Hello,

I started playing a few months ago and now I can pretty much manage rolls on the concertina by switching index finger and middle finger pretty fast, which makes rolls I'm happy with, meaning not too slow or robotic, they seem to flow nicely. But my mean problem now is to roll the F# on the pull on the G row. I'm always trying to keep the same position with my finger, sometimes borrowing my index to play a roll on the second column, or my middle finger to play a roll on the third column... But that F# would require me to roll with my little finger and the finger beside it, and it seems very hard. I mean, I think I could practice a lot and manage to play rolls with my little finger and it's neighbor but I'm not sure if it's the way to go.

So there's two choice, I can try to roll the F# with my index and middle finger but then I'm kinda far from my normal playing position and would require lotsa practice to come back in time, or I can learn to roll wth my little finger and the finger beside it, which seems hard but doable wth loads of practice. I don't want to roll using only one finger, I'm not happy with the result.

Is there anyone here who remember having a class with some teacher talking about how to roll the F# or equivalent?

For those of us who have never seen a roll of the type you describe performed on any key, how do you go about it..? Do you need especially thin fingers..?

Chris

As another fairly new player, I'm also having trouble figuring out how to ornament/punctuate that low F#. I'm trying to "crann" (I think!) with various keys on either the left or right hand, but I find it difficult, partly because of a weak left pinky and partly because my left hand didn't recover well from carpal tunnel surgery a few years ago.

Along with Chris, I'd like more information on the roll technique you're describing here.

How do the rest of you people ornament the low F#? (Or is this a closely held secret? )

If you're trying to embellish the F#, with an F#, A, F# (I gather), then you could use the A in the L-2-5 position (left hand, second row, 5th button from the right). You would then be using your index finger to get the A instead of the ring finger as I think you are indication. Another way of embellishing the F# would be to play this sequence: F#, D, B, F#. All of these notes would be on the draw. You would have to use the draw D and B from the second row, right side. The B and D are farther than usual from the melody note but can be effective. What you are trying to achieve is the rhythmic effect with this one. Also, a "slap roll" can be done. You can really hear this on Tim Collins' new CD, and he is a master at it. Play the F# and then slap the right end of the concertina with your middle and index finger. This sets up a vibration though the concertina and results in the effect of 3 or 4 very rapid F#s. This one is not easy and takes a while to get it effectively.

Thanks all.

Here's a clip I just recorded demonstarting what I'm trying to achieve with my rolls. They need more practice but you get the idea. I got think finger, yeah, so hitting the same button with index/middle/index (and middle again for an extra cut) isnt that hard.

http://www.metayer.info/mp3/VOICE156.MP3

Thanks Frank for the hint, but I'll really need to hear someone play that to really get it because I still can't understand how a roll can sound nice hitting 3 different notes, at least on the concertina. I play whistle so I love when my rolls do ya-ta-la on the same note, any extra just being a subtle way to cut the main note.

Last night I experimented holding the F# and hitting two other buttons, but just slightly, not too deep, and it kinda gives me satisfactory results.

Az

PS: Frank, our comon friend, Bill, saw you at Goderich, he said you said hello, so hello! :-)

Frank,

Thanks so much for letting me know I'm on the right track! Guess I just need more practice... I haven't studied a slap roll yet, so I'll keep on with the other methods for now.

Azalin, what Frank's suggesting--ornamenting with additional notes--actually does sound great if someone better than me is playing it. Since my recorded collection is limited, can anyone point Azalin to some specific recorded multinote rolls/cuts/cranns?

A question on terminology here, for Azalin and others:

It sounds to me as if Azalin is attempting what I would call a "triplet", not a "roll". Is concertina terminology different from that used by other instruments? I have not taken lessons from traditional concertina players (except for sitting in on one class by Tim Collins a few years back), so I don't know if they have a common terminology that differs from what I've learned from traditional players of other instruments. My understanding of the terminology as used on the other instruments (flute & whistle, pipes, fiddle) is...

.. 1) A "triplet" on a single note is playing it three times in quick succession. On a fiddle this is known as a "bowing triplet" and is done by rapid reversals of the bow. Its equivalent on a flute or whistle would be "triple tonguing", a technique I've rarely heard in Irish music. These "triplets" are often also rhythmic triplets, e.g., a single eighth note divided into three equal parts, and written in standard notation as three beamed sixteenths with a little "3" above the beam.

