Hello -

After a few years I am finally taking the intiative to move my old Jeffries to a new owner. The tale is classic: in stroke of fortune an elderly aunt of mine says 'Oh, I have this concertina that's been in the attic, would you like to play it?' And so I took it.
It's a Jeffries (don't know key count right now, I can go count them), pitched in Bb - in an older pitch system (not A440). It is in need of restoration, but the bellows are intact and the tuning is gorgeous (I am a professional violinist and love the unequal temperment).
Can anyone point me to a restorer, or be interested in buying it from me? I'm not in a hurry to get rid of it, but I'm not using it and thought it ought to find a new home. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Peace,
Ben

Ben,

I'm sure many contributors to this site would like to buy your Jeffries, so don't sell it too cheaply. Most would probably want to repitch it to A 440 or even to C/G A 440 as has been done to so many Jeffries Bb/Fs by the major English concertina dealers.

I would like to issue a plea that this instrument (and those few Jeffries and early Crabbs which still turn up, from time to time, in original pitch and tuning) NOT be repitched. I would be happy to pay a handsome price to safeguard this piece of concertina history.

For anyone who wants a Bb/F or C/G in modern pitch, great ones are being made by several modern makers, and excellent antique instruments that have already been retuned often turn up for sale (as the Bb/F early Crabb that was listed at this site for a very reasonable $4400).

Thank you for considering my opinion,

Paul Groff

While I doubt I could afford to pay you what the instrument is worth, the thought of a Jeffries in unequal temperment (regardless of key) is incredible.

What would the fair value of such an instrument (and the estimated cost of restoration) be?

--Dave

Gee, Ben!
Fate has dealt you a hand that several thousand concertina afficianados would die for! Have you considered having someone like Colin Dipper restore it and someone like Paul Groff check and preserve the original tuning and temperment?
And then YOU could learn to play it! It seems like you have the right disposition if you are enjoying the tempered tuning. And these opportunities, at the right price, only rarely occur.

Do consider the option of taking up the instrument. Things can happen for specific reasons.

And please consider Paul Groff's advice about preserving the original tuning. I think he's got a very valid point about the beauty and distictive sound of these tunings and temperments. After the current phase and craze of group session playing has passed, the surviving unretuned instruments may be the most valuable and treasured of all! (I think Paul said that; but he didn't tell me to repeat it!)

Of course if the instrument annoys you, or you would like to find it a good home please put my name at the top of your list for potential buyers! Best of luck, Greg

(Actually, I'm the one that thinks the emphasis on session playing and the perceived need of having every concertina in C/G A=440 will tone down (no pun intended JL). I think Paul Groff is the one who sees the potential in instruments that haven't been noteably changed. (Pun intended))

Ben,

Congrats on your wonderful instrument. I'm glad you asked for advice and what a truly gifted group was able to answer you. (I'm certainly not including myself. I can only cheer on you and the others who responded.)

It would be my hope that you took up the instrument and loved it. And enjoyed its history and the story of how it came to be in your family. Do you know that story? If so, would you post it, if you are comfortable doing so?

Gee, other people find instruments in elderly relatives' attics. I'm not mentioning what we find. Not instruments.

Of course, Ben, if you choose not to play, that would be okay too. You seem to have some people who would cherish your instrument if that was your decision.

Helen

Edited to add an apostrophe.

Greg J. wrote



Years ago, in a private email to someone who had found an odd pitch Jeffries, I made this same argument. [I got a mixed reception] I said I thought Paul Groff would agree (though we have never met) and am gratified to learn I was correct. Yes, some day there will be enough makers of great C/G boxes to meet the session demand (look at the guitar market in the 1950s vs. now - a new golden age. Easier now to buy a new Santa Cruz guitar than a 1928 Martin D-28), and you'll be blessed if you helped keep a few original concertinas around.

And frankly, it would be easier to learn to play it than deal with the piranha feeding frenzy that erupts when you offer to sell an instrument like this!

