Hi everyone!
Please be gentle with me as it's my first post.
I have been playing concertina regularly for about a year when I bought an Andrew Norman 30 key C/G anglo. Previously I had been messing about with a cheap old german anglo which is a family handme down of great age, and weird tuning (it says Dulcet on it).
I have been after a "proper" concertina for the last twenty years since I saw Father Kenneth Loveless at the local folk club playing Mr Kimber's concertina - and he let me play it (for about 10 seconds!)
Anyway to get on to my question I always wanted a C/G as that to me is the "authentic" anglo tuning. However to play along to morris dancing in the right octave you need to play "across the rows" (so that you have your left hand largely free to play bass).
Does anyone else do this? And if you do, how do you then develop your bass harmony?
Also how did Kimber and Father Ken and the others do it? Was Morris music played in C in their day?
thanks (in anticipation of your help),
Peter
Full Version: Morris Music On A C/g Anglo
No Fair! You got to PLAY William Kimbers concertina!
I'm far from an expert, but I play Morris tunes on my C/G. Because I play solo for Morris dancers it doesn't matter what key I play the tunes in. I learn tunes by ear I just sound them out in what ever key they seem to fit and has the most comfortable fingering and easiest accompaniment. However, this may not work if you play with other musicians that are playing tunes in the "right" key.
I'm self taught and have always played across the rows, so I'll be interested to hear what other Morris musicians have to say.
Kimber played for Headington, and according to the Bacon Book most of the Headington tunes are in D and A. . . a few in G and a few F. Was his concertina a C/G ??
I'm far from an expert, but I play Morris tunes on my C/G. Because I play solo for Morris dancers it doesn't matter what key I play the tunes in. I learn tunes by ear I just sound them out in what ever key they seem to fit and has the most comfortable fingering and easiest accompaniment. However, this may not work if you play with other musicians that are playing tunes in the "right" key.
I'm self taught and have always played across the rows, so I'll be interested to hear what other Morris musicians have to say.
Kimber played for Headington, and according to the Bacon Book most of the Headington tunes are in D and A. . . a few in G and a few F. Was his concertina a C/G ??
No, you can play in C to your heart's content -- if you play solo.
Initially, I learned my side's tunes in G because I thought it was a rigid rule: only in G. But after consulting several senior squeezers, I learned that it's just a convention catering to the melodeon players.
In fact, getting the right sound is very hard on a C/G if you play in G, cross -row. It sounds much better in C, gives you many more chord possibilities, etc.
I learned Trunkles in G, but when I switched to C, it sounded much more "authentic," had much more punch and was more fun to play. Try it and you'll see what I mean.
My rule: mostly in C when I play solo. But I know most of our tunes in G for those occasional times when some stray BA player joins in. I've played with plenty of other C/G players in C at Morris events (I was playing Monk's March in C last year when I thought my concertina had grown some extra reeds; looked around, and another C/G player had joined in. Sounded great)
And, of course, you need to know the mass dance tunes in G, because it's gonna sound funny if you play Highland Mary in C when everybody else is in G.
Initially, I learned my side's tunes in G because I thought it was a rigid rule: only in G. But after consulting several senior squeezers, I learned that it's just a convention catering to the melodeon players.
In fact, getting the right sound is very hard on a C/G if you play in G, cross -row. It sounds much better in C, gives you many more chord possibilities, etc.
I learned Trunkles in G, but when I switched to C, it sounded much more "authentic," had much more punch and was more fun to play. Try it and you'll see what I mean.
My rule: mostly in C when I play solo. But I know most of our tunes in G for those occasional times when some stray BA player joins in. I've played with plenty of other C/G players in C at Morris events (I was playing Monk's March in C last year when I thought my concertina had grown some extra reeds; looked around, and another C/G player had joined in. Sounded great)
And, of course, you need to know the mass dance tunes in G, because it's gonna sound funny if you play Highland Mary in C when everybody else is in G.
QUOTE(Peter Brook @ Apr 29 2004, 02:15 PM)
...to play along to morris dancing in the right octave you need to play "across the rows" (so that you have your left hand largely free to play bass).
I don't recall anyone saying that it's wrong to play across the rows for Morris.
QUOTE
Also how did Kimber and Father Ken and the others do it? Was Morris music played in C in their day?
How did WK do it? You should get a copy of the Absolutely Classic CD of his playing (and reminiscences), produced by EFDSS, and listen to it.
As for keys, I just listened to a few tracks from the CD, and they all seem to be in either C or G, whichever is needed to keep the entire melody in the right hiand.
QUOTE(Lisa Wirth @ Apr 29 2004, 02:32 PM)
Kimber played for Headington, and according to the Bacon Book most of the Headington tunes are in D and A. . . a few in G and a few F.
