30 replies to this topic

[David Levine]

This is a little disquisition on <a href="http://www.box.net/shared/ts8vzsfayf" target="_blank">Playing Across the Rows</a>. I have mentioned this before but never gave it a thread of its own. It's been downloaded over 500 times at this point, which amazes me. I would assume that some people are finding it useful. Although it's pretty dense it is a handy way of approaching the instrument. It emphasizes the use of your strongest fingers as well as the use of reeds closest to the open part of the grill-work (rather than under your hand), to get the best sound from your concertina.

It is of course best suited to playing Irish Traditional Music on a Jeffries system. You'd have to make some changes to accommodate the Wheatstone 30 button system, which has just one C# on the right hand. The emphasis throughout is on a single melodic line in the keys of G and D, with occasional chording rather than a continued chordal accompaniment. I am far from being an All-Ireland champion and I don't offer this as anything other than an introduction to playing ITM on the Anglo concertina. It by no means will apply to every jig or reel you come across, but it will get you started. If you take it as gospel - at least for a couple of months - it should make things a lot easier. Down the line you can incorporate such deviations as using the B press on the left-hand G row. The people we most admire as players (at least those who I most admire) all had teachers and they freely give those teachers great credit. I - along with thousands of other players - give thanks to Noel Hill.

Good luck. I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have.

Edited by David Levine, 26 August 2009 - 08:45 AM.

[Rod]

This is a little disquisition on Noel Hill's System. I have mentioned this before but never gave it a thread of its own. It's been downloaded a bunch of times (over twenty) so some people have probably found it useful. It's a handy way of approaching the instrument. It emphasizes the use of your strongest fingers as well as the use of reeds closest to the open part of the grill-work (rather than under your hand), to get the best sound from your concertina.

It is of course best suited to playing Irish Traditional Music. Here the emphasis is on a single melodic line in the keys of G and D, with occasional chording rather than a continued chordal accompaniment. I am far from being an All-Ireland champion and I don't offer this as anything other than an introduction to playing ITM on the Anglo concertina. It by no means will apply to every jig or reel you come across, but it will get you started. If you take it as gospel - at least for a couple of months - it should make things a lot easier. The people we most admire as players (at least those who I most admire) all had teachers and they freely give those teachers great credit. I give thanks to Noel Hill.

Good luck. I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have.

Confused. What do people mean by the expression 'Playing across the rows' ? Virtually all the music I play involves dodging about between the rows. The amount of tunes which can be played satisfactorily on a single row are, I would think, negligible. Have I missed the point ? Rod

[michael sam wild]

In a simple form a 2 row C/G Anglo is essentially like two mouthorgans in C or G . The 3 row has a row of accidental notes as well
It is easier for a mouthorgan or melodeon player to play along the rows, the bounciness gives it the character and the chords are quite simple so for morris etc it is great, but you are quite limited to the key for that row. For Irish and modern music crossing the rows gives fluidity and extra notes and keys

It's the same reason why melodeons became button accordions in keys like B/C, triplets are easier and varied keys

[mthatcher61]

David , thanks for posting this. It is brilliant. It gave me one of those 'Eureka' moments. I tried out the fingering and now see I am totally guilty of massive abusive of 'Chopping'. It will take some time to unlearn my bad habits.

I have been doing an all encompassing chromatic technique exercise that takes in the whole fretboard and hopefully burns all the notes and positions into my finger muscle memory and mind. I start on the lowest note which for me is the C push on the LH C row 6, then the E push 1, F pull 1, G push on 7, G pull on 6, A push in 2, A# pull on 2, B push on 11, B pull on 7, C push on 8, C# push on 3, D push on 12, D pull on 11, D pull on 8, etc all the way up and over to the right hand side with the last note with the B push on the G row on 30. Whilst going up in the scale I try to sing the note calling it out by name with the accidental sharps. Then I start from the high B and go all the way back down to the low C on the LH side singing along with the concertina and calling out the accidentals in flats. I also try to sing the solfedge syllables too. Its a comprehensive exercize that takes in the whole fretboard and hopefully burns the notes and positions into my finger muscle memory and my mind.
As a rule I always hit the push's first,(as you can see with the push and pull G's above) and if there are multiple of the same pushes or pulls, then I go with the one closer to the left first(as you can see with the push-pull-pull D's above).

Its a great exercise and I am really beginning to see and feel the fretboard. if I need a note I know immediately where to find it. The only problem is I can now see I have been chopping all over the place. I now need to incorporate your Noel Hill rules and also what you alluded to in your disquisition. I need to know some of the basic rules or tricks for shifting my hand position. How and when do you do it. Can you give me a brief explanation please?
Thanks

[Azalin]

David, I finally took the time to look at your document. It's great, and the good thing is, I happened to have adopted pretty much what's in it in the past few months... There are a few exceptions, I seem to be using #14 more than I should, based on what you said here:

Noel does not like #14 but I find it helpful sometimes

Do you know why Noel doesn't like #14? That push B is so useful because first you can 'roll' it, and I'd use it in many tunes to jump the octave and stuff, starting with that B...

