At the NE Squeeze-In, Rich Morse and I had a short discussion on the advisability of a "break-in" period for new instruments. With Rich's consent, I'm going to recap here what we discussed and invite others to join in the discussion.

Our discussion began when I remarked to Rich that a particular used instrument being offered for sale -- a button accordion from a top maker -- was mildly disappointing to me (I emphasize "mildly"). It was just my impression, of course, but I thought the reeds didn't speak as quickly or crisply as other boxes from that maker. And when I played that box, an accordion professional who was present (not Rich) said it lacked the volume he expected, though I hadn't noticed that.

Rich responded that perhaps the box had not gone through a proper break-in period. He said that Steve Dickinson had convinced him many years ago that new reeds should be played gently for a period of months -- at varying volume levels, but never excessively loud -- in order to ensure the best long-run tone. He cited his own Dickinson Wheatstone Hayden as a box that disappointed him when brand-new but got better and better through gentle playing over a few months.

Rich contrasted this happy result with several cases where Morris musicians who bought new instruments from his shop played them really hard right away, and within a few months complained that their boxes were unresponsive.

As one expecting to take delivery of a new concertina in a month or so, I'm very interested in this issue! Though I've played free-reeds for almost 20 years, I'd never before heard this advice. A few other players of button accordions with whom I've discussed this also said it's news to them ... and they're skeptical.

So ... here are some questions on my mind. I hope others will post their thoughts on these and related issues:

• Is a break-in period the smart thing to do, or a waste of time?
• Do you have personal experience with a box that wasn't broken in properly?
• If you advocate a break-in period, how long should it go on, and what should you do (or avoid doing) during it? Is there a way to know when it's OK to play "hard"?
• Is a break-in period done for the benefit of the reeds, for other mechanical parts (valves, pads, etc.), or all of the above?
• Does this apply equally to concertinas with traditional reeds and those with accordion reeds?

That's not all, but I'll stop there!

I think my intuition says agree. It does seem logical that the steel reeds would change initialy upon being played. There have been conversations in the past the opined that the changes were more due to the player "warming" to the instrument or simply improving, or the bellows breaking in, but yes I think a break in period makes sense. About a year ago I bought a EC from the twenties that hadn't been much played when new and had sit unused for at least 2 generations, it was as though I was breaking it in, 'cause I was the first person to play it continualy after its overhaul, which did not include "extensive" tuning, the reeds are pristine untuned and unplayed since it left the factory 80 yars ago. It does speak faster and with lower bellows pressure than it did when "new".
Now for a demonstration of excessive Smilie use.... AlW

I have just had my Morse C/G Anglo for 2 weeks, so as a newbie to the concertina this information would be really useful as it never occurred to me that it would need any special treatment because of it being new.
This maybe not the place to introduce myself but as I am here now I may as well
My instrument really is the fiddle, but after being told that I could not take it on the plane with me to Dublin (airport rules- no stringed instruments) and I wouldn't put it in the hold, I needed to find another instrument to play so I could carry it with me and attend a session ''hopefully'' in the future.
So along comes the concertina and I am happily squeezing away with the 'mad for trad' cd rom. Plus all my fiddle tunes just have to try themselves out too, so my poor fiddle is taking a back seat at the moment while my new toy is flavour of the month.
And so back to the discussion ''am I doing irreparable damage by playing it too much too soon?'

Does this mean I am a lurker no longer too?

Sharron

Welcome Sharron.

Well, I'm not equipped to answer your question, but I can officiate as a welcome greeter. I hope you keep posting. I was drawn to the concertina also, partly (certainly not wholly or firstly, but partly) because of its portability. Now I love it for itself. I've a lot of fiddle music that I used for my hammer dulcimer and it sounds great on the concertina.

Bellow on,

Perhaps softly at first if there is a break in period,

Since I came home yesterday to my back window screen pried off, I'm a little sensitive to the term break in, perhaps I'll call it the be kind to your reeds period,

Helen

Sharron, I think RM was saying that playing Hard and loud would possiblybe a problem. Nothing was said about playing a lot. I would think that lots of playing would be fine if it wasn't outdoors type loud etc. More Smilies, enjoy AW

I am not convinced about this gentle playing in of new reeds.

Technically, I can see a possible logic for brass (tongued) reeds, and for new tongues made from old steel. However, for tongues made from modern fine grained alloy steels???

I certainly believe that all reeds do settle and find natural positions with play, but this is more about their gapping and set. My view is to play, play and play again, any music that you want as long as no one throws anything at you.

I also believe that new instruments settle and improve with play anyway, action bellows, pad seals and all the rest, so lets not get too hung up on this point. Is more imprtant to store the instrument properly, in its dedicated box, bellows firmly together.

Dave

This thing about storing concertinas in their boxes has me a little worried.
I have a cabinet which I keep my instruments so that I can just reach in and take one out to play without having to mess around with cases, etc. I feel that the amount of times I would have to keep getting cases/boxes out I would probably do more damage than just leaving them in my cabinet.

Now I do notice that the concertina opens slightly when left out as opposed to tightly closed when in the box, but as the box is such a tight fit I thought it too much of a struggle to get it in and out the dozen or so times every day.

I know it is slightly off topic but please tell me it's ok or else my playing time will go downhill if I have to keep putting it away and getting it out this many times.
Or a really good reason please.

Sharron

Sharron

please do not fret!

The bellows do need to be stored compressed, not super-tightly, but firmly together otherwise they tend to want to spring open, this means that in play you get resistance when playing towards the closed position, in effect you get some 'loss of function'. It may only be minor but its there. I would suggest that you consider that "storage" = overnight, or away at weekends etc. The case is designed to hold the bellows with an appropriate degree of compression, the case is almost part of the instrument. The prolonged use of the alternative loose and soft 'gig bags' can have the same problem, always return to the case. I have seen people use modern replacement hard cases, vanity boxes etc, that's fine as long as they are adapted to hold the bellows correctly.