I'm pretty sure that WK had long since stopped playing for Headington by the time the Bacon book was put together. If the Headington musician Bacon collected from was a fiddler, that would probably account for the preponderance of D and A, with other keys on particular tunes.
QUOTE
Was his concertina a C/G ??
I believe so. It certainly seems to be that way on the CD.
Thanks for all your replies.
Looking back on it I still find it hard to believe that Father Ken let me even breathe on William Kimber's concertina - I guess I was too young to appreciate it at the time. Even John Kirkpatrick hasn't had the privilege (yet).
I am keen not to get stuck in a rut on the concertina. I enjoy playing across the rows (and up and down) but I'd like to add some punch with the occasional bass note or notes. I just wondered if anyone had a method of doing this or if it was just a trial and error/practice thing. When I play for morris we have a small "band" comprising myself on concertina, a melodeon, two violins and a serpent! So I have to play in G or D when with this group. (We dance mainly Adderbury, Fieldtown and Bampton tradition).
Also I appreciate that people are all around the globe but is anyone going to concertinas anonymous on Monday 3rd may in Lewes (East Sussex)?
Looking back on it I still find it hard to believe that Father Ken let me even breathe on William Kimber's concertina - I guess I was too young to appreciate it at the time. Even John Kirkpatrick hasn't had the privilege (yet).
I am keen not to get stuck in a rut on the concertina. I enjoy playing across the rows (and up and down) but I'd like to add some punch with the occasional bass note or notes. I just wondered if anyone had a method of doing this or if it was just a trial and error/practice thing. When I play for morris we have a small "band" comprising myself on concertina, a melodeon, two violins and a serpent! So I have to play in G or D when with this group. (We dance mainly Adderbury, Fieldtown and Bampton tradition).
Also I appreciate that people are all around the globe but is anyone going to concertinas anonymous on Monday 3rd may in Lewes (East Sussex)?
As a youth I also played on Kimbers concertina.....C / G......I then got Father Ken to play my Jeffries to osmotically (or maybe holisically) connect me to Kimber.!!
As Jim L. says,he does anything he can to keep the tune wholly in the right hand,not only switching to G but also sometimes playing a note an octave higher mid-tune.
The effect of this ,to MY ear, is to drive the dance with the left hand.Listen to the Classic Kimber Cd track where he's recorded outside a pub.You can hardly here the melody over the bells etc,but you DO hear the chords.
Where are you located , Peter , there's got to be someone around to help you(remember the ICA do a great mentoring service)
regs Robin
Remember,the keys noted in Bacon need not concern you at all.If your instrument only plays in H major. That's what you do and that's authenic
As Jim L. says,he does anything he can to keep the tune wholly in the right hand,not only switching to G but also sometimes playing a note an octave higher mid-tune.
The effect of this ,to MY ear, is to drive the dance with the left hand.Listen to the Classic Kimber Cd track where he's recorded outside a pub.You can hardly here the melody over the bells etc,but you DO hear the chords.
Where are you located , Peter , there's got to be someone around to help you(remember the ICA do a great mentoring service)
regs Robin
Remember,the keys noted in Bacon need not concern you at all.If your instrument only plays in H major. That's what you do and that's authenic
I think it is fair to say that the preponderance of tunes in G, D and E min in Morris is wholly driven by melodeon players. If you look in Bacon or Sharp there are many more keys used and I surmise it would have depended on the instrument the collectee was playing when the collector collected.
My team consists mostly of English concertina players so we do use other keys, sometimes juts to annoy passing melodeon players, my particular favourite is Cuckoo's Nest Sherborne in G Min so much better than the normal E Min.
ps. At last weeks practice, near the end of the practice season so everyone turned up, we had 12 dancers, 1 English Treble, 1 English Baritone, 1 English Bass, 1 Norman Anglo (C/G), 2 melodeons, 1 Saxophone, 1 Eb Bass. Touch of the never mind the quality feel the width music.
My team consists mostly of English concertina players so we do use other keys, sometimes juts to annoy passing melodeon players, my particular favourite is Cuckoo's Nest Sherborne in G Min so much better than the normal E Min.
ps. At last weeks practice, near the end of the practice season so everyone turned up, we had 12 dancers, 1 English Treble, 1 English Baritone, 1 English Bass, 1 Norman Anglo (C/G), 2 melodeons, 1 Saxophone, 1 Eb Bass. Touch of the never mind the quality feel the width music.
Hello Peter,
"Dulcet" was originally a trade mark of the London musical instrument importers/distributers Barnett Samuel, 1861-1928 (when the company became the Decca Gramophone Co. Ltd.), and continued to be used by Rose Morris & Co. Ltd., who bought the musical instrument part of the business.