.. 2) Another kind of "triplet" ornament is rhythmically like the first, but consists of two notes the same separated by a different note -- usually the note above, sometimes the note below, rarely some other note -- in the middle. However, all three notes are "full" length.

.. 3) A "cut" is a note above the melody note, and a "tip" is a note below, but in all cases -- even in slow airs -- played as short as humanly possible. Cuts and tips can be used as lead-in grace notes, but are also used to break up a single note into quicker repetitions of that same note. They're intended as substitutes for tonguing or bowing, not as notes in their own right. On a fiddle the cut is usually the note of the scale immediately above and the tip is the note immediately below, but on a whistle the cut is often a note (or a hole, not producing an actual "in tune" note, because the intervening fingers aren't lfted) that is higher. E.g., the A-hole is used for cuts on D, E, F#, and G, while the corresponding "cut" notes on a fiddle would all be different. My understanding is that on a concertina, the cuts and tips most often use the buttons above and below the melody note being ornamented.

The main difference between a triplet of the second kind and a note with a cut (or tip) is that the first is intended to be heard as three distinct notes, while the second is meant to be heard as two separate notes, with the cut or tip providing the separation, and not intended to be heard as a separate note. I understand that this originated as a technique on the pipes, where it's not possible to stop the sound, so it's the only way to make it sound like a single note is being repeated. And it's precisely because the cuts and tips are meant to be perceived as separations, rather than as notes, that it doesn't matter that the fiddles, flutes, and concertinas can all play different notes and nobody minds.

.. 4) This brings us to "rolls", as I understand them. A "roll" is a single note broken into three parts, not by stopping the sound (with bowing or tonguing or tapping a button), but by inserting a cut and a tip. So in one sense, it's five notes, not three, but the cut and tip (always, it seems, the cut first, then the tip) are so short as to be heard as separations, not as musical notes.

So why not just use "triplets" of the first kind, on those instruments where you can? And why use a different name for "a single note broken into three parts", just because it's done in different ways? Because even though the separator notes -- the cuts and tips -- can't be heard clearly as separate notes, the overall sound and musical feel is quite different. That difference is why fiddlers use rolls in some places and bowing triplets in others, or may even switch between them on different repetitions of a tune. The same should hold for concertina players. If you want to just play the same note three times in succession, you can, but a roll can sound really nice.

There is also what is known as a "short roll", which just leaves off the first of the three repetitions of the base note, starting with the cut as a grace note.

.. 5) Finally, there is the "cran". A "cran" is a single note divided not by a cut and a tip, but by multiple cuts, each using a different "higher" note. On pipes or a whistle, that means that each cut uses a different finger. The most common cran -- in fact, almost the only one I've ever seen used -- is a cran on the low D. The reason is simple; there is no "lower" note to use for a tip. For reasons lost in the mists of time, the standard cran uses three cuts, not two, thus dividing the base note into four parts rather than three.

Just as the particular notes used for cuts and tips are a matter of what instrument is being played or even of individual choice, which notes to use as the cuts in a cran vary from player to player. The low D cran on the pipes or whistle seems generally to be done using the notes F#, G, and A, though the E could be used. But... I learned the sequence as A-G-F#, yet the piper who taught me that said that he sometimes finds it easier to play A-F#-G, and a flute player told me that she uses F#-G-A.

.. 6) As I said above, I haven't taken lessons on the concertina. In fact; I haven't yet tried to carefully study the playing on those recordings I have. Mainly I experiment. One thing I've noticed, though, is that it's as easy on the concertina to cut with a note far above the base note as with one nearby. That's difficult on flute or fiddle, since it requires change of breath or bowing. But on the concertina it can sound quite nice... sometimes.


SO... Frank and the rest, does the term "roll" really mean something different on the concertina than on the other instruments? And does Tim Collins really call his ornament a "slap roll" now? I recall that when he taught it at Bielefeld several years ago he called it a "triplet", and didn't use the term "roll".

What Azalin is describing, at least in terms of his whistle playing, is indeed a roll, not a triplet. When he talks about it sounding like ya-ta-la all on the same note, he's referring to achieving success in making the grace notes (the cut and tap) so short as to just be separations, not distinguishable notes. The only note you hear is the one being ornamented (the "base note" in Jim's terminology), and it is clearly and crisply separated into three parts. This is something I've achieved on my flute exactly once. Then again, Azalin plays a lot more than I do.

I can't speak for what he's trying to achieve on the concertina, because I play English, not anglo, and even at that I'm still pretty close to brand new.