[David Levine]

I have been doing an all encompassing chromatic technique exercise that takes in the whole fretboard -- I don't see why you'd do this. If your goal is to play totally chromatically and you're over thirty years old I'd recommend an English concertina. For ITM - which is all I know about and all I can play - the anglo is fine. For playing in keys other than D, G, A, F, Bb and some related minors all you need to know is the basic layout. Otherwise you're spending an awful lot of time learning things you'll probably never use. First learn the basics so you can play tunes with perfect rhythm and phrasing and then move on to tunes in Eb. - Are there any?

I need to know some of the basic rules or tricks for shifting my hand position. How and when do you do it. All I ever shift is my left hand position and then only when I use my ring and little finger in a phrase. If I have to use #2 on such tunes as Lads Unleashed or Martin Wynne's then I'll use my little finger - though Azalin and some others (Mark Davies) would use #11. You could work it out for yourself. Some people will twist their left hand around to use their middle finger on #2. This is a neat way of playing a difficult button with a strong finger. But in general you should use the little finger as much as possible and train it to be accurate and dexterous.

Do you know why Noel doesn't like #14? That push B is so useful... It is useful and I use it on certain tunes - notably, where it either follows or precedes #21 - or where I want the triplet 14-16-15 (or 16-14-13, as in The Pope's Toe). For one thing #14 doesn't sound as good as #21. That B reed lies in a corner, under the hand-rest, and sounds veiled on my concertinas. Part of Noel's system is to get the best sound from the instrument as well as to facilitate fingering. So he stresses using reeds that lie under the open part of the grill-work. I would advise using #21 as the default B and save #14 for when you have to use it. This will eventually make a lot of what you do much easier and makes the whole fingering system fall into place.

[mthatcher61]

"I have been doing an all encompassing chromatic technique exercise that takes in the whole fretboard [/i]-- I don't see why you'd do this. If your goal is to play totally chromatically and you're over thirty years old I'd recommend an English concertina. For ITM - which is all I know about and all I can play - the anglo is fine. For playing in keys other than D, G, A, F, Bb and some related minors all you need to know is the basic layout. Otherwise you're spending an awful lot of time learning things you'll probably never use. First learn the basics so you can play tunes with perfect rhythm and phrasing and then move on to tunes in Eb. - Are there any?"


It's just an exercise to learn and command the whole fretboard. I don't know any tunes in Eb but I do want to the whole fingerboard at my disposal. I love ITM and thats what pretty much got me started on the Anglo concertina but I also like Old Time, bluegrass and rock too. I love the fiddle tune repertois be it Irish, Scottish, Appalachian, Canadian or whatever. I want to be familiar enough with the fretboard to know exactly where everything is at so I may be able to recall and utilize what I want when I want. I want to be able to play along with CD's and the Radio at will whithout having to stop, and work up an arrangement and then play it later. I am trying to burn in the board to both my fingers and ears. Thats why I am doing the chromatic exercise. For instance today on a whim after hearing it on the radio I was working on Van Morrison's Tupelo Honey. Which, funnily enough has an Eb chord in it. Bb, Dm/A, Eb and F chords. And I did need to catch that low F for part of the melody. I found that song is 'doable' on a 30 key G/C Anglo. As for skills, I'd rather have 'em and not need 'em. I'd just rather not put limits on myself.
I'm 47 and have no desire to learn the English concertina. I like Anglo plenty enough thanks. I must just be young at heart.

Edited by mthatcher61, 22 April 2009 - 02:09 PM.

[TomB-R]

Good stuff Mark and fair play to you.
Tom

[David Levine]

I couldn’t let the last two posts go unanswered. It all depends on what you want to get out of the instrument. Even the fiddle, which is so versatile when it comes to playing in different keys, demands a certain degree of obsession to master just one musical idiom. It gets harder as one gets older.
If you start with classical music when you’re five years old and master the fingerboard then you might be able to achieve a certain competence in ITM, say, and bluegrass. But to develop accomplishment in, as has been said, “Old Time, bluegrass … rock .. the fiddle tune repertois be it Irish, Scottish, Appalachian, Canadian or whatever …” seems daunting to me. On the Anglo it seems a very difficult task indeed. Good luck and don't let me discourage you.
I suppose in the end if you enjoy the journey then it's worthwhile. I will be happy enough to play in the easy keys of G,D,A and their related minors, with an occasional foray into C and F.

Edited by David Levine, 05 May 2009 - 03:40 PM.

[ZiziAllaire]

David, your attitude is typical of someone bent on mastering Irish trad. I should know! Indeed I agree that people who endeavour to play in several trad. idioms styles rarely satisfy people as critical as you and me when we hear them playing our chosen idiom. But you should allow that not everybody is aiming to satisfy the likes of you and me. They could just be aiming to satisfy themselves, and what's wrong with that?

On an internet discussion group you can pretend to be anybody you like.

