune database" etc., I know it's a tune where I "have all the notes" when it's listed as "E dorian," whereas if they had listed it as "E aeolian," I would be missing the C natural. So as far as I'm concerned, my purposes (selfish melodeon player!) are well-served when it's listed as E dorian rather than E aeolian or E minor, although I recognize that none of these designations suits this tune 100%.

If you look at the Breathnach collections, you'll see a lot of tunes like this transcribed with one sharp. This certainly has its logic, since it would be silly to transcribe them with 2 sharps when there is no C sharp to begin with! So in that sense, perhaps the database should list the tune as E aeolian. My (selfish) preference for listing it as E dorian is related to my being "D-instrument-centered" (de-centered?), which makes C natural seem like an accidental to me! (as it would, perhaps, for pipers or keyless flute players, where C# is part of the natural scale on their instruments, whereas C natural is produced by covering a hole halfway or hitting a key.) My guess is that whoever listed that tune on "The Session" as "E dorian" is playing an instrument where the simple scale includes 2 sharps.

I also don't think that the modes are useless for equal-tempered instruments, as you indicate. My D box is equal-tempered, yet there is a definitely difference between E dorian and B aeolian ("B minor"). (I think what you said about just-tuned instruments and modes DOES apply if you were dealing with a chromatic just-tuned instruments, on which there would be a difference between D dorian and E dorian, but that's a different topic...) For SOME players, it does make a difference, and no, it's not jazz-speak, the discussion of modes applies quite nicely to traditional music, at least for those who -- in addition to "just playing tunes"-- also happen to like to communicate about similarities and differences between tunes. I imagine that these modal descriptions/differences are also important to people who play accompaniment instruments, which you may or may not consider to be traditional.
Sorry if I botched anything up here via typos or my "gapped understanding." I'm not a music theory expert but I do insist that there is something "practical" about those seemingly esoteric modal designations...
Andy

I would also call it E-dorian because although it has neither C naturals nor C sharps, the tonality has a lot of E-minor and D-major chords, a feature common to most (all?) Irish E-dorian tunes. I suspect, however, that a strict medievalist would be uncomfortable using the word "dorian" to describe any of those tunes. They use the same notes as a medieval E-dorian tune would, but they use them differently.

As far as I know the essential thing of an air is timing or even better the absence of timing (meaning without any strict rhythm). This makes airs (at least for me) difficult to reproduce by simple hearing. On the other hand, when you master the basics of an air it gives you a lot of space to make your own interpretation. Examples are: TÁIMSE 'IM CHODLADH, LAMENT FOR LIMERICK, THE IRISH BOY, HER MANTLE SO GREEN, etc.

On the other hand the tunes mentioned above are often called slow airs (but I never heard about fast airs!).

Henk

Hi Bellowbelle, (Wendy, right?)

I was never concerned about modes when playing my hammer dulcimer, but my friends playing traditional music on their mountain dulcimers paid close attention. I believe they needed to retune in order to play some different modes. Then again, when you only have 3 or 4 strings, you probably expect to make accommodations.

Helen

Hammered dulcimers are tuned diatonically, and so take care of the modes without your really having to think about them (but they are certainly there).

AFAIK, "Air" just means "song." "Aria" in Italian. To crossword puzzle writers, it's an operatic solo, but to Verdi, it was just a song.

Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

3 : [probably translation of Italian aria] a : TUNE, MELODY b : Elizabethan & Jacobean music : an accompanied song or melody in usually strophic form c : the chief voice part or melody in choral music

On a mountain dulcimer, you play the melody on the top string or pair (that is, the left string if you're looking toward the tuning head). The other two strings are almost always drones. The frets are diatonic so, to play in a given mode, you just pick the appropriate starting point for youir scale.

The constant re-tuning is to get the drones to sound the right notes for the mode you're playing in.

Yup, Wendy it is....

All this info has helped me see the light just a bit better. So, that's good....

And, after some more study, and now knowing that Irish traditional music is usually considered modal, I see why the song in question is E-Dorian.

Anyway, Helen, I was wondering if the hammered dulcimer and the mountain dulcimer are the same instrument? I thought they were...and, then, would that ever be called a zither? I have an album or two of mountain hammered dulcimer.


Jim...(can't grab the quote here, now, I guess, but....) well, hopefully I haven't made them too mad at me, and I know 'it's only the internet,' lol, but...I'm not sure if I should have posted a separate entry for a second version, but...whatever...hopefully the webmaster can deal with whatever mess I've made thus far...hmmm..

As for me and music theory...I'm no expert either, Andy, obviously! I do find it fun, but, when it comes right down to it, if my hands haven't figured out the song, it makes no difference what my head knows about it.

