Why do you think in the 31 button wheatstone layout they have a "c" drone in the left hand Why not "d" Seems to me that "d" would be more useful. A penny for your thought or insight. Thanks Doug Barr

Well the usefulness of any given drone depends on what it is used for. The D drone would be popular now adays since in all likely hood the biggest demand for 31 button CG anglos would be for Irish music. But you have to remember alot of these instruments were used for music that was decidely not Irish. I suspect that many of the tunes that people originally played on them were in the key of C and G were probably next in popularity (explaining the tuning of the instruments.).

Bill

Oh, a drone- is that what that is? I have one on my C-G Jeffries and haven't yet explored the possibilities. Enlightenment, anyone?

Doug,

The LH thumb button is the traditional place to find the middle C, draw, on a C/G anglo with 31 or more keys. This is often a useful note for melody or harmony, and usually unavailable elsewhere in that direction.

The press note on that button is much more variable. F (natural) above middle C is very common, a second middle C (making the button a "drone," although one whose sound is interrupted when changing bellows direction), Bb, Eb, and other possibilities are not uncommon. Roger Digby, among others, has strongly advocated for the subdominant (F on a C/G) as the most useful press note for the LH thumb, for his style of playing. I like that and use it, but also like the C drone.

From your question I infer that you use the C/G to play in D major, maybe Irish dance music or other sorts of "fiddle tunes." But if you want to create a middle D drone effect for this purpose, with practice you can learn to alternate between the little finger (press on the G row) and the ring finger (draw on the C row) to use the D notes already available in the main rows of the instrument. If you learn this technique well you will find you can easily add (or subtract) a D drone at will to melodies and harmonies, changing finger and button to keep the D going when the bellows must change to accommodate what else you are playing. This technique has the advantage that you can do it on almost any C/G you encounter, even a 20 key. Like the "drone button," when present, the sound of this note will have to start and stop at least instantaneously when changing bellows direction, but that effect can be minimized with practice, and it can also be used to good musical effect.

Some have criticized the use of "drones" in concertina playing because (unlike some pipes) the concertina drone effect is often as loud as the melody notes. Again, with practice and good musicianship this apparent disadvantage can be turned to good musical effect, by first playing the melody without drones to "get it into the listener's ears," by doubling the melody in octaves, etc. Remember, many other traditional instruments use drones that are as loud, or louder than the melody, and that may start and stop in a "breathing" manner. But if the concertina drone and related effects as used by Willie Mullally, Mrs. O'Dwyer, John Kelly, and many other players is too "wild sounding" for you, by all means avoid it!

Some anglos have a 3rd middle D at the bottom of the G row, draw, and this can be even easier to use in alternation with the G row press D as each can be played with the little finger, leaving the rest of your fingers free for melody and other harmonies. But rather than having 3 copies of that D note I prefer to put a low A draw in that position (see Chris Ghent's question in another recent topic).

Finally, never forget the naturalness and beauty of playing a C/G anglo in its "home keys" of C, F, G, and related modes. It is a beginner's mistake to assume that Irish tunes (for example) most familiarly played in D must be played, or even sound best, in that key. "D tunes" in C, "G tunes" in F, etc. can sound great on a C/G as the best players know. Even if you play often with others you might want to encourage them to try this with you. C whistles are cheap, guitarists have capos, fiddles have tuning pegs....

Paul

P. S. On the other hand, of course you can put in a D "drone" in any concertina of traditional construction with a LH thumb button, and that is the kind of thing I have done for my retail customers on occasion, even experimenting with small, quiet brass reeds for a muted effect. For entry-level instruments this kind of custom work would probably not be economical. The main point of my answer above is that I enjoy the way the fine traditional anglos were laid out and I, like others before me, have found ways to use the traditional features to create sounds I like. Today's players with two or even thirty years' experience in a relatively recent revival should never be too quick to assume they know better than the best players and makers of the nineteenth century who established (albeit variable) "standard" layouts.

(edited to correct "draw" to "press" in the second paragraph and to add some stuff)

That would bee for use by males only.

Not all of them. But I've really come to love my Copeland (=expensive) C whistle even more than the D. Also, with most brands of whistles, the C has a somewhat larger bore than the D, which seems to give a richer sound. On some tunes I like the sound of my C Generation (=cheap) whistle better than the D.

By all means, try some of your tunes in C, and try to get your whistle friends to join you. (For them, it's hardly more than picking up a different whistle.) Everybody might like the result.

yeah but keep in mind that you are going to play havoc with the box and flute players...

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Bill

Well, B/C boxers have all the notes. It wouldn't hurt them to learn a few tunes in a second key.

As for the rest, stopping to listen for tune or two shouldn't hurt them, either.