Steven

I'll be glad to pipe in with my 2 cents worth but first:

I don't hear any low F# in your clip. I hear rolls/triplets (ornamentation) at low E, A and high G, maybe a few others but no F#. Please clarify.

Jim, thanks for the terminology help. I have no formal training in traditional music despite my many years of playing the whistle, and when it comes to matters such as these, my ignorance shows!

Jim, for me a triplet isnt what you describe, a triplet is 3 different notes, usually going up and following each other, that will replace two dots in the tune. I'm pretty sure it's also classical music terminology, never her triplet for what you are describing.

Steve, yes, rolls for me are what you are describing. In the whistle and flute world, triplets are what I described above and rolls are the same note being played but slightly evenly separated twice, which could give the impression you're playing the same note but hitting it three times.

Sandy, my clip contains rolls on different notes because this is exactly my problem, I can't really roll the F# the way I roll other notes, so this is an example about how I roll other notes. I'm hitting the same buttin three times, using two different fingers so that I can do it at "machine-gun" speed.

I'm currently working on holding the F# while I softly but quickly hit the top of the left side of the concertina (some random button or buttons) and do the same on the right side. It really gives what I want, an F# being "cut" by something twice, but I don't hit the sides strong enough to actually play a note, it will just add a separation to the main note.

I just added this clip, it starts with a triplet and have often the same triplet patter throughout the first part, triplet is Bcd... Rolls are played often on the G and the E. There is no triplet in the second part but lotsa rolls.

http://www.metayer.info/mp3/VOICE157.MP3

Well sais, Jim. Quite a detailed explanation. To answer your questions:

"SO... Frank and the rest, does the term "roll" really mean something different on the concertina than on the other instruments?"
ANS> Yes. If you check on pages xii ans xiii of CeolRince na Eireann, you will find the different ways to play fiddle onpipes, whistle, fiddle and accordion. Concertinas are not included on these pages, but I remember in a class I took with John Mc Mahon in Milltown Malbay 12 or so years ago that the were several ways to play rolls on a concertina. While theoretically a roll is what Jim explained, not every instrument is set up so that the "perfect" roll can be achieved on every note on all instruments. What is strived for is an embellishment which satisfies the rhythmic effects of a roll rather than the actual note pitches.

And:

"does Tim Collins really call his ornament a "slap roll" now? I recall that when he taught it at Bielefeld several years ago he called it a "triplet", and didn't use the term "roll".
ANS> He called it a slap roll at the Comhaltas Convention in St. Louis a few years back. That's not to say that he didn't call it a triplet when you heard him in that workshop you attended. Embellishment terminology seems to be fairly loose in this area. That's why I didn't put labels on embellishments in my tutor. The terminology varies from player to player just as the embellishments vary depending on the style and which buttons you use for your "default" position.

A note to "Azalin". Hi, nice playing. Nice sounding instrument, too.

Well, thanks, my instrument is actually a Frank Edgley ;-) I'm far than being happy with my playing on the concertina, off course, after listening to some Michael O'Raghallaigh I just know it will take many years to achieve something I like <sigh> There's just so much to handle and the potential of what you can do on the concertina for me is limitless, compared to the whistle anyway.

OK. A tune like The Wise Maid presents an opportunity for embellishment (Roll, triplet, crann, whatever, call it what you want) on the first note, low F# (quarter and eighth note, or dotted quarter note).

On an anglo I would ornament it like this:

Rhythm---first 1/4 note becomes two 1/16s and an 1/8 (irish triplet) then the following 1/8 note on the second beat.

Notes---F#-A-F#---F# (all on the pull, left side)
Fingers--pinky-index-pinky-ring

or-------F#-d-b-----F# (d and b pull right side C row)

The middle 2 notes of either example should be very crisp (they are there for rhythm, not melody)

In most cases a *same note* triplet (you call it a roll) on a low F# won't be practical because, as you indicate, your fingers are pulled so far out of a *normal* position. The two examples above offer the same rhythmic pattern and are very typical (especially the second example) to the unique sound of Irish concertina style.

An excellent example.


A quibble regarding your description, Sandy, but if "crisp" means "short", then I would think the "two 1/16s" would apply to the middle two notes, not the first two.


An alternative fingering could be: pinky-index-ring-pinky.


