68 replies to this topic

[SteveS]

Copyright for this was increased some years ago but is still only 70 years and that has run out.

Ian

70 years from the date of the death of the author, not date of publication.

Steve

[Hereward]

70 years from the date of the death of the author, not date of publication.

Steve

You are right and the copyright might well still be valid therefore.

Ian

[P Carr]

I've downloaded it and had a look. Even though it's not intended for EC, there's still a lot to be learned. And some of the psalms, played in harmony just on treble clef, are delightful. Plus the exercises still have relevance... I shall work my way through it in time. Thanks!

[Dieppe]

I've downloaded it and had a look. Even though it's not intended for EC, there's still a lot to be learned. And some of the psalms, played in harmony just on treble clef, are delightful. Plus the exercises still have relevance... I shall work my way through it in time. Thanks!

On pages 10 and 11 they have the layout for the "Triumph Concertina". (Does it go around saying things like accordions are for him to "poop on"? Okay maybe 2 people will get that joke. )

Anyway it's like the English layout got fatter by a column. A duet, is it? Does it have enough sharps and flats to be fully chromatic?

---
Patrick

[JimLucas]

I've downloaded it and had a look. Even though it's not intended for EC, there's still a lot to be learned. And some of the psalms, played in harmony just on treble clef, are delightful. Plus the exercises still have relevance... I shall work my way through it in time. Thanks!

On pages 10 and 11 they have the layout for the "Triumph Concertina".

Well, yeah. That's what the entire book is about.
"Triumph" is the Salvation Army's name for what is also known as the Crane duet layout.

(Does it go around saying things like accordions are for him to "poop on"? Okay maybe 2 people will get that joke. )

I'm not one of the two.

Anyway it's like the English layout got fatter by a column.

Not at all. In the English the scale is split between the two hands. The Crane/Triumph has a full scale in each hand.

A duet, is it? Does it have enough sharps and flats to be fully chromatic?

If you look at the keyboard layout, you'll see that it does, at least for up to 30 buttons in a single hand. And not just fully chromatic, but with each accidental physically beside one of its musically adjacent natural notes.

(I've personally analyzed the potential extension of the Crane layout and demonstrated that it can extend to 39 buttons in a single hand and still satisfy both of the above criteria.)

[Ex Libris]

Hello Concertina.Net, this is my first post!

I learned to play EC from the Salvation Army Tutor, and still play some of the arrangements from it.

My father, Alan Hague, also an EC player tells me that he thinks the tutor was compiled by a Colonel Bristow, whose son became Bandmaster at the Salvation Army Memorial Halls in Nottingham. My late grandfather, Herbert Hague - also a keen EC player, composer and music arranger - arranged a medley of hymn tunes for the 1935 edition of the tutor which can been see on p. 28 "Descriptive Selection - Sunday Morn."

Another contributor to the arrangements in the tutor include the dance band leader Henry Hall (famous for his recording of the Teddy Bear's Picnic and many others). Certaintly the Scottish and Welsh medleys (p.45 & p.41) were arranged by Henry, although he is not credited as the arranger in the tutor.

The Welsh medley ends with the tune Sweet Jenny Jones, which is also published in the ICA Spring Music Supplement. Hall's arrangement is a great workout for anyone wanting to practice octaves and sixths!

Jeremy Hague

[Leo]

Copyright for this was increased some years ago but is still only 70 years and that has run out.

Ian

70 years from the date of the death of the author, not date of publication.

Steve

70 years from the date of the death of the author, not date of publication.

Steve

You are right and the copyright might well still be valid therefore.

Ian

Guys I realize I live in the US, BUT, we have a good way to look things up. A quick look says not necessarily to either one. The Copyright for a book in 1935 looks to have a life of the author +50 years and retained through the two revisions in 1956, and 1988. Wickipedia isn't the best place to look for definitive answers, but it's an ok place to start: http://en.wikipedia...._United_Kingdom

The Copyright Act of 1911 provided a longer copyright period, namely the life of the author plus 50 years, for works that were first published after 1 July 1912; thus the date of first publication became irrelevant, provided it was after July 1912. This was retained as the period of copyright under the Copyright Act of 1956[10] and under the 1988 Act.