Yeah they have all the notes, and they do on the C#/D box too... (in fact a C#/D player could probably use a B/C box to play the tunes in the the alternate keys you suggested.
Still that being said, its just not good session ettiquite to expect players in a session to learn the tunes in non traditional keys.

In any case, the C/G Anglo is perfectly servicable for learning tunes in D and G and I bet that in large part the unique style of Irish concertina music came from learning to play in those keys and not necessarily for the key the instrument was best suited.

--
Bill

Hi Bill,

I understand where you are coming from, but no one said anything about "expecting" other players to do anything. I suggested "encouraging them to try." Depending on the situations in which you play with others, whether or not they are "sessions," (a term that means very different things to different people), it may or may not be polite to choose a key for a tune that is unfamiliar to some others present.

I wouldn't start up "The Boys of Bluehill" in C in a public session where I didn't know anyone, or where there were a lot of beginners present for whom this tune (in D) might be one of their few hard-earned public opportunities to play. I agree with you, that would be a "breach of etiquette." But in a private get-together, or when playing with good players I know can handle unusual keys, or when playing publicly in more of a "gig" setting, with proper consultation and agreement among the players the unusual keys are lovely. Or, of course, for my own practice and enjoyment at home.

At times and places, keys and/or pitches that many of us would consider unusual and that you might consider a breach of "session etiquette" are/were actually the norm. Jacky Daly told me that when he grew up, it was all Hohner C/C# ericas played on the inside row so the fiddle players tuned down a half step. I'm sure if a D whistle or higher-pitch wooden flute player came through the area, turns would have had to be taken. The late Tony Crehan used to love playing in C and would organize groups of musicians to play together in that pitch. "C" sessions are not uncommon at piper's gatherings, etc.

In my view session etiquette is based on considerateness, negotation, and agreement among the musicians present (or at least among the leaders of the session, if there are such). If it's the kind of session that ebbs and flows and listening is just as important as bashing out the tunes, Jim's suggestion is not out of place. I love to hear a tune I don't play, or don't play in that key or that setting, if it's well done. I am not offended that I can't join in, I just enjoy listening to some great music. Some of the very best sessions I can remember were like that. The tendency I often observe in this country that everyone wants to be playing all the time can lead to some relentlessly bad music, and bad music is another kind of "breach of etiquette!"

I know from your other writing here that you love Irish music, and I'm sure you didn't intend to advocate the above, but some do seem to value "the lowest common denominator," where everyone can meet in mediocrity, over music of beautiful quality that may at SOME times in the session not include everyone. I think it's because some people just want to be playing, and they get bored listening to others play. This is their loss but when they try to enforce those priorities, I would again say it's yet another "breach of etiquette."

Paul

Yep. I didn't claim otherwise. Neither did Paul.

"Unique" meaning "not duplicated in other kinds of music"? Or "unique" meaning "there's only one style of Irish concertina music"? I'd say the first one is right, but judging from the comments of others as well as my own experience, the second simply isn't true. In fact, I thought that was one of Paul's points.

The word Paul used was "encourage", not "expect". And there are a lot of tunes where the traditional key signature is other than one or two sharps.

Mmmm.. i chose my words badly... As you are right, there absolutely is not one unique style of irish concertina music. That being said, even with the rather distinctive playing of Noel Hill and say Mary McNamara, they still have a certain.. not sure, maybe rhytem in common that stems from their choice of instrument and the keys that are common in irish music. Its kind of like the way that a Billy McComiskey and Paddy O'Brien are both distinctively Irish BC accordion players even though their playing styles and techniques are hugely different. But when Billy picks up a D/C# his style is rather different, in large part because instrument almost demands a different style. Thus, playing tunes normally in D and G in an another key such as C is going to, on an instrument like the anglo lead to a very different style and one that I feel would be somewhat less evocative of the best in Irish concertina music. Of course if you are not playing Irish music knock yourself out

In any case.. I don't know, it just seems rude when you are playing with friends, whether in a private session or a pub session to get them learn tunes in a different than standard key... in Irish Music alone there are thousands of tunes, and I know a number of people who can and do play more than a thousand. When I learn a new tune, I want it to be in a key that is commonly played so that if i drop into a session when I am visiting a new town (say Boston or New York or Chicago, or in the many impromptu sessions at Irish Arts Weeks at the catskills) I have a high likely hood of knowing the tunes in a common key. Should I take valuable practice time relearning tunes in different keys when I could be learning new ones?

Oh yeah, I know there are quite a few tunes in irish music in A (which has 3 sharps) i also know that some keys start getting to be a real challenge technically for box players and flute players, etc. Some less than friendly musicians have occasionaly played D tunes in Eb which is a real bith and a half on a B/C box... though if i had a C/C# box they would be easy. I imagine Eb would give most CG concertina players real problems too....