It is possible, of course, that the present trend of retuning to A=440 will be reversed if the original pitch instruments become more valuable.

Certainly Paul if you wanted to play solo you would not get droned out by a melodion.
Getting back to the subject I tried to answer this when I first saw it and I could not put into words my thoughts.Ben you just cannot realise how lucky you are and to sell it on I can understand ,but years to come I am sure you will regret parting with this wonderful instrument and from a family member .Please give this some serious thought.I agree with the suggestion of getting it renovated and then think again.
Regards
Alan

I too, owned an odd keyed Jeffries 38 which I sold to Paul Groff as he was the only buyer with sense enough to retain its originality. I have never regretted the decision.

FYI the First Martin D-28 was not made in 1928

It was one of four Dreadnoughts made in 1931 and designated D-2 not D-28
The D-1 was mahogany

In 1932 the designations were changed to D-18 for the mahogany and D-28 for the Rosewood

JJH

Not really a reply to the original posting, more a response to some of the subsequent discussion. Here goes:

While I can understand peoples interest in maintaining original pitch and tuning to preserve an instrument in an original condition, I have to say that this is not one sided argument.

Keeping and instrument in original pitch/tuning does have distinct disadvantages as well, in that you will not be able to play with any (effectively) fixed tuning instruments (eg piano, woodwind, other squeezeboxes), and you will not be able to play with with fretted instruments (Since they are equal temperament).

If you want to play on your own then fine, but if you want to play with anyone else, even one other person (ie not only session playing), then you will need to consider this.

Most people believe that these instruments should be played, but I am probably in the miniority here in believing that if it needs to be retuned to allow it to be played more often then so be it. After all if an instrument is kept in a display case as a historically interesting specimen, then it doesn't really matter what trhe tuning is does it, as no one will hear it?

Yes you can buy brand new instruments of excellent quality in A=440 pitch, do you want to wait 5 years for it?


Perhaps I should have started a new topic for this?

I shall now sit back and await the deluge e-mials from the outraged folks out there.

Clive.

Clive,

I for one am not at all outraged by your comments. You do present one valuable side of the argument. We need to have some -- make that MANY -- concert pitch (oops, A = 440) concertinas so we can meet at a common denominator for group playing - sometimes. But the point I am making (and I believe has been seconded by Greg, Ken, Jeff et al.) is one of balance.

So few Jeffries (and other anglos originally tuned in nonstandard temperaments) have been retained in their original state that many or most of you have never heard one. They are really like an endangered species deserving of preservation -- at least until they can be studied. The reflexive conversion of almost all of these to modern tuning as they have been restored has left us with a substantial number of repitched Jeffries (etc.) that do come up for resale if you want one. And each year, brilliant new instruments are made by an increasing number of fine makers, who are getting better all the time. Almost all of these instruments are and will be in modern pitch and temperament. Even if a Jeffries is restored to its original temperament (and how many know how to do so?) so its original sound can be enjoyed and studied, this does not preclude its later being modernized. But when the original reedwork is "written over" without its unique information being recorded, something special has been lost. If you do not value what has been lost, fair enough -- but I might, and posterity might.

I am sorry if this is another of my frequent misquotations, but I think Kafka wrote "impatience is the only sin, because every other sin derives from it."

Ever the devil's advocate, Jim Lucas made the point elsewhere that the current fetish for originality among those who study/curate/conserve antiques and historical artifacts may be a temporary fad of our current phase of history! I think he may be right! But if preservation is an error, this is a much easier error to recover from if we become wiser in the future than the alternative errors of destruction, extinction, obliteration of the evidence of the past.