In the US, we have different laws that are applied, but supposedly can't be applied retroactively:
http://www.unc.edu/~...ng/public-d.htm

Rather than speculate on hearsay, and I thinks, which might or might not apply, Jim's idea would be the only way to go in finding out reality, with one addition. I would ask the Salvation Army directly if the piece was still under copyright. As an organization, I suspect they would be one of the more honorable ones to give a straight answer. It shouldn't be too difficult to find a phone number, or address, or website with an email address for communication. If in fact the copyright has run out, then we can have fun doing as we please with the book.

If it were in the US I would offer to walk down to the local office and ask them to do the investigative work for me, and thank them and make a donation, but in the UK they would probably get a good chuckle. We've already a publication on concertina.com, I don't think under the circumstances they would deny a request like this if asked the way Jim outlined.

Peter Pan is an exception to the law. But then again maybe they subscribe to the adage "It's easier to get forgiveness than it is to get permission".

Thanks
Leo

[JimLucas]

Peter Pan is an exception to the law. But then again maybe they subscribe to the adage "It's easier to get forgiveness than it is to get permission".

Peter Pan?
What does peanut butter have to do with all this, aside from being a potential source of sticky situations?

[Pete McLaughlin]

Thank you Al that is an excellent plan.
and Thank you for taking the time to do it.

Sincerely,

Pete McLaughlin
Morse Albion #677

[Hereward]

I agree that this is an excellent plan. Normally I have a certain disdain for Ruperts but that's in the Green Army and not the Salvation one.

Ian

[P Carr]

if you like I will contact The SA's Cpyright Administrator at my THQ in London next week and take things from there. I too would love to see both the EC Tutor, & Triumph & Anglo Tutors (which I have copies of) made available as pdf

It would be great if you could do that. I would personally love to see the SA's EC Tutor - and it would be such a great learning resource for us all.

Thanks!

[Ptarmigan]

Thanks Alex, that sounds like the way to go on this.

Just for the record, I was actually given this EC Tutor by a retired S. Army couple over here.
They actually gave me their old EC a couple of months back, which was very generous indeed & then they followed that up by sending me the Tutor.
Their old Treble EC had been in a box in a cupboard for over 25 years & they were just delighted to see it go to a good home.
It'll need a bit of work to get it back into playing order, but it'll be a nice little instrument, when I get it restored.

As the Tutor is just packed full of good stuff, I'm sure a PDF file of it here, would be well used.

Good luck at HQ.

Cheers
Dick

[Leo]

Hi Guys - if you like I will contact The SA's Cpyright Administrator at my THQ in London next week and take things from there. I too would love to see both the EC Tutor, & Triumph & Anglo Tutors (which I have copies of) made available as pdf for all on concertina.com What I do know is that the last time I asked the answer was negative - but things may have changed.

What I suggest is that I find out what the situation would be from the Army's perspective and relay that back. Then I would suggest that a formal approach be made by, perhaps, concertina. com

Would that be ok? I'm a serving Salvation Army Officer who still uses a concertina as a regular part of his ministry (one of the few) and I would be very happy to undertake this.

Alex Cadogan
(Captain!)

Hi Al

It might also depend on how it's asked. "Can I have permission to.......?" is a different question than "Can you tell me how do I go about......?", or "Who do I ask about.......?" Leading them to the answer I want might just get a different response. I'm looking forward to see the results.

Thanks
Leo

[lesfix]

I have available professionally produced , spiral bound, lay flat, copies of the Salvation Army Tutors, for both English and Triumph (Crane) Concertinas.

12 Great British Pounds including, p & p U.K., or 15 GBP worldwide.

Cheques to L. Branchett, 25 Spa Road, Gloucester, GL1 1UY, England.

[Pete McLaughlin]

I have available professionally produced , spiral bound, lay flat, copies of the Salvation Army Tutors, for both English and Triumph (Crane) Concertinas.

Thats Great Lesfix.
Have you resolved the question about who currently wons the copyright to these books? Is there a copyright statement in the copies you sell?

Thanks

Pete
Morse Albion #677

[Dirge]

I have available professionally produced , spiral bound, lay flat, copies of the Salvation Army Tutors, for both English and Triumph (Crane) Concertinas.

Thats Great Lesfix.
Have you resolved the question about who currently wons the copyright to these books? Is there a copyright statement in the copies you sell?

Thanks

Pete
Morse Albion #677

Surely it is his problem and those of you that want a copy should just be grateful and post your money off? Why ask?