I know its a Morse that you have, and so new. This means that the initial bellows 'training' is important. Eventually getting the instrument in and out of the case will become easier. hold the instument compressed as you ease it in or out of its box. Also, periodically, give the bellows a good stretch.

You will notice the case also locates the concertina with its axis horizontal, this is also good practise; paricularly on the so called 'vintage' instruments, as the valves can suffer if its stored on its end.

I know its inconvenient, but its for the best in the long run, sorry.

Dave

"Gentle", soft, or slow breaking-in playing isn't my position. From my experiences, only sustained for frequent "hard" playing during the first few months of a reed's life seems to result in poor subsequent performance. I advocate playing boxes often and with varying stress - but without exceeding maybe 85 or 90% for an appreciable length of time during an initial period.

There seem to be at least two issues here. One - being some sort of stress setting thing where the steel (brass, whatever the reed is made of) finds an equilibrium of strength, and second - where the reed "comes into" it's sound or tone.

I've seen many cases where spring steel fails when overstressed (past its elastic limit), and am not particularly surprised to find that those occurrences usually happen when the item is new. A similar item that has been properly "worn in" can be stressed to a higher degree (without failure) than it can be when new. I've heard folks refer to "stress hardening" and "alignment of the molecules", initial "wild steel grain".... I'm no metallurgist or machinist. Just an observer with enough experience to say that some stress/time thing is going on here.

Well, maybe a bit more than that. I've had 4 years of structural statics (including steelworking properties and propensities). I've also heard that the best reeds are fabricated with the grain of the metal along their axes (and if this is true, why would the best reedmakers bother if there was no difference?)

The "tone" thing may also have to do with a reed's "settling in", though I think there's a lot more than that as Dave points out. Many instruments sound better after playing in - fiddles, guitars, flutes.... And they have no reeds. Some hardly have any metal parts at all. Also interesting is that an instrument that has not been used in many years can sound pretty poor, and after being played in again will come "back into tone".

Actually, thinking further into what I just posted is -- So how can overstressing be verified? Is there some sort of testing that can occur where the only difference between two boxes is the way it is played?

The answer is yes, such "testing" has been done. We've sold scores (maybe a few hundred?) Hohner 2815 (and it's almost identical sibling the Erica) button accordions - and have serviced many of those same accordions. Identical boxes show pronounced differences in reed response. The preponderance of slow-acting, muffly-sounding, and tough-to-play boxes started out their life in the hands of a Morris player.

Now I'm not slamming Morris players (been there myself!), but playing for Morris seems to be a constant full-throttle endeavor. Certainly this needs to be when playing out (or even at practice). But if a new box were eased into its life - it will give much better performance thereafter.

another question about bellows "storage"

I have a new Hohner and a soft bag for it. However, Hohners have those nice close straps which snap in place and keep the bellows nice and closed when the instrument is not in use. I'm so anal about those close straps I use them even when I put the concertina down during practice to pick up a different piece of music!

So if the close straps are used religiously, will it cause long-term harm for the instrument to be kept in a soft bag? Oh, I also snug the drawstring pretty firmly, and also store it on its side, not the end.

I have no straps but have made one yesterday out of a soft suede like foam (to protect the finish) on the back of sticky backed velcro so that I can keep the bellows closed, so I too hope this is ok as it is just as tightly closed as if it were in the box. I thought it might work for me as it is so easy to put on and off, it just goes around the instrument in front of the handles and before any buttons.

Could someone also speculate how many hours of average playing it takes for the bellows to be *trained* ( had to laugh at that one as I clicker train my dogs and wondered if I could clicker my bellows) and how long before an instrument is at it's *best*.

I know the answer is probably 'as long as a piece of string', but is it 6 months/1 year/2 years? It's just that I have a Salterelle Nuage B/C box that has been played for about 2 years solidly every day for about an hour minimum a day and it still feels *new* and needs breaking in.

I feel like I need to know, but don't know what I need to know in order to ask questions that I need to know

Thanks again for the help and welcome.

Sharron, happily squeezing away.

The answer has more to do with the way the bellows is constructed and less with how frequently it is exercised.

There are many ways to make bellows though they generally fall into two categories: continuous-carded and individual-carded bellows. Either way can be made with shallow or deeper bellows folds, reinforced bellows corners, and varying degrees of quality materials and craftsmanship.

CC bellows are inherently stiffer and will take more time to break in than IC bellows. Bellows-cornered construction tends to keep the bellows closed at rest and non-cornered (that is - NOT having metal corner clips) tend to rest somewhat extended. Deeper folds make the bellows more flexible. Lots of permutations here.

CC bellows with shallow folds and bellows corners (typical accordion bellows) may be "trained" to loose their fabrication "memory" by exercising (playing) them often and keeping them open (I've heard of people hanging them by their bass handstrap) when at rest. Maybe two or three months of "breaking in".

CC bellows with deeper folds and no metal bellows corners (typical mass-produced concertinas like Stagi, and some of the current crop of hybrid concertinas), while more supple than typical accordion bellows will still have an appreciable amount of fabrication memory which may be relaxed by playing them often and storing them in the closed position. Within a month or two there will be a very appreciable difference in suppleness.

IC bellows usually have considerably deeper folds with much more attention to design, craftsmanship and high quality materials - and are correspondingly more expensive.... This type of bellows is associated only with concertinas (well, and flutinas too). They also are by far more durable and flexible (than typical CC bellows) - and have very little fabrication memory even when brand new. Just a week of playing these in will dissipate any fabrication memory with no special need of storage.

This is just a broad outline as there are so many permutations and combinations of bellows design, materials, and craftsmanship which will determine just how supple, durable, controllable, expressive, costly, etc. a bellows will be.

Maybe it's time to start a new topic on "Bellows Construction"?