By the way, Jeffries, Jones, early Crabb and Lachenal anglos in their original tuning sound wonderful when played with one another or with voices. A skilled and sympathetic duet partner who plays Irish fiddle often plays with me, and flutes and Irish pipes also go well. Try playing your equal tempered concertina with the pipes someday and listen closely to the result! Many of the best old system wooden flutes ever made (in London, of course) play at their best between A 446 and 452, just where the contemporaneous London concertinas were originally pitched. Bottom line -- my original tuning instruments get played a lot, and not just at home. If you have friends who play Baroque or Classical music, or any of many kinds of traditional music, you will find that the most advanced musicians are the most interested in playing in non-equal temperament where appropriate.

So yes, thank heavens there are repitched old concertinas and new concertinas in modern pitch. They are very useful and very important. But now may be an excellent time to pull back on the reins and take stock of the historical information available in the few original ones. This is my current project. I can't afford to buy and keep all of them, and I think this would be unethical and selfish anyway. Instead, I try to operate like our Nature Conservancy (in the US - are they in England?); I try to get control of the original ones to prevent the destruction of their originality, then I try to find new homes for them with players who will appreciate their unique value. Some of them, I'm sure, will subsequently be retuned, but I will have learned all I'm able from them first.

My first priority (and I suspect yours) is to encourage and promote the playing of these instruments. Actually I think dedicated concertina players are the most precious and valuable resource of all, and far rarer still than fine concertinas.

With greatest respect and best wishes,

Paul Groff

Oh I know, I was just making up an analogy. (Never ever make a fictional allegory on line, someone always points it out.) Folks who were around then tell me that in the 1950s and early 1960s everyone was nuts to find a classic old Martin or other classic flat top. Prices skyrocketed. (Sound familiar?). This eventually brought a lot of new makers out of the woodwork. I am floored by the excellent sound of fine new guitars my friends have (Martin, Santa Cruz, Taylor, Collings), friends who could never consider buying the old now-heirloom Pre-WWII instruments. While the guitar market is admittedly a hundred times bigger than the concertina market and guitars may be simpler to build, I still think we can look forward to this situation too, if we live long enough.

I guess my perspective on repitching is colored by the reality that even after six years of study, no one is interested in playing with me. The sole exceptions are the folk society and the Irish session I go to, and in those large gatherings I need to play loud enough to hear myself and subtleties of tone are lost, at least to me. I use my Morse for that. I have a funny-pitch/funny-key Lachenal concertina I play at home or for my rare public solo work. This arrangement works for me. Your mileage may (or does) vary.

Poor Bem!
He must be shaking his head thinking, "It's only a concertina!" And who are these crazy, passionate people with nothing better to do than rhapsodise over a dusty squeeze box that my aunt found in the attic and gave to me?

And that's just the point!

These little boxes are lightning rods for passion. I love it!

Clive, I've had an anglo all of three months (although I've been a musician for 30 years). Sitting in at sessions (with a concertina) is still a defered dream. I'm not well off by any means, but I had a some extra money and a Jeffries came along and I jumped. It is in C/G but old (high) pitch. I sought Paul Groff's advice and he pleaded for me not to retune it. I was feeling sorry for myself, thinking "I'm gonna need a hot A=440 session instrument when I finally get this push/pull thing sorted out." I did manage to restrain myself, got to meet Paul and listened to him play several tempered, quality instruments. What a revelation! Like being in a cathedral! (Or going to Wrigley Field!)

I've found another less prestgious A=440 C/G that will serve me well as I dutifully practice for session work. The Jeffries? We are going to church!!

After years of retuning and fine tuning my banjo to make the modal songs "sound
right" I've finally realized its really a matter of "temperment".

I hope the sessions are hot and heavy and good times are had by all! But I hope more and more people take time to hear the "tempered muse". She has a siren's voice and it's beautiful! Respects to all. Keep the passion! Greg

PS. Thank you, Paul!