To make that more like what I would consider a roll, I would play
... F#--d--F#--B--F#
Where each F# is essentially a full 8th note, and the d and B are struck as briefly as possible in the gaps where the (little) finger lifts off the F# button and drops again. I find that I can easily play the three 8th notes on F#, but the space between them makes it sound sluggish. But sticking other, "crisp" little notes into those gaps hides the sluggishness and gives the whole thing a crisp feel. And there are many alternatives for those in-between notes: d & B, yes, but also d & A, B & A, f# & A... well, you get the idea.

As an alternate rhythm for Sandy's first ornament, I would use three equally-spaced 8th-note F#'s, putting the A between the first two and leaving a gap between the second two. In the terminology I'm used to, that would be a cut separating the first two (or "dividing the first quarter note"), with the last one simply considered a separate note. And if you have a low A next to the F# instead of a duplicate D, a lovely alternative is to use that lower A in the same pattern (starting with your ring finger on the F#, of course), instead of the upper one.

For a quite different "enhancement" -- not an "ornament" in the sense of these others -- try playing the F# as a quarter note and an 8th note, with no "extra" notes in the gap, but playing D along with the F# on the quarter note. (For a tune in Bm, put a low B under the F#, rather than a D.) That's a technique often used by fiddlers and even pipers (not necessarily with the same notes), which is quite impossible on the flute or whistle. (I notice that Azalin already uses that technique on the high F#.)

Precisely my description of a "roll", but I wasn't referring to his whistle playing, nor to descriptions, but to the concertina playing on his mp3. There are several places where he plays three identical notes in quick succession, but on none of them can I hear any grace notes. My description -- and my understanding from other instruments -- is that with the grace notes it's a "roll", but without them it's just three notes.

I don't really want to argue, Frank, but I do get tired of people quoting Brendán's book as if it were the word of God. In my experience, his notations of the ornaments are simply wrong. E.g., on the long rolls he notates the middle of the three "base" notes (my term) as being just another grace note and as short as the notes above and below, but that's simply not the way a roll sounds. If I did hear an ornament played that way, I wouldn't perceive it as a roll.

Even the particular notes he shows for some of the whistle rolls, though reasonable alternatives, are different from the fingerings that I've learned are pretty well standardized among traditional players. In my experience, the Comhaltas tin whistle tutor gives a much more accurate representation of what most traditional players actually play.

Thanks so much, all, for your help on these ornaments. It's incredible how much helpful energy is available in this forum!

And Azalin, I completely agree with your sentiments on moving from whistle to concertina. The concertina is so much more complex, and to me its challenges seem pretty daunting compared to the whistle, which I'm guessing from your lovely playing must have come fairly naturally to you.

Ah, gotcha. Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about the description.

As for what you say here about rolls versus "just three notes," I agree with you completely. I would not, however, call it a triplet if it lacks the grace notes, because at least in my understanding a triplet takes the same amount of time as a quarter note, not a dotted quarter (or three eight notes). Three eighth notes in succession, whatever the notes might be, are "just three notes."


Steven

JIM: "I don't really want to argue, Frank, but I do get tired of people quoting Brendán's book as if it were the word of God. In my experience, his notations of the ornaments are simply wrong."
RES> I don't know about "the Word of God", but Brenach's book is a well respected authority on Irish Trad music. I merely used that example to illustrate the fact that rolls are played differently on different instruments, not the actual gracenotes in the book. Although, even though I'm not an expert on all those instruments, I would say that he (Brenach) probably knew more about the subject than either of us.
As for the Comhaltas tin whistle tutor, two points:
1/ it illustrates that there is less than universal agreement on how rolls are played (if it indeed is different than Coel Rince), and
2/ it is a whistle tutor. As far as I know, it makes no claim as to how to play rolls on other instruments.
As to the word "wrong," it is a word that really has limited relevance in traditional music. "Musical", "Unmusical", Traditional", Non-traditional", Typical, "Atypical" are far more relevant. You will find many different ways to embellish notes when you listen to different top players. I'm not saying that Brenach's rolls are right or wrong, unless there has been a typo. The judgement that he is right or wrong is best left to authorities with more credentials. Otherwise, the word "wrong" is merely an opinion.

Funny. I'm the one who usally says that.
But as I said, Brendán's notations of rolls in general are rhythmically at variance with any and all of the many traditional musicians I've heard. And the specific notes he indicates for at least two of the whistle rolls are are not what I've observed -- or been taught -- by any of the many whistle players I've encountered, while those in the Comhaltas tutor are. So I consider it dubious to take his notations as definitive of the tradition, which so many people do.