Hi Rich,

I think we are on the wrong forum here, but:

Breaking in reeds:

Grain flow would normaly be along the reed length, unless they are sheared off a wider coil. Originally, I believe, clock spring steel was used. I have talked aobout vibration stress relieve before, I think that this process actually shakes the reed into a natural position making adjustments to the at rest position and yeilding improved gap and sounding, but proving it is a different issue. I cannot see how a reed springing in an air stream can get beyond its elastic limit. I can see fatigue failure and micro-cracking issues in old reeds, abused reeds (ground, badly filed etc.) and corroded reeds. Brass both work hardens and to some extent 'age' hardens. Whilst what you advise can do no harm, I cannot see a convincing technical argument. After all we are talking about metallurical condition and grain structure, generally these need plastic deformation, or heat to change them. High frequency vibration permits minute inter-chrystaline slipage to reduce stress.

Bellows & storage

As to belows construction and breaking in, I simply draw on advice from Steve Dickinson, and my own experience, even old bellows, if left uncompressed for either a long period of time take an 'at rest' position which is slightly open. It is advisable to store with the bellows closed to prevent this, again I emphasis even old concertinas with original bellows. I don't believe you can particularly time-date this sort of thing. New bellows do have this memory effect. As you say, influenced by construction details, materials, I suppose even adhesive used. I have some new on my daughter's instrument, stored closed they are fine, left out of the box, even now they are several month old, they relax. Yet these are first class, supple and smooth moving bellows. To be safe I stand by my earlier advice, store your bellows closed.

Dave

I'm surmising that an excessively springing reed gets into some work hardening situation which compromises its subsequent response. This amount of stress seems to be manageable when "broken in" well yet unmanageable when first new. I don't know why and can't prove that stress hardening is the culprit. My observations of many such instances have convinced me to accept that there is SOME real phenomena happening here.

Rich,

Following the maxim of 'Better Safe than Sorry' and bowing to your greater experience of new reeds, and also given that your advice is easy to follow, being no real imposition on anyone other than a rampant Morris musician playing in a gale force wind beside a major airport, I accept the point as made.

After all sod the theory, its what works that counts

Dave

RM, I don't think you are wrong. In the stringed instrument trade, its known that an instrument played in an unusual or incomplete way will be compromised in some ways. for instance an violin that has never been played in the 5th position even if its 100 years old will not respond in that range. Why not the concertina. The Idea of work hardening and reed movement is possibly important. All of this is ifemeral , but interesting none the less. ( we still need spell check on site as my Latin is more than rusty, its none existant, and I am marginaly dyslexic) Best, AW

Steve's advice is for concertina bellows, not accordion bellows - very different kettles of fish! My post was on breaking in bellows rather than on their storage position and balanced to include Sharon's concern for her Salterelle Nuage.

Still, I do feel that a broken-in concertina bellows needs no special storage position, and storing a concertina in its case falls into this category. I don't see any problem with an "at rest" position being slightly open. If this means that the "working range" on the bellows is better than if when stored closed, I'm all for it.

It seems to me that what we want to do is to store a squeezebox so that such storage position does not hinder playability. Concertinas with their very flexible bellows and little memory (IC even when new, CC when broken in) aren't very fussy when it comes to storage. They don't/won't "remember" their stored position muchly.

OTOH, some bellows - particularly the accordion type bellows - have a great deal of fabrication memory that needs to be dissapated. Such a bellows will take a long time to be worked-in if it is always kept stored closed.

My very first (and very cheap) concertina had very stiff bellows when new and wanted to stay closed all the time. This made it very hard to play notes on the draw. Since I found it easier to push than to draw I stored this instrument with the bellows extended until it was broken in a bit. This actually made it easier to play. In my case the "sping action" was working against me on the draw. Later I stored it closed. I think storing it closed leaves less air in the instrument which means also less humidity to play havoc with metal parts, but I am no expert and have no idea if this has any effect on anything. Never the less, I now store my instruments closed.

On the breaking in of instruments (again I am not an expert) I do know that leaving a stringed instrument in front of your stereo speakers and playing CDs of the music the instrument is intended for will speed up the break in process on such instruments. Something to do with sympathetic vibrations. I have absolutly no idea if this same process works for free reeds, but I don't see how it can hurt.

Hiya Rex,

My mandolin is already broken in. Do you think I should play music for it to keep it happy? I'm not sure what kind of music it likes. I like Irish, folk, cajun, klezmer, Cape Breton, well I guess I like most everything. Maybe I'll get it it's own CD player.

All teasing aside, I guess it's possible that the strings could vibrate in sympathy and the break in process could be assisted. It's just that it sounds so science fiction.

It is kind of neat when you think about it.
Thanks,
Helen

(caught in the act of moving her concertina next to CD player in her work cubicle that is currently blasting some very nice Ian Robb music)

Hey, can't hurt!

One of the many nice things about futzing around with that 1924 Wheatstone last week was how beautifully broken in the bellows were. I made the analogy at the time: friend's old Wheatstone = butter; my new Hohner = potato chips.

Maybe I shouldn't store it with the bellows straps snapped?

I was just imagining you putting head phones on you concertina so you don't bother your coworkers. LOL.
Actually from what I have read, the break in on stringed instruments has nothing to do with the strings, otherwise you would need to break it in again each time you changed string. It is the wood soundboard (top) that needs to "learn" to vibrate with the strings. I actually had a German made fiddle that an old fellow had stored for 75 years in a closet. He sold it at an auction. It sounded terrible for a month then over the period of one week the thing just started to sing. I have since sold that same instrument to a local player who is very good (I never was and no longer own any fiddles) and he absolutly loves the tone of it. The first month I had it it sounded like a bag full of cats fighting.
So remember, do not leave your instrument next to a bag of cats!
A note to animal lovers: I have never placed a cat in a bag!

Hiya,

I am posting to this thread to bring it back up for Mavityre. I apologize, I don't know how to tell someone the way to locate old posts.