I'll probably always think of modes as kind of just strange little 'extras' floating around in the universe, I guess...they sure can confuse things when I try to determine, by ear, the key of a tune!

Hammered Dulcimer and Mountain Dulcimer are two different (and unrelated) instruments. Here are pictures I've found on the web of people playing each:

Hammered Dulcimer

Mountain Dulcimer

Until the renaissance of the Hammered Dulcimer in the 1970s, I always heard the other one referred to as simply the "Dulcimer." I've never heard of a "mountain hammered dulcimer." Look again at your album covers.

To learn more about either of them, just google them (that's how I found the pictures). There's as much info about them out there as there is about concertinas.

I wrote a reply to this but David beat me to it.
The pictures he links to are worth many words.

To add my $0.02: The mountain (aka lap, fretted, or Appalachian) dulcimer is more similar to a bouzouki or guitar than anything else most people are likely to be familiar with. A few strings, a long fingerboard with frets, and you usually strum it with a pick. Distinguishing features: the body supports the entire length of the fingerboard, the fret pattern is traditionally diatonic, and as you can see from David's picture it's traditionally played flat on the lap, strings up.

The hammer(ed) dulcimer is kind of like a cross between a harp and a xylophone, though with a different arrangement of notes from either. You don't fret the strings (though you might pluck them), there's no fingerboard, you just wail away with a pair of little wooden hammers. The strings are not damped, so the notes run together in a rush of chimey sound.

All that said, both instruments are great for folk music, neither is very difficult to learn, and there are quite a few people who play both; dulcimer clubs and events often feature both instruments.

For what it's worth, I think the term "dulcimer" refers, musicologically, to the family of instruments that includes the hammered dulcimer. Except that in this country, as David says, the HD was in eclipse for decades and the term "dulcimer" just meant MD. They could both be called zithers, I think - "zither" is a rather broad term and perhaps not consistently applied, but it usually means a soundbox with strings on it, but no neck. So that could include instruments that are constructed and played pretty much like either the MD or the HD (not to mention the autoharp and plucked or bowed psalteries). Some (like MD) have a few strings with frets; others (like HD) have no frets but many strings. The "Austrian" or "concert" zither has some fretted and many unfretted strings - a spectacular example can be seen here. I have a lot of respect for people who can play those things, it seems like you would need at least 3 hands. I believe this is the type of instrument famously used in the theme to the film The Third Man.

Hope that helps,
Tom
(who plays mountain dulcimer, but not hammer dulcimer)

Hi Wendy,

Well, everyone answered for me while I was at work. I'm curious about the mountain hammered dulcimer. Perhaps, the cover was trying to say there were both mountain and hammered dulcimers being played. I've played both, but primarily the hammered dulcimer for many years. I've never heard of a mountain hammer dulcimer. But hey, why not.

So, Wendy, are you going to any workshops or festivals? Perhaps next year? I'm dying to meet you and Rhomylly. Well, everyone else too. Samantha and Sharron and Alan and Jim and David and...

Ooops forgot to answer your zither question.

I believe the zither is a different instrument. But it also has strings which are played. Plucked?

Some people have called my hammer dulcimer a zither, but I think it is a misnomer.

Maybe David can find a picture on the internet.

Helen

The first Zither I ever saw looked like an Autoharp without the chording apparatus. Plucked strings across a board that was straight at one end and curved at the other. At one end of the strings were more strings tuned in chords that could be strummed together.

But I've since seen Zithers that looked more like Hammered Dulcimers (some with bridges, some without).

Since I *always* do what Helen tells me to, I went and googled images of "zither" and rather than show you an image or two that it found, I'll give you a link to the google results page, where you can see many images, including all the shapes I have mentioned above.

http://images.google.com/images?q=zither&i...SO-8859-1&hl=en

BTW, thanks, Tom, for your response. That's a new one on me, but I like it.

Okay...I made it around the drum set in my living room, and found the album on a shelf.

The album is called 'American Hammer Dulcimer' -- sorry about my confusion!

It's of 'The Original Dulcimer Players Club,' an album from 1977, Troubadour Music, Inc.

The performers are John Carter, Eugene Cox, Viola Cox, Paul Gifford, Bob Hubbach, Cloise Sinclair, Harley Sinclair, Bob Spinner, Bill Webster.

I've listened to this several times, not recently, and it's a great album.

As far as I know the word dulcimer refers to the Italian word dulce, meaning soft. There is no historic relation between the hammered and the mountain dulcimer. You can read a lot more about it at: http://www.dakotacom.net/~daddario/dulcimerHistory.pdf

Henk

Well, modes don't define music; they're a way of describing music. Some musical examples -- like 12-tone jazz -- don't fit any of the modal classifications/descriptions. Nothing wrong with that.