Jim, I do intend 'crisp' to mean 'short' but not in terms of rhythmic value, but instead in terms of duration, that is, stacatto.

In traditional Irish music (and especially modern Irish concertina style) the use of a triplet to embellish a quarter note is much more often than not performed as 2 sixteenths and an eighth, rather than the 'formal' triplet of three equal duration notes squeezed into a quarter note's time. The term I use for this is "Irish triplet', a term that I was taught by one of the masters of the Irish concertina style. I would never execute a quarter note triplet embellishment with an eighth followed by two sixteenths. It just wouldn't be stylistic.

I agree with Frank that the application of terms from the lexicon of classically trained (or what I prefer to call 'formally' trained) musicians is often misguided when describing or discussing traditional music, especially if the discussion is not restricted to people with formal training.

By way of example: Norman Blake (fine old-time guitarist) uses the term 'roll' to describe a technique that is not in any way related to the type of roll(s) being discussed here. Indeed , a fine traditional Irish banjo player here in Chicago uses the term 'roll' to describe that same technique.

"What (you) would consider a roll" (... F#--d--F#--B--F#) may indeed be a roll in the lexicon of formal music (where's the note below the melody note??) but I'm fairly certain that most of even the very best traditional style anglo concertina players wouldn't describe that pattern as what they consider to be a roll.

Of course, play rolls any way you want to, but the farther away you get from the stylistic elements of traditional Irish concertina style, the less the performance remains in the tradition. This is neither here nor there, good or bad. Breaking rules is fine. But there is no honor in breaking rules without an awareness of what the rules are.

I'm not implying that you don't know the rules, only that my posts here at C.net only appear when I feel (rightly or wrongly) that I can be of some help with advice to someone seeking help or advice. Azelin should know what is a 'typical' (Frank's word) method to ornament notes. I'm assuming that Azelin is interested in traditional Irish music because of the clips that were submitted for consideration.

I could be wrong.....

Breandan Breathnach was the first tot write irish music as he heard it played. it is only in vol 2 of Ceol rinnce na hEirreann that he used a full written version of the ornament used, in all other volumes he used the 'half moon' symbol (though some have called it a nail clipping) to indicate the player whose music was being transcribed used some form of ornamentation. To suggest his transcriptions would not be true to the tradition seems wide off the mark.

Thanks for all the replies concerning my "mysterious" roll on the F#. I think I'll basically need to hear it in person, and see someone play it, there's just too much theory and I'm just bad at reading what I'm supposed to play, I need to hear and see, so I'll be in Ireland for almost three weeks in november, should have loads of concertina lessons there :-)

In the meantime, I'm very happy with a technique I'm using the simulate my whistle rolls on the concertina (on the F#, but can be applied elsewhere). I'm not sure if it's similar to what Frank described as a slap roll, but I'm simply slapping the left side and the right side of the concertina to "cut" the notes, and it's very, very similar to what I'm trying to achieve, at least related to a roll on the whistle. Here's a clip of a tune I didnt want to learn until I could manage something on the F#.

http://www.metayer.info/mp3/VOICE162.MP3

Please let me know what you think of the "roll" on the F#, does it suck to your hear? You prefer the other ways of embelishing a three quarter notes?

So what? There are lots of people -- including trained folklorists -- writing inaccurate transcriptions of music. "First in print" isn't necessarily the same as "most accurate".


Not true. In his unnumbered volume (which I presume is vol. 1) he uses the 'half moon' in the tune transcriptions, but he details their structure with transcriptions on pp. xii-xiii, and it's those transcriptions that I'm taking issue with. Breandán almost certainly had more experience with Irish music and musicians than I do, but I still have a great deal, and when my experience differs from his book, I prefer to trust my experience. In the end, I recommend that everyone else do the same... i.e., listen to the traditional musicians and try to play what you hear, and if someone has written something different, consider it a variation, not a correction.

Sounds good! Worth working on. I can't say that I've ever heard anyone else do quite the same thing, but maybe they should. Maybe you could teach the rest of us?


I prefer having a variety of ways to choose from. Yours adds one more. Good!

I still wouldn't call it a "roll", of course, just because I think it's useful to be able to distinguish between the three notes with intervening grace notes and the same three without.

OK. I may have been confused about what you intended. If you intended a quarter-note triplet followed by a 8th note, fine. But I would consider that to be something entirely distinct from a "roll", which is what I thought you were trying to describe. In a roll on a dotted quarter, as I understand the concept, either the three repetitions of the base note (not to be confused with "bass" note ) are equal or the first is longer than the other two.