Hope this is helpful for your concerns about the reeds in your new instrument.

Helen

edited to fix typo

I have just re-made steel reeds for an English concertina that I put together several years ago. Whilst one needs to be well aware of objectivity vs subjectivity when judging tonal quality and playability, I am fairly certain that I have detected an improvement in tone and response during the 2 weeks since I filed the reed-steel. I have also noticed this in an Anglo that I made. OK, I realize that controlled physical tests are required to fully verify this; however,I have a hypothesis that some sort of relaxation(??) takes place in freshly-worked spring steel in a relatively short period, and that this is advantageous to the concertina's sound.

I'm glad that this thread has come back. I was recently thinking of trying to restart it, because it veered off to a discussion of bellows and then faded away without any comment from some of the makers whom I was hoping would participate.

To recap, Rich Morse stated his opinion that

Rich based this opinion, in part, on experience acquired in selling many dozens of melodeons to Morris musicians, who tend to play at full throttle, and then complain that their recently acquired box has become lifeless:

Chris, you observed that newly made reeds seem to develop a better sound over a short period (two weeks). That in itself is an interesting observation, but it then raises a question: Do you think the reeds would not have developed as favorably if the box had been played hard during this period?

A question for all the commercial makers on this board (Rich Morse, Frank Edgley, Bob Tedrow, others?): Do you specifically instruct owners of you new instruments to avoid playing the reeds hard and/or to vary the level of stress on the reeds during a break-in period? Do you have an information sheet or the equivalent for new owners that conveys these suggestions?

Another thought - Harmonica manufacturers DO recommend that not too much force be used on the reeds during early playing - especially the lower reeds! Free reeds are free reeds - perhaps they know something WE should know?

Rich, don't you think that your observation on the 'Morris Hohners' could be a bit biased? My immediate thought is that *any* vigorous playing style would be more apt to cause greater 'out of tune' effect (either done initially or later on) but I hardly believe this would be much related to the issue of 'breaking in' or not, except if so, very marginally.
According to much experience all new reeds change their behavior (and of then their tone..) during an initial playing phase. My guess is that this 'fact' has caused various degrees of belief in the 'breaking in' issue. It could also to a part be a strategic position by some makers to recommend customers to go gentle for a while in order not having to retune the instrument shortly after delivery. BECAUSE...after production (and initial tuning)..or after any retuning...there will always be some uneveness in tuning accuracy when the instrument has been played for a while. ( I guess any maker/repairer will confirm this...) In consequence some makers/repairers do advice their customers to get back for a fine tuning after some months of regular playing.

Dave and Rich, technically the matter of metallic stress tolerance seemingly is the clue and a lab test should not be too difficult to perform....comparing
1) the breaking point for momentary and continuous load for 'new' or 'used' reeds respectively
2) the pitch stability for the 'new' and 'used' reed
3) the tonal characteristics for the 'new' and 'used' reed

Guesses of mine:
- I don't believe 'breaking in' means that you protect the reed from momentary breach...rather the opposite
- I believe breach from continuous load increases with time of use
- I believe amplitude response decreases with use related to possible stress weakening of the metal
- I likewise believe pitch stability decreases with use (which could be 'one' explanation that instruments tone may seem to "mellow" with use)
- 'Something' does seem to happen with tone from regular and lasting playing. I believe one part of it is psychologic, I have wondered if the continuous 'gymnastics' of the reed could cause some change in the tonal spectrum. The experience from 'coming in from the cold' wintertime with any squeezebox adds to this thought.

Goran

The reeds definitely do change in sound.
I have been playing my new morse ceili for a total of 5 weeks now and it has changed in that time.
Last night before heading off to the session I checked the tuning on my fiddle so had the tuner to hand.
The notes more frequently used have a different sound to the lesser used ones although they are all still bang on in tune. They are smoother sounding on the regularly played ones and the more or less unplayed (middle row a+b r/hside for eg.) are more *edgy*. Because I play irish music the middle r/h row doesn't fall quite as easily under the fingers as it is runs for f#/g+a/b on the bottom row that I use mostly. Hence I noticed quite a change when I was checking the tuning on it. I just got to check these things.
A very pleasant surprise.
In fact people kept commenting on how well it sounded.

I did as suggested and treat it as I do with a new car. Nothing too long and loud and varied playing. Lots of it mind, I am accused of never putting it down.

Sharron

Sharron:"The notes more frequently used have a different sound to the lesser used ones although they are all still bang on in tune."

Goran:Hmm..."bang on in tune"...is a slightly dubious expression. All free reeds have an 'amplitude/pressure gradient' related pitch (instability). Consequently squeezeboxes are NEVER 'in tune' except possibly at one specific pressure!
Low frequency reeds vary more than high frequency ones with pressure. The variation may be +/- 25 cent or so!! but in the midrange usually less than 5-10 cent, still often much audible.
The sad result of this is that IF you wish your instrument to be ideally in tune you better decide whether you wish to play soft OR loud ALL THE TIME...:-)

So...what you ought to compare (now it is too late...:-) ) is like I said earlier the pitch stability for new and used reeds (better be the identical ones..)

Now..if you are dead sure the tone is different at the same pressure and this being a sort of 'mean' pressure ...at which hopefully the tuning was done...we are approaching the true riddle. WHY is the tone different in that case?

My hypothesis is that
1) the amplitude/pressure response is better for the 'new' reed leading to a virtually 'brighter' perception of the tone
2) the 'gymnastics' of the reed metal may cause the bending and vibration pattern to stabilize in a way different from the 'fresh' pattern and that this may result in reduction of parts of the high frequency tone spectrum.

The common experience is that the tone gets 'mellower/nicer' with playing and acoustically this can hardly be related to anything else than either
- loss of high frequencies or
- enhancement of the fundamental frequency or
- enhancement of some harmonic partial

There is hardly any reason to expect the later two alternatives to occur....