I guess it's all a matter of taste, or what you get used to, but I can see no logic to the opinion that somehow A-446 or A-452 is inherently superior in sound to A-440. True, an instrument retuned from one of the old piches to A-440 does remove metal from the reed, and this can be very detrimental if done by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. It can also be done by weighting the tips of the reeds with solder,using a razor blade and heat sink to preserve the temper. You'd be amazed how little is needed to lower the pitch a half tone. I'm not recommending anything, or offering my services. I have no desire to take on the job.
As far as retuning is concerned, an instrument that old is probably out of tune and will have to be touched up anyway. I realise that this is a comparatively small matter.
As far as the sound of an instrument is concerned, I personally find the old pitch disconcerting, accustomed as I am to the sound of A-440 pitched instruments. There is nothing "magic" about any pitch, nor did the Victorians have the technology to make reeds designed to get the optimal tone colour at a particular vibration frequency. It was part science, part guesswork, and part trial and error. Some makers more successful than others. I guess the point I am trying to make is that, apart from ruining a reed by overfiling, I can see no reason why a concertina should sound superior in one pitch over another.
I know that now there will be numerous contributions from members telling me how wrong I am, and all that sort of thing. All I can say is, "Of course you must be right. How wrong I was! What could I have been thinking?" Or just maybe there is room for other opinions???

I think the point is that this instrument is not in equal temperament, regardless of where the A is. Even if it were 440, the relationships between the notes (pure or more nearly pure intervals in the common keys) make the sound more desireable than that of modern instruments tuned to equal temperament where all intervals are slightly impure and every key sounds the same as every other key.

Greg,

My point is that what ever tuning you want is fine, until you want to play along with someone else, but when that point comes a non A=440, non equal temperment will start to limit who you play with (and I don't only mean in sessions).

If you've only just started playing anglo then that point might be some time off, but when it comes you may find that you also start wishing you could play your Jeffries with other people rather than the 'Less prestigous' one.

Also, if you are new to the concertina then hearing a really good player in the same room might sound like being in a cathedral what ever the temperament of the instrument. I'm not new to the concertina, (though I don't consider myself anything like a good player) and hearing someone like John Kirkpatrick play still fills me with wonder, and as far as I know his instrument is Equal temperament.


Reference your comment on the Banjo, Surely playing around with tuning and bridge position etc can't make a fretted instrument into a natural temperament instrument, as that is dependent on the fret positioning as well ?.

I should point out that I have never knowingly heard a natural temperament concertina being played, so maybe I have a 'road to Damascus' experience to look forward to.


Clive.

Frank,

You seem upset. I hope you know in what high regard your work in repairing and building instruments is held all over North America.

I will always value your opinion, but neither should your preferred standard of A 440 equal temperament become a universal one to which we must all conform! In this day and age, I thought *I* was being the pluralist in advocating that SOME concertinas that retain a different pitch and temperament be allowed to continue to sound THEIR differing "voices."

The mass consumer culture that assaults us, from fast food to detergent to stereo gear (I know, the term is quaint now) tries to make every consumer want the same thing, that can be ever more cheaply made and sold. For me, the world of traditional music and concertinas in particular is an essential assertion of the value of history, of individuals (many humble and whose contributions were never credited to them), of uniqueness. Some modern standards, like traffic laws, make our lives easier and safer. But I see the modern standard of A 440 as a Procrustean bed that has resulted in the permanent alteration of many uniquely individual, handcrafted, beautiful antique musical instruments. Again (how often must I repeat this?) if you don't value the originality of original reedwork, you are free to go your own way. Future history will decide (and then re-decide!).

Possibly I am partly to blame, because I have known about this problem for many years and have only started writing about it. It took me years to gain some confidence that I was on the right track. And I would like to be able to publish my results someday -- more difficult if they have already become common knowledge. I don't have a position in a museum or university that supports me while I do this research.

But now I am writing. I appreciate those who are sympathetic to this viewpoint, and also those like Clive and Frank who will improve my understanding by challenging me. Bear in mind, as Frank wrote many years ago, that in working on concertinas one should try not to do anything that can't be reversed. It is my contention that if you erase the evidence of original temperament without understanding it, you have done something unfortunate if not irreversible.