Hey David,

Glad to know you "always" do what I ask. Hmmmmm, the possibilities...

Wendy,

Look on the album and see what it says about dulcimers. Does it say mountain, hammer dulcimers? Or mountain hammer dulcimers?

Helen (I was signing off here and then added something. When I looked at it afterwards, it looked like I was addressing comments to myself. Oh well.)

Still trying to come up with tasks for David... Suggestions anyone?...Jim...Come on Jim, you ought to be good for this.

I didn't say there was a historic relation. That they are both zithers is a matter of classification after the fact. The history document linked to by Henk looks like quite a good compilation of information - thanks for the reference!

The usual etymology given for "dulcimer" is the combination of Latin and Greek roots "dulce" (sweet) and "melos" (song or music).

It is not clear to me why the American form of the fretted box zither came to be called a dulcimer. A (possibly apocryphal) explanation I have heard is that the severe Protestantism of the settlers frowned on the use of musical instruments... but a Biblical reference to a dulcimer provided a loophole. Henk's history suggests that it is because of the similarity of sound between the hammered dulcimer known in England and the other zithers (scheitholt, hummle, etc) brought by European settlers. Not sure if I buy that, but it's possible (and probably just as likely as the explanation I cite), and anyway I suspect nobody really knows.

I'll try to shut up now, as this is all way off topic. As a devotee of the mountain dulcimer, I find it hard not to go off on a rant sometimes.

regards,
Tom

Not much going on for me, right now. In fact, the one class in about a year that I was recently planning to go to, a one-night cooking class, was cancelled! Lack of interest, they said...hard to believe, since I'd been to the same teacher's class before and she'd had a lot of interested people. Oh well....eat at Taco Bell, I guess, who cares if I can't cook...

hehe, really I can cook alright, it was not an essential class.

As for concertina....

I never made it to the Portsmouth Maritime Festival this year; I had to drive out to something at my daughter's college at the same time, then she was home, and while I really did want to go, I do like to see my daughter, too, and I think she still needs to come home sometimes....

I never made it to the Squeeze-In, though I'd really planned on going, for a combination of reasons.

I may NEVER make it to much of anything....but, anyway, for now, I'm practicing when I can...my parakeets love it!

I'd be quite happy to meet you and the other people that I've 'talked' to here in the forum.

People are still welcome to stop by here at my home, when/if it's ever convenient. With a bit of advanced warning, of course!

Hmm. How often do you hold worship services?

I've never been very good at stringed instruments, so I don't see much point in entering a debate about them. Language, on the other hand...

Mountain dulcimer-like instruments are known throughout the world, but not by the name "dulcimer" even in most of Europe (Finnish "kantele", Norwegian "langelejk",...). Hammered dulcimer-like instruments are similarly widespread and multiply-named (Hungarian "cymbalom", Persian "santur",....) So any debate over rigid application of what are ultimately arbitrary names seems rather silly to me. "Dulcimer" means both, and I've heard (though I don't know for sure) that the Biblical instrument referred to by that name might well have been neither. So if there's any doubt, just use the "full" name of the instrument you're talking about, and don't waste time on debate.

No no Jim. You got off on the wrong tangent. I don't want your help on debating names of stringed instruments. We'll just call all of them George.

David said he "always" does what I ask. I wanted some suggestions of things to ask him to do. I thought you'd excell at nifty jaunts to send him off on.

Hey Wendy,

Is Taco Bell a distant cousin of Bellowbelle?

Money is tight so I won't be going to a lot either. But I would like to go to either the Canadian workshop which would be bodhran, concertina and piano accordion. (For me, other stuff is also available.) Or the N H guy's workshop. I'd like to go to both, but probably unrealistic.

How about Pachelbel?

BTW, if anyone was wondering, I believe the biblical reference to the dulcimer is in the catalogue of Nebuchadnezzar's orchestra. I have no clue as to what instrument actually was being referred to or even what ancient (hebrew? aramaic?) word was translated to "dulcimer."

I was thinking that....Taco Bell, etc...lol...a strange thought. More likely, I'm just a dingaling...

Anyway....what's the 'N H guy's workshop?' New Hampshire? You mean the Portsmouth one?

I know they did that in 2002 but I don't know if it's a regular feature of the Maritime Festival....if that's even what you mean.

Nah I mean Noel Hill's but I couldn't remember his name. Gee I hope that is his name. Anyway the really famous guy whose name slipped my mind.

His workshop.