Goran

Whoa there Goran.

Please read my post again.

I am not interested in the why's and wherefor's and I haven't mentioned being either.

I use an electronic tuner designed for idiots like me who just want to be *in tune* without the rest of the hassle.

Bang on in tune is what I said and according to the tuner that is exactly what I get however it is pushed/pulled or hard/soft bellows action. It does not alter the tuning according to the tuner. That is all I am concerned about.

The lesser used buttons are not *broken* in to the same degree and that is why I think the sound has altered. It is only 5 weeks old and *all* the notes had exactly the same type of sound as each other when I bought it. It is only *now* that I find the differences coming to light between *used* and *less well used*.

This will later not be the case as those *less used* buttons will catch up later with more playing.

All I want is to be able to play a nice sounding instrument that is in *tune* no matter what pressure it is played with, and I am getting just that.

Frequencies and stuff such as that mean nothing at all to me and I have enough to get on with without worrying about it.

I am just stating what I think about *breaking in reeds* that they do change, I thought that it would be an interesting observation just as to how quickly considering my little box is only 5 weeks old.

Sharron

We do sell our Morse concertinas with a "care instruction" sheet though it doesn't get into the "breaking in" advisement. Thanks for bringing this up! I'll revise our insert promptly.

How so?

I think you misread my post.... I had said hard playing, meaning "excessive pressure". The "strong" component of vigorous is appropriate though the "energetic" component of it may be misleading. My observation is that hard initial playing resulted in poor performance (muffly sound, limited dynamic range, poor starting propensity). I did not say anything about it causing reeds to become out of tune.


It's my experience that reeds do not go out of tune. I know that that is a HUGE statement to make, but I feel moved to make things clearer. Let me expound upon this. I am speaking only of the reeds operated within certain tolerances, and without considerations of all the other parts of the instrument. I am not considering rust, subsequent work (tuning) of the reeds, the valves, reedpan, etc. In my experience, a reed will retain the pitch it was fabricated at.

As a part of the operational considerations, I also acknowledge that a reed will be sound slightly higher in pitch when played at a very low volume and somewhat lower in ptich as it approaches it's maximum limit. This propensity and characteristic is inherent given the reed assembly's design and construction. This degree of pitch variance remains constant and is in keeping with my observation that "reeds do not go out of tune". I consider this variance to be a integral part of the operation as it changes in proportion to altering the pitch of the reed.

Reed-only considerations which can cause the pitch to change include stress hardening, fatigue, and physical damage - which all can happen given enough use abuse and poor care. Under normal operational conditions these things will occur to such a small degree to be virtually undetectable. Well, maybe not for the physical damage part as a poor tuner can wreck a reed in an instant.

Going a little further, there are many things that affect the pitch of a reed. The most significant culprit "causing" the reed to change pitch is the valve. New instruments (and newly revalved ones) are tuned to pitch. Over the course of several weeks of playing the valves will take a "set" which some people consider to be "unevenness in tuning accuracy". In reality, this has naught to do with tuning, but with the valves becoming more supple as the area where the valve flexes from (where it is glued down) becomes more abruptly defined. The result is that this allows a slightly less restrictive air path and will result in a reed's pitch to drop slightly - depending on the method of valve attachment, quality of valve, and size of reed and valve - by 1 to 4 (very rarely more) cents.

The advice to have a box retuned to compensate for broken in valves is a good one as once retuned to the new "set", a box will stay in tune for many years. Going "gentle" in breaking in a new box (or retuning) just puts off the valve "set" slightly longer than being a vigorous and constant player would.

This issue of pitch is distinct from the issue of new reed change of behavior and change of tone.

The change of behavior is most noticeable in the way reeds start. If the tip clearance isn't JUST right, a reed will be sluggish to start under certain pressures. Overstressing a reed seems to result in the reed at rest being closer to the plate than ideal. This generally makes a reed difficult to start at moderate to high initial pressures though it will respond reasonably at lower initial pressures.

Overstressing reeds also seems to limit the latitude of their swing (how far it pedulates) which is a dynamic issue. I don't know the reason or mechanics behind this observation. Maybe someone with the time/money/knowledge/skill/etc. could ascertain why.

Change in tone is seems to have wide acceptance as a real event. I wonder if part of that has to do with some sort of molecular realignment of the reed though I suspect that most of that tone change has to do with the rest of the box becoming more concordant with repeated vibrational patterns.

Rich, I think I basically agree with what you are saying below. I expressed myself a bit too shortly and unprecise (including in the whole the specific effects you sort out as being responsible for 'changes'...)
Consequently we may have possible effects on
1) 'tuning' of the reed accomplished by filing
2) 'tuning' of the reed accomplished while setting the height and curvature of the reed
3) 'tuning' related to valve function
4) 'tone' by change of metal mechanic characteristics related to stress effects
5) 'tone' by change of metal structure
6) 'tone' by influence from other box structures
7)...?

Do I get you right?
Some questions remain:


QUOTE (goran rahm wrote:)
Rich, don't you think that your observation on the 'Morris Hohners' could be a bit biased?

Rich:"How so?"

Goran now: I mean, could you know that all of them had the same distribution of of 'non breaking in' and immediate 'hard' playing of their instruments? Did you try to identify and sort out what different 'damage' could have been done to the tone in respective instruments? or did you merely in general notice that they did not sound so well? Have you not noticed the same with any other instruments from the same batch? or turning it around..maybe the Morris players came back with their instruments because they had noticed something gone wrong and you/we do not know the comparable status of other similar instruments you have sold?


QUOTE (goran rahm wrote:)
My immediate thought is that *any* vigorous playing style would be more apt to cause greater 'out of tune' effect (either done initially or later on) but I hardly believe this would be much related to the issue of 'breaking in' or not, except if so, very marginally.