Are you saying then that Billy's style on the D/C# is "less evocative of the best in Irish"? Because playing any D tune on a C#/D is exactly the same -- in terms of pushes and pulls and which buttons to use -- as playing that same tune in C on a B/C. (The row reversal between D/C# and C#/D is another subtle difference, but surely that alone doesn't change Irish to non-Irish, or even good Irish to bad!)


How is that different from getting them to learn an entirely new tune? Except that it might be easier, since they should already have the tune in their head. For that matter, what's your position on different versions of tunes? Many tunes as commonly played in sessions around here are subtly different from the versions I learned 30 or so years ago, both versions being learned from traditional Irish musicians, but from different Irish musicians. Sometimes the differences make nice harmony; other times they clash, so I adjust to avoid the clashes. Occasionally, we take turns. The same goes for style and tempo: I learned King of the Fairies in a slow, jaunty, hornpipe tempo, and a lot of folks these days seem to play it more quick and even, almost a reel. So when I start it we play it my way, and when they start it we play it their way, and occasionally we'll play it a couple of times at my tempo and then break into their tempo for a couple more and a rousing finish.


Fair enough, but that doesn't mean that playing in a different key is somehow less "Irish". As I thnk Paul indicated, the Irish themselves don't necessarily play a tune in only one key. The slip jig that I learned in Gm as The Old Dutch Churn is in O'Neill's as A Fig for A Kiss, in Em. I learned The Tipsy Sailor in Gm, and I've met a woman who says she learned it -- as The Drunken Sailor -- from Noel Hill in that key, though on my old casette of Noel he seems to be playing it in Bbm, and I've heard others play it in sessions in Em, though Bm would seem to make more sense for flutes, whistles, and pipes. Meanwhile, there have been specific Topics here on Concertina.net regarding particular tunes played in "nonstandard" keys by the likes of Mary McNamara (Shandon Bells) and Jason O'Rourke (The Piper's Despair). Are these individuals or their recordings "less evocative of the best in Irish concertina music"? You're welcome to your own opinion, of course, but I don't think so. Would you consider it a waste of "valuable practice time" to learn to play these tunes the way they have recorded them? I wouldn't. Would they be snubbed if they tried playing even one or two tunes in "uncommon" keys at your local sessions? Not around here! Nor, I suspect, at Paul's old sessions in Boston, and certainly not by the big names at the Catskills week.

But I suspect we really do have a fundamental difference of opinion/attitude here. You ask:I say most emphatically, YES!... except of course that it's up to you what you do.
You say:"Rude" to want to share something that you think is beautiful and musical? I fail to understand how.

You talk of playing, and being able to join in, and avoiding difficulties, and numbers of tunes. While Paul and I both love to play, and enjoy playing together with others in groups large and small, we have been emphasizing the listening and the musical variety that can and does exist in the tradition. There are sessions -- the ones I prefer -- where people enjoy sitting back to listen to a few solos or small subgroups before returning to the all-together melee. And what is considered "rude" in those sessions is not the person who does something different, but the person who displays impatience, disdain, or other disrespect when they do.


Even -- maybe especially -- when I am playing Irish music.

Jim, I am not saying that Billy playing on a D/C# is less evocative of Irish music, but it is quite different from his B/C playing. Rather his playing on D/C# is more evocative of an older style (being that D/C# preceded B/C). Having a D row on a half step box leads to a bouncier style of play for the keys of D/G and A (and their relative minors) than is typical on the same tunes played on a B/C box. further of course, the older D/C# style will lead to a very different style of ornamentation than can be played on a B/C box. Now the key to remember here is that whether one is playing a C#/D, a B/C or a D/C# one is still playing box tunings that either are or were widely accepted amongst Irish box players.

A key here to remember Jim is that I am not talking about learning local variations of a tune, whether those variations are in key or melody, I am talking about taking a tune that most local players and know in a particular key and then asking them to relearn it in a new key because you like it better on your instrument in that key. The key difference between asking them to do this and asking them to learn a new tune is that if they learn a new tune they have a new tune that they can play both locally and potentially in other locations, if they relearn the tune... well they have relearned the tune and likely in a key that would be rather uncommon (really, how many sessions play in the keys of C or F?).

As for style.. well, the style for most instruments in Irish music grows from the limitations of the instrument, particularly when playing within keys that are not native to the instrument. For various reasons, the C/G concertina has been preferred to the D/G even though the latter would have seemed a more natural fit. Playing a D tune in C.. well whether we are talking about a Concertina or a B/C accordion is going to lead to a very different rhytem and ornamentation than one would normally expect from those instruments on that tune.