Paul


(eidted for spelling)

"You seem upset. I hope you know in what high regard your work in repairing and building instruments is held all over North America."

Reply: Sorry, Paul. I'm not upset, certainly not with your opinion . My closing was in anticipation of the expected responses. I guess I'm still sensitive about the last thread I participated in, where my suggestions were disected and the implications given that I was wrong in so many of them (11 in one post). I guess that in giving opposing opinions, you are always at risk of that, by implication. However, I think it is possible to disagree without stating, or implying that the other party doesn't know what they're talking about. For example, I find old pitch unpleasant to my ear. Not because it really is unpleasant, but because my ear has become accustomed to A-440. Nevertheless, I still believe, IMHO, that there is nothing inherently superior about any pitch. To my way of thinking, it's all a matter of personal taste, in a similar way that some purists believe that early music sounds better on stringed instruments made in that period. Different, certainly. Better?

Clive and all.
I'll probably regret that religious reference to "being in a cathedral". But I was looking for a spiritual metaphor.

I'm not up to entering a "holy war" of polarized opinions. I'm just a little, young concertina player making his way in a world of wonder and discovery. Just wanted to share some observations that I thought were interesting and wonderful. You guys can crusade and fight; I should be practicing.

As far as old time banjo, I've put in my 35 years. It took me ten years to realize that in changing keys (which in old time banjo involves retuning) that certain notes, while true to the electronic tuner no longer sounded so sweet to me. Their relationship with the tonic had changed. Now I can anticipate what notes will probably have to be sweetened.

Yes, a fretted banjo has equally tempered notes (compromises in the fret placement). Sometimes I find myself attacking notes at a different finger angle or actively "bending a string" to satisfy that sweet sound.

Paul's, and Dave's comments and others contributions in previous threads on tunings and temperments struck a chord with me. It helped explain some of the inconsistant sounds I'd heard on the banjo and guitar for years.

Hey, it's all in the eye, or ear of the beholder.

I'm headed for the roof. This forum is getting over my head, anyway. I've got three different hammers to nail shingles. Each is different. Each has a different feel. All three are capable of getting the job done. Is one inherently "better" than another? Probably not. I have my favorite, for different reasons. Sometimes my needs change. Here's to roofs with no leaks and concertinas with no squeaks.
Greg

Greg,

Not so much polarised opinions as a range of opinions. Most people in these forums appreciate that their own opinion is only one of many, and appreciate listening other peoples views. After all, if everyone agreed on everything (or irretreivably disagreed) and every apsect of concertinas was understood by everyone, then there would be little point in having a discussion forum at all! You may be a relative beginner on concertina but your opinion is still valid and valuable (especially in veiw of your 35 years as a musician) so don't be put off expressing it.


My original response to this tread was not meant to imply that Ben must get his instrument retuned to standard pitch, but to point out that there were disadvantages to non standard tuning as well as advantages.

Fortunatley there are enough concertinas around for everyone to follow their own ideas on tunings, which is good. At the moment an equally tempered instrument is the right solution for me, and naturally tempered instrument is right for Paul. 'Vive la difference'.


Clive

Clive, Frank, and all,

I hope I am not belaboring an issue, but for the record I want to clarify a couple of points on which I have been misread here. First let me say I appreciate the civil tone of this discussion, despite our differing views. Like Frank I anticipated there might be some who would try to shout me down (in my case, because my opinion expressed early in this topic runs counter to practices that have long been accepted by many in the concertina trade). I would hope we could all meet over a pint and have this kind of argument, where all can be heard and even if no minds are changed at least we can be even more sure we share a common passion for the concertina -- making us rare kindred spirits in this world.