Anglos were mainly built in C/G (giving the third key D), Bb/F (third key C) and Ab/Eb (third key Bb), in that order. The C/G might be described as the "standard anglo", but they all have their uses, and some of us would contend that the Bb/F is the best for solo playing, still having much of the "bite" of a C/G, but also more of the richness of the Ab/Eb, the latter having been used mainly by the Salvation Army (they were made to play in the same keys as brass instruments). The G/D system was virtually unheard of, and original G/D-tuned anglos are exceedingly rare, the vast majority of them having been converted (usually from Ab/Eb) in recent years.
Morris (and other forms of folk dance music) was played in whatever keys suited the instruments being used, most of the old free reed ones being pitched in C, though the tunes were often written down from the playing of fiddle, or tabor-pipe, players, so they tend to be notated for instruments pitched in D.
You will find, for example, that the traditional East-Anglian melodeon players have always played in C. I bought several instruments, only last year, that had belonged to one of them (the late Cyril Stannard, from Suffolk), who had single-row C's, and double-row G/C, C/F, C/C# and B/C boxes (though he also had a "new-fangled", seemingly unused, D/G), but it was always the C-row that had got all the playing. Fiddle players would simply tune down a tone, and play in C (using D fingering), just as they still do in Cajun music.
The playing of G/D concertinas, and D/G melodeons, is a relatively new, post-war, development. The first, commercially made, D/G accordions were built by Hagstrom (who set up a factory in Sunderland, after WWII), for the English Folk Dance and Song Society, in !949. The very first Hohner D/G's only appeared in the early 1950's. The system was so new that a 1957 article in English Dance & Song, "What you can do with the melodeon", doesn't even mention it !
It may seem like heresy to suggest it today, but maybe the best solution would be to persuade melodeon players to switch back to playing G/C boxes ? The sound of a C/G anglo, played with a G/C melodeon, is much brighter and more lively, and the octave difference, between the two G rows, can sound very effective (the G of the G/C melodeon being one octave lower, rather than the "squeaky" high G of the D/G).
Cheers !
QUOTE(Peter Brook @ Apr 29 2004, 01:15 PM)
Previously I had been messing about with a cheap old german anglo which is a family handme down of great age, and weird tuning (it says Dulcet on it).
"Dulcet" was originally a trade mark of the London musical instrument importers/distributers Barnett Samuel, 1861-1928 (when the company became the Decca Gramophone Co. Ltd.), and continued to be used by Rose Morris & Co. Ltd., who bought the musical instrument part of the business.
QUOTE
Anyway to get on to my question I always wanted a C/G as that to me is the "authentic" anglo tuning.
Anglos were mainly built in C/G (giving the third key D), Bb/F (third key C) and Ab/Eb (third key Bb), in that order. The C/G might be described as the "standard anglo", but they all have their uses, and some of us would contend that the Bb/F is the best for solo playing, still having much of the "bite" of a C/G, but also more of the richness of the Ab/Eb, the latter having been used mainly by the Salvation Army (they were made to play in the same keys as brass instruments). The G/D system was virtually unheard of, and original G/D-tuned anglos are exceedingly rare, the vast majority of them having been converted (usually from Ab/Eb) in recent years.
QUOTE
... how did Kimber and Father Ken and the others do it? Was Morris music played in C in their day?
Morris (and other forms of folk dance music) was played in whatever keys suited the instruments being used, most of the old free reed ones being pitched in C, though the tunes were often written down from the playing of fiddle, or tabor-pipe, players, so they tend to be notated for instruments pitched in D.
You will find, for example, that the traditional East-Anglian melodeon players have always played in C. I bought several instruments, only last year, that had belonged to one of them (the late Cyril Stannard, from Suffolk), who had single-row C's, and double-row G/C, C/F, C/C# and B/C boxes (though he also had a "new-fangled", seemingly unused, D/G), but it was always the C-row that had got all the playing. Fiddle players would simply tune down a tone, and play in C (using D fingering), just as they still do in Cajun music.
The playing of G/D concertinas, and D/G melodeons, is a relatively new, post-war, development. The first, commercially made, D/G accordions were built by Hagstrom (who set up a factory in Sunderland, after WWII), for the English Folk Dance and Song Society, in !949. The very first Hohner D/G's only appeared in the early 1950's. The system was so new that a 1957 article in English Dance & Song, "What you can do with the melodeon", doesn't even mention it !
QUOTE
... to play along to morris dancing in the right octave you need to play "across the rows" (so that you have your left hand largely free to play bass).
It may seem like heresy to suggest it today, but maybe the best solution would be to persuade melodeon players to switch back to playing G/C boxes ? The sound of a C/G anglo, played with a G/C melodeon, is much brighter and more lively, and the octave difference, between the two G rows, can sound very effective (the G of the G/C melodeon being one octave lower, rather than the "squeaky" high G of the D/G).
Cheers !
Hi Stephen......The sharing of concertina information is what I enjoy most about this web site.