I agree, too. What I've been taking as the basis for my position is not any "formal" training -- except in the accurate use of music notation, -- but what I have learned from traditional Irish musicians I've associated with over the years. But I've had much less contact with Irish concertina players than with whistlers, fluters, pipers, and fiddlers, and it seems from this discussion that the concertinists are much less consistent than those others in both their terminology and the actual ornaments they play. There may also be differences in dialect (usage of individual words) among different groups of musicians. (We've certainly found that to be true with regard to the term "single jig". )


Sure. The meanings of many words depend on context, e.g., an archery "bow" vs. a "bow" knot. Or a "roll" in a bakery....


Inaccurate quoting there, since what I said was "more like what I would consider a roll". Without the note below, it wouldn't fit what I'm used to as the definition of a roll (ornaments both up and down, like a "rolling" wave), but it's sort of a hybrid between a roll and a cran. On the other hand, if one is going to extend the meaning of the term "roll", that's less of a stretch than most of the other suggestions. But again, I'm talking about the term as used by traditional players of whistle, fiddle, etc. As far as I know, there is no ornament called a 'roll' "in the lexicon of formal music".


A reasonable statement on the face of it, but what I think I'm learning here is that the "stylistic elements" on concertina depart not only from those on other instruments, but also vary more among the traditional players than for the other instruments. In any case, my objection -- if that's what it is -- is not to the ornaments themselves, but to calling them by names that are inconsistent with what those names mean to players of other instruments. Like calling an accordion a "concertina". But as I indicated above, I may be too late, and all I can do is present my viewpoint, not demand that everyone else adopt it. It seems that to concertina players any ornamentation of a dotted quarter-note is called a "roll". I'll learn to live with it.

But whatever you call them, all those ornaments do help add interest and variety to the music.

I agree wit hyou on the listening part but not on the transcription part. if you take issue with the way Breandan notated his rolls in the appendix i still think it's not fair to dismiss his transcription work.

re the whsitle rolls, i assume you take issue with the way he notated the rhtyhmic approach to the roll, as far as I can see the actual content (the notes) is pretty much the standard one. The appendix was added to accommodate strangers t othe music really,a rough guide to some standard ornamentation. The half moon symbol was in place to assure every player would add the ornamentation of his own choice. Breandan would have told you to listen to get it right. much as you do yourself.

Actually, that's true of the rolls he gives for all the instruments. Most are notated as two strong repetitions of the base note, with intervening grace notes, rather than the three strong repetitions that to me define a roll. He relegates the middle repetition of the base note to being just another grace note.


Should I nit pick by saying that I consider the rhythmic content to be even more important as "content" than the individual notes? As for the notes, those for the F#, G, and B rolls look OK, but I'm used to the E roll almost always using A instead of G and the A roll using C#, not B. And while I wouldn't expect a "roll" on the C# or high D, there's often some ornament.

In fact, one "problem" with Breandán's tune transcriptions (and just about everybody else's) is that he doesn't tell us what instruments they were transcribed from. It's not just that different instruments play the ornaments differently, but often the different instruments play ornaments in different places. E.g., where the whistle or pipes might roll an A, a fiddler might well just give it a strong accent and hold it, maybe double-stopping it with a D or E, and maybe not.

But even the same musician will often vary whether they ornament in a particular place, or where they ornament a tune on different repetitions. Many of us know that, but many beginners get caught in the trap of assuming that there's only one "right" way, even down to the last millisecond. OK, I've digressed. But I don't think we have any serious disagreements, only different perspectives. I think I'll go play some music, now.

Eh, thanks for the moral support :-) I do my "ornament" by slapping the sides of the concertina, nothing fancy really. But I don't think I'm ready quite yet to develop a technique that's going to change the whole way people play concertina :-D I guess I'll do that for now but I'll really try to learn how to play a "real" concertina roll while I'm in Ireland.

JIM: "Should I nit pick by saying that I consider the rhythmic content to be even more important as "content" than the individual notes?"

RES> I would agree with you on this.

I don't think we have major disagreement either. breathnach does give the sources of his tunes and the instrument played so you can in fact see where the tune came from.

Paul de Grae did a wonderful job translating the notes to Ceol Rinnce into English, adding information from his own research. This can be found on nigel Gatherer's website (sorry don't have the address handy) Very helpful stuff indeed.