Frank, were you responding to me when you argued that (despite your acquired preference for A 440) no pitch should inherently be "better?" For the record, my only claim about a PITCH sounding better was in relation to antique old system flutes; those made to play in A 446-452 really do sound better in that range of pitches, since for constructional reasons it is very difficult to repitch them without losing response, tone, internal intonation. I entered these flutes into evidence to rebut Clive's argument that an old pitch concertina must be played solo. In fact many wonderful instruments are already in odd pitches waiting for mating odd pitch concertinas to play with them! Seamus Ennis played for much (most?) of his life on a wonderful sounding set of Irish pipes pitched in splendid unequal temperament around halfway between our modern C and C#. Of course he played these mostly solo (though a fiddle could easily tune to him), but it just so happens that a Jeffries or Lachenal Bb/F in A 452 would be right exactly there. When it comes to these fine old flutes, pipes, etc., it is the modern pitch concertinas that could not play along.

As Dave pointed out, it is the issue of temperament (and the general principal of retaining originality so that we can understand and learn from the past) much more than the issue of pitch per se that interests me. As I have pointed out in the "Linota" topic, pitch can be *one* indicator of original reedwork. However, as Frank agrees, hasty, budget-oriented, or unskilled repitching can also harm the tone and response of reeds leaving them much less useful and sonorous than the original old-pitch reedwork was. With the finest professional-grade concertinas, I have never observed that an instrument repitched in modern times has a better tone than in the old pitch, and the reverse is often true. I know Alistair Anderson is reported to have played on an old-pitch english concertina for many years, fearing that repitching would hurt its superlative tone. I don't know if he still holds this view, but I am sure he has a keener sense of great tone and great responsiveness than most of us.

Clive, I have never actually claimed that I prefer old-pitch or even unequal temperament concertinas per se. I have a background in piano and guitar and am well aware of the many situations in which equal temperament is best. Before moving from Boston, I hosted many sessions where all sorts of instruments played together, and modern standard pitch (or something very close to it) is very helpful in this environment. On the other hand, as Greg and Ken emphasize, a solo instrument, a duet, or a small ensemble can produce wonderful music also, and here the unequal temperament of some original anglos can really shine. My argument is in favor of an appreciation of originality (which allows us to benefit from the lost knowledge of the past), of a diversity of temperaments for different purposes, and an open mind that allows us to entertain unfamiliar ideas. I know what equal temperament sounds like, and what it can do. But how many of you know what Jeffries wanted his concertinas to sound like when he made them? I hope that many of you will be interested to know (and hear) this, even if you don't choose to tune your instruments this way. But I need the help of all who come across an original instrument. I need your patience not to immediately forge it into the kind of instrument you already understand. I need you to listen attentively to what may be there that you don't already know. There will be time enough to modernize its tuning if you decide it is more valuable to you in that form.

Paul

PAUL:"Frank, were you responding to me when you argued that (despite your acquired preference for A 440) no pitch should inherently be "better?" For the record, my only claim about a PITCH sounding better was in relation to antique old system flutes; those made to play in A 446-452 really do sound better in that range of pitches, since for constructional reasons it is very difficult to repitch them without losing response, tone, internal intonation."

FRANK: I totally agree with you in the case of pipes and flutes. With pipes, the instrument was made to play in a certain limited range of pitch. It is very complex, the way the internal bore of the instrument has been tapered (in some cases with multiple degrees of taper within one chanter), and the reed constructed to match it. It becomes more difficult for a chanter made to sound balanced (in pitch from top to bottom) to be flattened or sharpened significantly without altering the balance from top to bottom. This is largely because of the tapering of the bore. All of the notes on pipes (and flutes) are interrelated because they all are made by the same reed and are subject to the design of the one bore through which all the notes are made. Therefore, what you do with the pitch (i.e. raise or lower) affects each note to a greater or lesser (varying) degree. In this case, there is a very narrow range of pitches (only a few cents) which can be used for the instrument to be in a balanced state.

Paul,

My apologies if I mis-interpretted your your views, and consequently mis-represented them.

If I ever end up with a natural temperament instrument you'll be welcome to any information I can give you.

Clive.