I had been told that most anglos were tuned in flat keys as ,certainly in the North of England,there was a lot of brass band music available . The C/G would have been less common....is that wrong ? It would be interesting to know the proportions of keys made.Would there be a large enough sample of C.net members to extrapolate ? Any statistisitions out there?
Could you comment on the relationship of Concertina bands to Brass bands.Has any work been done or published on concertina bands ? Were concertinas cheaper than brass instruments ?
I'm hoping to be in agreement with your comments on the Bflat/F anglo.I've played both my Jeffries for Morris.The G on the C/G I don't like.....too high....but the G on the G/D is too mellow.....often the dancers can't hear it adequately over crowd/traffic noises.
Soon (?) I should be getting a Bflat / F . I've played one before(not for Morris) and it seems to me to be an ideal key and not a compromise between the two.I can't quite tell you why,but the flat key seems to suit the anglo perfectly.
I hope to have it mean tone tuned....but that's a subject for another post closer the time of arrival !!
Regards Robin
I had been told that most anglos were tuned in flat keys as ,certainly in the North of England,there was a lot of brass band music available . The C/G would have been less common....is that wrong ? It would be interesting to know the proportions of keys made.Would there be a large enough sample of C.net members to extrapolate ? Any statistisitions out there?
Could you comment on the relationship of Concertina bands to Brass bands.Has any work been done or published on concertina bands ? Were concertinas cheaper than brass instruments ?
I'm hoping to be in agreement with your comments on the Bflat/F anglo.I've played both my Jeffries for Morris.The G on the C/G I don't like.....too high....but the G on the G/D is too mellow.....often the dancers can't hear it adequately over crowd/traffic noises.
Soon (?) I should be getting a Bflat / F . I've played one before(not for Morris) and it seems to me to be an ideal key and not a compromise between the two.I can't quite tell you why,but the flat key seems to suit the anglo perfectly.
I hope to have it mean tone tuned....but that's a subject for another post closer the time of arrival !!
Regards Robin
QUOTE(Stephen Chambers @ Apr 29 2004, 01:00 PM)
It may seem like heresy to suggest it today, but maybe the best solution would be to persuade melodeon players to switch back to playing G/C boxes ?
Best of luck! Melodeon players make anglo players look adventurous!
Chris
PS Not disparaging the C/G in any way (the C/G is right for my singing voice) but, speaking for myself, personally, in my own opinion, I think the G/D is rather nice, actually.
Another compromise would be for melodion players to stop using the bass so much in Morris and for them to get cross-fingering to get out of G and D.
Shock... Horror ... I have heard a vicious, but unfounded rumour that they are even making new-fangled melodions with ACCIDENTALS of all things!!. Whatever next?
I have never had problems keeping up with the best morris bands on my C/G, and if you play in octaves using both sides, a C/G comes into its own then, as the loudest instrument in the band (especially if metal ended and/or a Jeffries).
Shock... Horror ... I have heard a vicious, but unfounded rumour that they are even making new-fangled melodions with ACCIDENTALS of all things!!. Whatever next?
I have never had problems keeping up with the best morris bands on my C/G, and if you play in octaves using both sides, a C/G comes into its own then, as the loudest instrument in the band (especially if metal ended and/or a Jeffries).
QUOTE(geoffwright @ May 3 2004, 04:46 PM)
Shock... Horror ... I have heard a vicious, but unfounded rumour that they are even making new-fangled melodions with ACCIDENTALS of all things!!. Whatever next?
Deliberate accidentals? That is shocking!
My teammates get annoyed when I play those accidental notes.
Hey Jim,
Steve Schneider (or Shneider, I forget) anyway, he calls them alternative notes. I like that.
Helen
Steve Schneider (or Shneider, I forget) anyway, he calls them alternative notes. I like that.
Helen
QUOTE(Helen @ May 4 2004, 12:33 AM)
[Re accidentals, or "accidentals"] Steve Schneider (or Shneider, I forget) anyway, he calls them alternative notes. I like that.
I especially like the line I heard years ago: "Them thar's what Louis Killen calls 'variations'!"
Oh, I like that too.
thanks Geoff,
that is what I have decided to do next in my practice (I did it for the first time on Sunday) - play octaves of the morris tunes.
I think once I am reasonably competent at playing in octaves, I should be able to shove the extra harmonising note in here and there.
Norman Anglos have a very fast action and have a bright loud tone so I can usually be heard above the other instuments.
cheers,
Peter
that is what I have decided to do next in my practice (I did it for the first time on Sunday) - play octaves of the morris tunes.
I think once I am reasonably competent at playing in octaves, I should be able to shove the extra harmonising note in here and there.
Norman Anglos have a very fast action and have a bright loud tone so I can usually be heard above the other instuments.
cheers,
Peter
For John o' Gaunt Morris men we normally play tunes in G, with an occasonal one in D. We have a set of musicians with no two instruments alike, G/D melodian, B/C melodian, extended treble English, G/D, Bb/F or C/G Anglo (Me), fiddle, drum, Tuba and Bass Trombone. We also have another English player and another melodian player amongst the dancers.