Rich:"I think you misread my post.... I had said hard playing, meaning "excessive pressure". The "strong" component of vigorous is appropriate though the "energetic" component of it may be misleading. My observation is that hard initial playing resulted in poor performance (muffly sound, limited dynamic range, poor starting propensity). I did not say anything about it causing reeds to become out of tune."

Goran now:Ok I see, but what I wonder is how you/we can know that it was the *hard initial playing* that may have caused the change and not the *total amount of hard playing*??
The point being to separate the possible specific importance of a 'breaking-in routine'.....which is the real issue here

Rich:"It's my experience that reeds do not go out of tune. I know that that is a HUGE statement to make, but I feel moved to make things clearer. Let me expound upon this. I am speaking only of the reeds operated within certain tolerances, and without considerations of all the other parts of the instrument. I am not considering rust, subsequent work (tuning) of the reeds, the valves, reedpan, etc. In my experience, a reed will retain the pitch it was fabricated at."

Goran:Well I agree so far that those other factors probably are the the greater villains when 'a whole instrument' is regarded and found 'out of tune'. But my experince from instruments not having been touched for long periods does say that reeds do go out of tune, some more, some less and some again seem to have stayed in tune for the same long period.
It has happened that some of them regain (part of) the (assumed) original pitch after playing without retuning. This procedure I have tried a few times but I can't say that these instruments have been very uniformly or systematically played. Nevertheless the impression remains.

Rich:"As a part of the operational considerations, I also acknowledge that a reed will be sound slightly higher in pitch when played at a very low volume and somewhat lower in ptich as it approaches it's maximum limit."

Goran: This is not generally correct. It varies with reed frequency and profile type. Without going into details this is one of the functions that J Cottingham has studied and I guess you have studied his paper(s) on it....

Rich:"This propensity and characteristic is inherent given the reed assembly's design and construction."

Goran:Well, that seems to be in line with what I said above

Rich:"This degree of pitch variance remains constant and is in keeping with my observation that "reeds do not go out of tune". I consider this variance to be a integral part of the operation as it changes in proportion to altering the pitch of the reed."

Goran: I have come across to me unexplained irregularities in the pitch variance. One identifiable factor seems to be the accuracy of reed alignment which may change by 'hard handling'. Agree?

Rich:"Reed-only considerations which can cause the pitch to change include stress hardening, fatigue, and physical damage - which all can happen given enough use abuse and poor care."

Goran: Agree...so we could accept that varying degrees of such stress ought to be a possible explanation of tonal change...or?

Rich:" Under normal operational conditions these things will occur to such a small degree to be virtually undetectable."

Goran:What is normal?? I think we can't avoid having a 'statistic normal distribution' and for some part causing detectable changes

Rich:"Going a little further, there are many things that affect the pitch of a reed. The most significant culprit "causing" the reed to change pitch is the valve...................... The result is that this allows a slightly less restrictive air path and will result in a reed's pitch to drop slightly - depending on the method of valve attachment, quality of valve, and size of reed and valve - by 1 to 4 (very rarely more) cents."

Goran:Hm...again.... the effect is not (always) the same for high frequency and low frequency reeds.....

Rich:"The advice to have a box retuned to compensate for broken in valves is a good one as once retuned to the new "set", a box will stay in tune for many years. Going "gentle" in breaking in a new box (or retuning) just puts off the valve "set" slightly longer than being a vigorous and constant player would."

Goran:Hm I wonder..most valves open so much even at low pressure I doubt that gentleness will do much difference here although I agree that the effect is present.

Rich:"This issue of pitch is distinct from the issue of new reed change of behavior and change of tone. "

Goran: Yes, I agree,accroding to the initial 'list' of factors

Rich:"Overstressing reeds also seems to limit the latitude of their swing (how far it pedulates) which is a dynamic issue. I don't know the reason or mechanics behind this observation."

Goran:I don't see what you mean really. I can't share the observation either...Could it be due to some local damage being present? in that case I can understand such an effect. What else is "overstressing" in this context?

Rich:"Change in tone is seems to have wide acceptance as a real event. I wonder if part of that has to do with some sort of molecular realignment of the reed ...."

Goran:The 'common' knowledge about the basis of the tonal spectrum to me seems to speak against such speculations...

Rich:"....though I suspect that most of that tone change has to do with the rest of the box becoming more concordant with repeated vibrational patterns."

Goran:an interesting speculation also but I really find it hard to accept any theoretically understandable basis for it and the experimentation on accordions by Gotthard Richter seem to exclude such box effects....(the vibrations of the box can hardly be expected to cause audible musical sound..but it may be a field to investigate further.....)


Goran Rahm

I think it would be clearer to say that we are considering variations in reed pitch, behavior, and tone. "Tuning" is only one of many things which affects those three characteristics.



We've sold scores of identical boxes over many years - most to whom we know what type of music they play. Our customers complain readily to us when their box doesn't sound/play as well as they think it should - and particularly after comparing theirs to other people's identical make/model/key boxes. Invariably, these folk are Morris musicians who complain that "no matter how hard they press it, their boxes are still slow to speak and not as loud or responsive as other similar boxes". They agree that they've played their new box "full bore" from day one, and within a couple months had noticeably depreciated.

I can readily tell the difference in response when I play these damaged boxes. Generally speaking, the wonky treble reeds are mostly in the G row, mid range. The higher reeds usually sound fine. The bass reeds usually are terrible. Oh, and often there is one treble reed that cracks (the same reed in each box!)

Morris players who don't overstress their boxes don't complain about wonky reeds. Musicians playing other genres and gigs don't complain much either. Seems that there's enough "comparable" going on here to make some generalizations.



The timing of the reed degradation seems to be the defining aspect. We notice this within the first few month's use of a new box. We don't get much complaint (actually, only VERY rarely) of boxes becoming wonky reeded when they are beyond a few months old. Ergo: some playing factor degraded boxes when they were first new. The boxes that are most affected belong to Morris musicians who profess to playing as loud as they could - constantly.