I mainly play the G/D but on occasions the C/G is better, still playing in G. It depends on how the tune fits within the scale, sometimes the overall sound is better with the higher octave.
I drop hints about how melodian chords usually sound better if kept stacatto but they are not always heeded!
If things get too muzzy I up the volume on the staccato on the Anglo.
We do both North-west and Cotwold, by the way.
For a couple of dances, the Wyresdale arse-kicking dance (also known as Dolphinholme Old man's dance and three-legged dance) for example, we just use a recorder with Anglo playing chords.
Robin Madge
I mainly play the G/D but on occasions the C/G is better, still playing in G. It depends on how the tune fits within the scale, sometimes the overall sound is better with the higher octave.
I drop hints about how melodian chords usually sound better if kept stacatto but they are not always heeded!
If things get too muzzy I up the volume on the staccato on the Anglo.
We do both North-west and Cotwold, by the way.
For a couple of dances, the Wyresdale arse-kicking dance (also known as Dolphinholme Old man's dance and three-legged dance) for example, we just use a recorder with Anglo playing chords.
Robin Madge
QUOTE(Robin Madge @ May 5 2004, 12:24 PM)
For a couple of dances, ... we just use a recorder with Anglo playing chords.
Chords? We don't need no steenking chords!
Ah, for the days when it was thought that more than one musician at a time (for Cotswold Morris) would distract from the dance and even hinder the musician's ability to tailor the music to the dancers' needs.
When you have a band, the dancers dance to the music. When you have a soloist, the musician plays for the dancers. One viewpont, anyway.
(Of course, a single musician could be either chordless or eclectic... fiddle, flute, concertina, melodeon, pipe-and-tabor, saxophone, electric guitar, etc.)
Well Jim that is another "can of worms".
Purists in this country maintain that only one musician should play to cotswold morris dancers so that the music can be tailored to fit what the dancers are doing.
However in practice and partly due to North West Morris traditions of having a brass band to accompany, most sides typically have upwards of three musicians.
On May day we had five musicians, and as more and more alcohol was consumed the less we played together, which resulted in several "crashes" where we all had to stop because no one was sure where they were in the tune. It doesn't seem to be so much of a problem when playing inside.
Of course if it were down to me only concertinas would be allowed!
Purists in this country maintain that only one musician should play to cotswold morris dancers so that the music can be tailored to fit what the dancers are doing.
However in practice and partly due to North West Morris traditions of having a brass band to accompany, most sides typically have upwards of three musicians.
On May day we had five musicians, and as more and more alcohol was consumed the less we played together, which resulted in several "crashes" where we all had to stop because no one was sure where they were in the tune. It doesn't seem to be so much of a problem when playing inside.
Of course if it were down to me only concertinas would be allowed!
A few English morris dance musician traditions I've noticed over the years:
Piano accordion players - play too fast.
Melodeon players - start of at right speed, then get faster.
Fiddle players - spend ten minutes tuning up before each dance.
More than one musician - more than one version of the same tune at the same time.
Alcohol - makes all of the above worse, but the dancers are past caring.
Piano accordion players - play too fast.
Melodeon players - start of at right speed, then get faster.
Fiddle players - spend ten minutes tuning up before each dance.
More than one musician - more than one version of the same tune at the same time.
Alcohol - makes all of the above worse, but the dancers are past caring.
QUOTE(Peter Brook @ May 5 2004, 02:52 PM)
Of course if it were down to me only concertinas would be allowed!
Even to a concertina fanatic like me, that sounds rather boring.
... I like my music to be about music, not about dominance.
QUOTE(premo @ May 5 2004, 03:38 PM)
A few English morris dance musician traditions I've noticed over the years:
Piano accordion players - play too fast.
Melodeon players - start of at right speed, then get faster.
Fiddle players - spend ten minutes tuning up before each dance.
More than one musician - more than one version of the same tune at the same time.
Alcohol - makes all of the above worse, but the dancers are past caring.
Piano accordion players - play too fast.
Melodeon players - start of at right speed, then get faster.
Fiddle players - spend ten minutes tuning up before each dance.
More than one musician - more than one version of the same tune at the same time.
Alcohol - makes all of the above worse, but the dancers are past caring.
But you didn't tell us which village each of these traditions comes from.
QUOTE(Robin Madge @ May 5 2004, 12:24 PM)
We have a set of musicians with no two instruments alike, G/D melodian, B/C melodian, extended treble English, G/D, Bb/F or C/G Anglo (Me), fiddle, drum, Tuba and Bass Trombone.
I hope the tuba and bass trombone get to take the melody line from time to time.
Silly me! They are (in order)
Much Bassnotes
Lesser Bassnotes
Outoftuning
Much Outoftuning
Much Drinking in the Pub
Much Bassnotes
Lesser Bassnotes
Outoftuning
Much Outoftuning
Much Drinking in the Pub
QUOTE(JimLucas @ May 5 2004, 09:49 AM)
QUOTE(Peter Brook @ May 5 2004, 02:52 PM)
Of course if it were down to me only concertinas would be allowed!
Even to a concertina fanatic like me, that sounds rather boring.
... I like my music to be about music, not about dominance.
Well I agree with you actually. In this country though there are so many melodeons and violins that they get very annoying - especially when the two violinists in my side are having a race with each other and the melodeon player is deaf!
I don't want to blast anyone away. In fact I would rather we played slower, quieter and all together, to produce something musicaly appealing and supports the main event - ie the dancing.
QUOTE(premo @ May 5 2004, 03:57 PM)
They are (in order)
Much Bassnotes
Lesser Bassnotes
Outoftuning
Much Outoftuning
Much Drinking in the Pub
Much Bassnotes
Lesser Bassnotes
Outoftuning
Much Outoftuning
Much Drinking in the Pub
Haven't you missed out Passed Out Under Which Tap?
... (I had some other ideas for village/tradition names, but this is a family forum.
)
QUOTE(Chris Timson @ May 2 2004, 07:43 PM)
... speaking for myself, personally, in my own opinion, I think the G/D is rather nice, actually.
I couldn't agree with you more on that Chris, in fact the only anglo that I was ever "deeply in lust" over was Paul Davies' 38-key, mean-tone tuned, Praed Street, C. Jeffries G/D. I seem to recall that it was Fred Kilroy's "Best", and it is absolutely gorgeous !
However the D/G can never have the "ring", the "bite" and the "lift" of the C/G, for dance playing (especially outdoors), and does not have such a long tradition of use in that context. I would also much prefer the low G row of the G/C melodeon, to the (often unpleasant) high one of the D/G. G was always the lowest key that melodeons and harmonicas were built in, and F was the highest, not without reason.
Mention of Ken Loveless and Morris music reminds me to tell you about a cassette still available:
MR-1 Fr.Kenneth Loveless
See http://www.argonet.co.uk/homepages/johnmaher/Ring/Shop.htm
I prefer the old pitch Bb/F played in Bb - when you start playing for a dance, no one else ever seems to try to join in and distract you (I wonder why?) and you can concentrate on the dancers.
MR-1 Fr.Kenneth Loveless
See http://www.argonet.co.uk/homepages/johnmaher/Ring/Shop.htm
I prefer the old pitch Bb/F played in Bb - when you start playing for a dance, no one else ever seems to try to join in and distract you (I wonder why?) and you can concentrate on the dancers.
QUOTE(wes williams @ May 8 2004, 12:53 AM)
I prefer the old pitch Bb/F played in Bb ...
Now that is absolutely the best pitch for an anglo ! It still has a good "ring", but also a lovely richness.
You remind me of Paul Davies' other truly wonderful C. Jeffries, also a 38-key, mean-tone, Praed Street one. He left me the money to buy it "blind" for him, as he was going off on a trip, and he asked me to repitch it to C/G, ready for when he got back. However, it was so good that I didn't want to change it, and when he returned and played it, he was very pleased that I had not gone ahead with the retuning, it was absolutely perfect just the way it was.
He called it his "street box", and he bought his house in Worthing busking with that concertina !
QUOTE
- when you start playing for a dance, no one else ever seems to try to join in and distract you (I wonder why?) and you can concentrate on the dancers.
Just you wait, one of these days somebody is going to sneak up on you with an old, high-pitch, cornet !
QUOTE(Stephen Chambers @ May 8 2004, 06:12 AM)
QUOTE(Wes)
- when you start playing for a dance, no one else ever seems to try to join in and distract you (I wonder why?) and you can concentrate on the dancers.
Just you wait, one of these days somebody is going to sneak up on you with an old, high-pitch, cornet !I would love to do that!
(I wouldn't even have to learn to "transpose", since my trumpet is in C.
)Stephen, do you know where I could get one?
Stephen,
As you probably know, another occasional contributor to this forum now owns at least one of the Jeffries concertinas you mentioned and I have heard a tape of him playing it. It really is a beautiful sounding instrument, although it may have been retuned since you heard it.
I also have a special appreciation for high-pitch Bb/F anglos. It is really a shame that so few are left in their original keys and pitch. If I am not mistaken, the Free Reed recording of John Kelly, sr. features him playing one in this key, possibly loaned to him for the recording.