Possibly because the valves have stiffened up which will cause the pitch to change. The valves can vary greatly in dimensions, quality, cut, and securance with could easily account for the differences.



Again - consider the valves. When limbered up to become closer to working the way they did when newer, the pitch of the reed with be closer to what it was then too.



"Frequency and profile type" IS included in my considerations and holds true. J Cottinghams papers show the same results I'm observing. What is not "generally correct" about this observation?



Yes, reed alignment can also affect pitch, though I'm pretty hard pressed to remember a situation where alignment has been changed by "hard handling". If by which you mean excessively stressful playing -no. If you mean intentional reed or plate movement by the act of tuning or resetting a reed - yes.



Getting into work hardening will make the reed stiffer - which will make it not swing as far (in its oscillation or vibration) for the same air pressure. Metal fatigue will make the reed weaker, which results in the reed not being able to pendulate in its normal latitude.



What is that common knowledge?



I'm just going from my own observations and things I've heard repeatedly from violinists, hammered dulcimer players, pianists, flautists, etc..... In the case of violins, they will improve in response and tone by playing. If you put "played in" strings on a new fiddle and new strings on a "played in" fiddle, the latter will have appreciably better response and tone. Same thing with a clarinet's reed/body, guitar's strings/body....



I'm not familiar with Gotthard Richter's work. What did he do which is relevant here?

QUOTE (goran rahm)
Consequently we may have possible effects on... tuning... tone....

Rich:"I think it would be clearer to say that we are considering variations in reed pitch, behavior, and tone. "Tuning" is only one of many things which affects those three characteristics."

Goran:Allright with me but isn't there a risk that the use of "pitch" sometimes will be confusing since it is so commonly used like 'pitch' = 'standard pitch' (i.e. the choosen normal tuning level ...a=435,440...).and "tuning" *mostly* is used for the procedure to adjust the 'original' sound source to a choosen 'standard pitch'. With free reeds the filing procedure, with stringed instruments the adjustment of string tension ...and so on....?? Do most people associate "tuning" also with setting the reed tip and adjustment of the valves? I don't know...I don't speak english...:-)


QUOTE
Rich, don't you think that your observation on the 'Morris Hohners' could be a bit biased....

Rich:" I can readily tell the difference in response when I play these damaged boxes. Generally speaking, the wonky treble reeds are mostly in the G row, mid range. The higher reeds usually sound fine. The bass reeds usually are terrible. Oh, and often there is one treble reed that cracks (the same reed in each box!)"

Goran: And what is the defect with the reeds? "Slow to speak and not as loud"...
"Slow to speak" use to be matter of tip setting...does that fix it? Have you compared them directly with 'new' similar reeds?
"Not as loud" ...you mentioned the valves yourself. Does revalving fix it?
Have the reeds become more flexible/pressure?? What you say later on about metal fatigue speaks against that, or?

Rich:"Morris players who don't overstress their boxes don't complain about wonky reeds. Musicians playing other genres and gigs don't complain much either. Seems that there's enough "comparable" going on here to make some generalizations."

Goran: I don't question your observation but the interpretation may be questionable as long as we don't have a more specific comparable situation:

QUOTE
(Goran before:)but what I wonder is how you/we can know that it was the *hard initial playing* that may have caused the change and not the *total amount of hard playing*?? The point being to separate the possible specific importance of a 'breaking-in routine'.....which is the real issue here

Rich:"The timing of the reed degradation seems to be the defining aspect. We notice this within the first few month's use of a new box. We don't get much complaint (actually, only VERY rarely) of boxes becoming wonky reeded when they are beyond a few months old. Ergo: some playing factor degraded boxes when they were first new. The boxes that are most affected belong to Morris musicians who profess to playing as loud as they could - constantly."

Goran:Hmm..to me it seems as we stay in the dark since we don't have a comparable bunch of Morris players who have been able to control themselves enough (and being "gentle") from the start....:-)

QUOTE
(Goran before)But my experince from instruments not having been touched for long periods does say that reeds do go out of tune, some more, some less and some again seem to have stayed in tune for the same long period.

Rich:"Possibly because the valves have stiffened up which will cause the pitch to change. The valves can vary greatly in dimensions, quality, cut, and securance with could easily account for the differences."

Goran now: Nope...since I have revalved the instruments first( after taken notations of the complete tuning levels inside and outside the box)...taken notations after revalving inside and outside...and again after some period of playing

QUOTE
It has happened that some of them regain (part of) the (assumed) original pitch after playing without retuning. This procedure I have tried a few times but I can't say that these instruments have been very uniformly or systematically played. Nevertheless the impression remains.

Rich:"Again - consider the valves. When limbered up to become closer to working the way they did when newer, the pitch of the reed with be closer to what it was then too."

Goran:Done....see above

QUOTE
Rich:"As a part of the operational considerations, I also acknowledge that a reed will be sound slightly higher in pitch when played at a very low volume and somewhat lower in ptich as it approaches it's maximum limit."

QUOTE
Goran: This is not generally correct. It varies with reed frequency and profile type. Without going into details this is one of the functions that J Cottingham has studied and I guess you have studied his paper(s) on it....

Rich:"Frequency and profile type" IS included in my considerations and holds true.Cottinghams papers show the same results I'm observing. What is not "generally correct" about this observation?

Goran:Particularly 'high pitch reeds' (with a profile thinner at the tip than the base)
may raise their pitch at low volume instead of lowering it

QUOTE
Rich:"Overstressing reeds also seems to limit the latitude of their swing (how far it pedulates) which is a dynamic issue.

QUOTE
Goran:I don't see what you mean really. I can't share the observation either...Could it be due to some local damage being present? in that case I can understand such an effect. What else is "overstressing" in this context?

Rich:Getting into work hardening will make the reed stiffer - which will make it not swing as far (in its oscillation or vibration) for the same air pressure. Metal fatigue will make the reed weaker, which results in the reed not being able to pendulate in its normal latitude.

Goran:Hmm I wonder what happens here really...Do you *know* that the above is a reality??? If 'hardening' has made the reed 'stiffer' the elasticity has changed and this ought to change (raise) the acoustic frequency ="pitch" as well...?!?
Do you mean that 'hardening' and 'fatigue' compensate each other and the reed stays in pitch? Isn't it so that 'work' is a 'softening' factor rather?

QUOTE
Rich:"Change in tone is seems to have wide acceptance as a real event. I wonder if part of that has to do with some sort of molecular realignment of the reed ...."

QUOTE
Goran:The 'common' knowledge about the basis of the tonal spectrum to me seems to speak against such speculations...

Rich:"What is that common knowledge?"

Goran:Sorry, I take that back. Two mistakes...I misinterpreted "realignment" believing it meant 'linearity' and temporarily looked at the tonal spectrum in relation to the macromechanic circumstances. On the contrary..I agree...me too I 'speculate' along the same line...guessing that the molecular structure may change in a way that the bending/swinging pattern of the reed is altered and thus the consequent representation of overtones is changed...and 'tone' different...

QUOTE
Rich:"....though I suspect that most of that tone change has to do with the rest of the box becoming more concordant with repeated vibrational patterns."

QUOTE
Goran:an interesting speculation also but I really find it hard to accept any theoretically understandable basis for it

Rich:I'm just going from my own observations and things I've heard repeatedly from violinists, hammered dulcimer players, pianists, flautists, etc..... In the case of violins, they will improve in response and tone by playing. If you put "played in" strings on a new fiddle and new strings on a "played in" fiddle, the latter will have appreciably better response and tone. Same thing with a clarinet's reed/body, guitar's strings/body....

Goran: This analogy I'm afraid is risky since all these instruments have a 'true resonator' which can be expected to influence on the 'tone'..Squeezeboxes don't have a resonator of this kind but the theoretical speculation that the 'box' nevertheless may cause resonance effects is quite common.

QUOTE
Gotthard Richter seem to exclude such box effects....

Rich:I'm not familiar with Gotthard Richter's work. What did he do which is relevant here?

Goran:Lab studies in order to objectivize acoustical effects from the vibrations in the 'box' -materials and structures - and they speak strongly against (m)any assumed acoustical effects regarding this. 'Acquired' acoustical influence of the box like you are speculating about truly is a fascinating idea but seems even further strange....but allright....I can't deny the possibility.....
If we could get to know more about the matter I think it could be possible to make some systematic studies on the reeds firstly. Measuring stress/fatigue effects on acoustical amplitude/pressure function, mechanical amplitude, breaking point, onset function, tone spectrum....

Goran

[quote=goran rahm]sn't there a risk that the use of "pitch" sometimes will be confusing since it is so commonly used like 'pitch' = 'standard pitch'[/quote]
Musical "pitch" can mean a certain frequency or a particular set of frequencies with a certain frequency basis. As we are talking about individual reeds, individual pitch seems apparent. We might be more precise and speak of frequency rather than pitch but the term "frequency" is more associated with numbers and not music.

[quote]Do most people associate "tuning" also with setting the reed tip and adjustment of the valves?[/quote]
I don't think so. I've always heard the procedure of setting the reed tip clearance to be "voicing", and sometimes "setting". Voicing a reed deals with how quickly a reed starts and doesn't have anything to do with tuning (adjusting the pitch or frequency of the reed). Valves are for efficiency and not tuning, though improperly installed can affect the pitch.

[quote=Gorin responds about Rich's observations on wonky reeds]And what is the defect with the reeds? "Slow to speak and not as loud"...[/quote]
That is what I have said, though "slow to speak and not as loud" is NOT a defect of the reeds but a result of reed damage. I'm using the word "wonky" as a quick way to summarize this characterization. For a non-native English speaker you're doing quite well and I've been trying to "read though" obvious miscommunications. I recommend Dicationary.com for clarification.

[quote]"Slow to speak" use to be matter of tip setting...does that fix it? Have you compared them directly with 'new' similar reeds?[/quote]
Voicing does make the reeds speak more quickly, and yes, I have compared them directly with new similar reeds.

[quote]"Not as loud" ...you mentioned the valves yourself. Does
revalving fix it?[/quote]
No.

[quote]Have the reeds become more flexible/pressure?? What you say later
on about metal fatigue speaks against that, or?[/quote]
I don't have the tools or time to measure such things. Such is only conjectural from my standpoint.

[quote=Rich wrote]Morris players who don't overstress their boxes don't complain about wonky reeds. Musicians playing other genres and gigs don't complain much either. Seems that there's enough "comparable" going on here to make some generalizations.[quote=Goran responded]I don't question your observation but the interpretation may be questionable as long as we don't have a more specific comparable situation.... Hmm..to me it seems as we stay in the dark since we don't have a comparable bunch of Morris players who have been able to control themselves enough (and being "gentle") from the start....[/quote][/quote]
I've said that I've had years of experiences with scores of identical boxes played in defined circumstances including with gentle Morris players. What more do you want?

[quote=Gorin wrote:]But my experince from instruments not having been
touched for long periods does say that reeds do go out of tune. [quote=Rich responded:]Possibly because the valves have stiffened up which will cause the pitch to change.[quote=Gorin responded:]Nope...since I have revalved the instruments
first[/quote][/quote][/quote]
Then you have mislead me by saying that you "hadn't touched the instruments". The basis for discussion is completely changed. Still, my response that the valves are responsible for pitch change in the first few subsequent weeks is appropriate: as they break in, some reed's pitches will change.

[quote=Gorin wrote:]It has happened that some of them regain (part of)
the (assumed) original pitch after playing without retuning.