In telephone conversation with me, the late Paul Davies also described his most original Jeffries anglos as being tuned "in mean-tone." As has been discussed in this Forum, it is pretty well-known that the early english concertinas were tuned in meantone. Of course, the term "mean-tone" really refers to a whole family of temperaments (e.g., 1/4 comma, 1/6 comma, "irregular meantone temperaments," etc. -- see "Tuning" by Jorgenson, among many excellent references). However, (as I think you and I discussed on the phone a few years back) I have seen quite a bit of evidence that at least some Jeffries anglos (as well as original anglos by Jones, John Crabb, etc.) were tuned to a much more unique system than any mean-tone tuning that I have seen documented for keyboard instruments, one that uniquely fits with the note layout of the anglo and its options for harmony, and that implies a playing style a little different from that usually used today. I am trying to finish a short, preliminary paper on my observations of the 19th century anglos I have been able to study that retain mostly original reedwork. I welcome any relevant information from you or other concertina tuners and historians. I don't want to re-invent the wheel if others have done this work (of documenting the ingenuity of the 19th century anglo tuners in London), and of course I will acknowledge all the help I receive.
Paul
As you probably know, another occasional contributor to this forum now owns at least one of the Jeffries concertinas you mentioned and I have heard a tape of him playing it. It really is a beautiful sounding instrument, although it may have been retuned since you heard it.
I also have a special appreciation for high-pitch Bb/F anglos. It is really a shame that so few are left in their original keys and pitch. If I am not mistaken, the Free Reed recording of John Kelly, sr. features him playing one in this key, possibly loaned to him for the recording.
In telephone conversation with me, the late Paul Davies also described his most original Jeffries anglos as being tuned "in mean-tone." As has been discussed in this Forum, it is pretty well-known that the early english concertinas were tuned in meantone. Of course, the term "mean-tone" really refers to a whole family of temperaments (e.g., 1/4 comma, 1/6 comma, "irregular meantone temperaments," etc. -- see "Tuning" by Jorgenson, among many excellent references). However, (as I think you and I discussed on the phone a few years back) I have seen quite a bit of evidence that at least some Jeffries anglos (as well as original anglos by Jones, John Crabb, etc.) were tuned to a much more unique system than any mean-tone tuning that I have seen documented for keyboard instruments, one that uniquely fits with the note layout of the anglo and its options for harmony, and that implies a playing style a little different from that usually used today. I am trying to finish a short, preliminary paper on my observations of the 19th century anglos I have been able to study that retain mostly original reedwork. I welcome any relevant information from you or other concertina tuners and historians. I don't want to re-invent the wheel if others have done this work (of documenting the ingenuity of the 19th century anglo tuners in London), and of course I will acknowledge all the help I receive.
Paul
Paul,
Actually, I got an email from him this morning, and it seems he owns the pair of them now - the lucky b***! (He deserves them !)
Then again, there wouldn't be so many C/G's around today if they hadn't been converted, and its nothing new, Jeffries themselves were doing it 100 years ago too ! As for pitch, there is a wonderful "ring" off the old high pitch ("Old Philharmonic"), that A=440 Hz doesn't have, but in Jeffries' time there were four different pitch standards in England alone, never mind anywhere else, we really did need to establish an international "concert pitch" (recommended only as late as 1939, though talked about for many years previously).
In later years, I sold a Bb/F Jeffries to John Kelly (not the one on the record), and always thought the rich sound of it suited the way he played much better than his aluminium-ended Crabb did. Of course John came from a generation of Irish concertina players who had originally played German concertinas (which I know you also like), and I loved his old style on one of those !
I think that I should still have charts of the tuning of at least one of Paul's high-pitch boxes, speak to me after I have moved, I'm right in the middle of it at the moment. I don't know if Jorgenson has a name for it, though his book is certainly the "bible" of the subject (and about as weighty as many a Family Bible), but there were lots of different "systems" of temperament, maybe he will have to start listing "Jeffries tuning" ?
QUOTE(Paul Groff @ May 8 2004, 08:55 AM)
Stephen,
As you probably know, another occasional contributor to this forum now owns at least one of the Jeffries concertinas you mentioned and I have heard a tape of him playing it. It really is a beautiful sounding instrument ...
As you probably know, another occasional contributor to this forum now owns at least one of the Jeffries concertinas you mentioned and I have heard a tape of him playing it. It really is a beautiful sounding instrument ...
Actually, I got an email from him this morning, and it seems he owns the pair of them now - the lucky b***! (He deserves them !)
QUOTE
I also have a special appreciation for high-pitch Bb/F anglos. It is really a shame that so few are left in their original keys and pitch.
Then again, there wouldn't be so many C/G's around today if they hadn't been converted, and its nothing new, Jeffries themselves were doing it 100 years ago too ! As for pitch, there is a wonderful "ring" off the old high pitch ("Old Philharmonic"), that A=440 Hz doesn't have, but in Jeffries' time there were four different pitch standards in England alone, never mind anywhere else, we really did need to establish an international "concert pitch" (recommended only as late as 1939, though talked about for many years previously).
QUOTE
If I am not mistaken, the Free Reed recording of John Kelly, sr. features him playing one in this key, possibly loaned to him for the recording.
In later years, I sold a Bb/F Jeffries to John Kelly (not the one on the record), and always thought the rich sound of it suited the way he played much better than his aluminium-ended Crabb did. Of course John came from a generation of Irish concertina players who had originally played German concertinas (which I know you also like), and I loved his old style on one of those !
QUOTE
... (as I think you and I discussed on the phone a few years back) I have seen quite a bit of evidence that at least some Jeffries anglos (as well as original anglos by Jones, John Crabb, etc.) were tuned to a much more unique system than any mean-tone tuning that I have seen documented for keyboard instruments, ... I welcome any relevant information from you or other concertina tuners and historians.
I think that I should still have charts of the tuning of at least one of Paul's high-pitch boxes, speak to me after I have moved, I'm right in the middle of it at the moment. I don't know if Jorgenson has a name for it, though his book is certainly the "bible" of the subject (and about as weighty as many a Family Bible), but there were lots of different "systems" of temperament, maybe he will have to start listing "Jeffries tuning" ?
Stephen,
Many thanks, that chart would be extremely helpful to me. Other contributors to this Forum have also helped, and offered to help. No project of this type can be untaken single-handedly, and I hope if I can come up with a discussion worth publishing it will in turn be helpful to others with an interest in the anglo. It sometimes seems as though I am in a race with those hurrying to repitch old instruments though I agree with you that it is easy to see why the owners of these want this done. I did most of my learning on repitched instruments, including one Bb/F Jeffries that had been pitched up to C/G the week before I bought it. This type of restoration (once more common than now, I think) does produce an instrument more easily playable with others, but often at a sacrifice to its own quality and originality.
In a way, I am a *little* less worried about this loss of historical information, now that I am gaining confidence that I am learning the exact temperaments intended by the original tuners of the old anglos, and the "performance rationale" for each deviation from what our ears (educated in the 20th century and later) hear as "properly tuned." At this point, I could tune a brand-new concertina to any of the original temperaments I have inferred from study of original anglos by Jones, Jeffries, and John Crabb, and -- more important -- weigh the pros and cons of each for different styles of playing (especially harmonization). Of course, given the changes over time in even the most original reeds, my inferences are subject to error so increasing the sample size is very important.
I do think the tunings and temperaments developed by the London anglo makers are unusual and will be found very interesting by students of temperament like Mr. Jorgenson. While they are optimized for the anglo-chromatic concertina, as played in certain styles, they should be included in the record of historical temperaments and might have some application for other instruments.
Unfortunately, concertinas (in general) are somewhat marginalized in most discussions of musical instrument history (organology). But in the history of temperament, Mr. Jones, Mr. Crabb,. et al. might deserve a much more prominent place, since the evolution of the anglo allowed a redefinition of some ancient problems that constrained the quality of harmony in keyboard instruments such as organ and piano.
Paul
Many thanks, that chart would be extremely helpful to me. Other contributors to this Forum have also helped, and offered to help. No project of this type can be untaken single-handedly, and I hope if I can come up with a discussion worth publishing it will in turn be helpful to others with an interest in the anglo. It sometimes seems as though I am in a race with those hurrying to repitch old instruments though I agree with you that it is easy to see why the owners of these want this done. I did most of my learning on repitched instruments, including one Bb/F Jeffries that had been pitched up to C/G the week before I bought it. This type of restoration (once more common than now, I think) does produce an instrument more easily playable with others, but often at a sacrifice to its own quality and originality.
In a way, I am a *little* less worried about this loss of historical information, now that I am gaining confidence that I am learning the exact temperaments intended by the original tuners of the old anglos, and the "performance rationale" for each deviation from what our ears (educated in the 20th century and later) hear as "properly tuned." At this point, I could tune a brand-new concertina to any of the original temperaments I have inferred from study of original anglos by Jones, Jeffries, and John Crabb, and -- more important -- weigh the pros and cons of each for different styles of playing (especially harmonization). Of course, given the changes over time in even the most original reeds, my inferences are subject to error so increasing the sample size is very important.
I do think the tunings and temperaments developed by the London anglo makers are unusual and will be found very interesting by students of temperament like Mr. Jorgenson. While they are optimized for the anglo-chromatic concertina, as played in certain styles, they should be included in the record of historical temperaments and might have some application for other instruments.
Unfortunately, concertinas (in general) are somewhat marginalized in most discussions of musical instrument history (organology). But in the history of temperament, Mr. Jones, Mr. Crabb,. et al. might deserve a much more prominent place, since the evolution of the anglo allowed a redefinition of some ancient problems that constrained the quality of harmony in keyboard instruments such as organ and piano.
Paul
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