On an internet discussion group, you can also easily underestimate the person you are talking to...

Cheers
Steve

[m3838]

David, your attitude is typical of someone bent on mastering Irish trad. I should know! Indeed I agree that people who endeavour to play in several trad. idioms styles rarely satisfy people as critical as you and me when we hear them playing our chosen idiom. But you should allow that not everybody is aiming to satisfy the likes of you and me. They could just be aiming to satisfy themselves, and what's wrong with that?

On an internet discussion group you can pretend to be anybody you like.

On an internet discussion group, you can also easily underestimate the person you are talking to...

Cheers
Steve

Good point, finally.
Big deal, across the rows or along the rows. Some discussion it is. Play it the way you like and be responsible for the result. You like the way you sound? - so you are in Heaven, keep up with it. You don't like how others sound? - don't listen. You have your own ideas? - great, practice them. And by all means, don't take it too hard, when somebody critiques you. If not, what else are you going to discuss, football?
As far as I can see, Irish traditional music sounds better and better, and those youngsters are not on this forum. What can we teach them? All other genres of concertina music sound nothing short of amateurish. With this in mind we can enjoy what we are doing and not shove our perception of style (taken out of blue, by the way) into unwilling respondents.

[s2maur]

Being a long time student of Noel's in the U.S.A., I have always understood his method to be more of an ergonomical endeavor when it comes to crossing the rows. His point is that if you play in the key of G and its modes that you can play most of the tune with the index fingers and the ring fingers. The pattern for the scale also becomes shorter. Instead of being in a long single line scale, it becomes more of a concise box between the left and right hand index and ring fingers. I'm not saying that all tunes fall into that design but enough do to make it possible to play them with less energy resulting in faster and more accurate playing. So, play the g and a (push and pull) on the L.H. C row (index), the b (pull) on the R.H. C row (index), the c (pull) on the L.H. G row (ring), d and e (push and Pull) on the L.H. G row (index), the f# and g (pull and push) on the R.H. G row (index). Now, you have played the G scale using only three fingers and the scale pattern is in a tight little area.

If you put your mind to it, you can find several songs in the modes of G that would play mostly in that little scale range. Once you get used to it, you can achieve a lot of accuracy and speed with just a little practice.

Hope this helps to add to the understanding of the benefits of the appropriate use of crossing the rows.

Steve

[pete]

Being a long time student of Noel's in the U.S.A., I have always understood his method to be more of an ergonomical endeavor when it comes to crossing the rows. His point is that if you play in the key of G and its modes that you can play most of the tune with the index fingers and the ring fingers. The pattern for the scale also becomes shorter. Instead of being in a long single line scale, it becomes more of a concise box between the left and right hand index and ring fingers. I'm not saying that all tunes fall into that design but enough do to make it possible to play them with less energy resulting in faster and more accurate playing. So, play the g and a (push and pull) on the L.H. C row (index), the b (pull) on the R.H. C row (index), the c (pull) on the L.H. G row (ring), d and e (push and Pull) on the L.H. G row (index), the f# and g (pull and push) on the R.H. G row (index). Now, you have played the G scale using only three fingers and the scale pattern is in a tight little area.

If you put your mind to it, you can find several songs in the modes of G that would play mostly in that little scale range. Once you get used to it, you can achieve a lot of accuracy and speed with just a little practice.

Hope this helps to add to the understanding of the benefits of the appropriate use of crossing the rows.

Steve

Thanks Steve for a clear description of the fingering for the scale. I don't actually play like this but having just given it a go (slowly!) I can see that it is economical of movement. It did make me wonder if there is a reason for using the c(pull) on the LH G row rather than using the c (push) on the RH C row, which would seem an even tighter box of notes and just use the index fingers. I'm guessing there must be a reason, but have no idea what!

Pete

[s2maur]

Thanks Steve for a clear description of the fingering for the scale. I don't actually play like this but having just given it a go (slowly!) I can see that it is economical of movement. It did make me wonder if there is a reason for using the c(pull) on the LH G row rather than using the c (push) on the RH C row, which would seem an even tighter box of notes and just use the index fingers. I'm guessing there must be a reason, but have no idea what!

Pete

Pete,

I think that the standardizing of a fingering scale is helpful when learning new songs, especially in the written form. Then, when that fingering seems awkward (physically or musically), a player can make the adjustments as needed. The G scale can be played in many ways but a player has to have a basic fingering to go from at first. I relearned my scale fingerings for every song I knew and once I had the new scale implanted firmly, I could read and play thru sheet music faster. Once I learned the basic song by reading then I would learn it by ear. That is where the exceptions to the rules come into play. Things like playing the d on the right hand ring finger (pull) on the C row instead of on the left hand G row with the index (push) or playing the "a" pull with the ring finger on the G row to hit the index push "d" same row and hand. And numerous more exceptions that would take up too much time to explain.
This fingering is one of the many that I had figured out on my own, as many others have, but narrowing the scale down to a basic first choice and altering it as needed sure makes things less complicated for me.
There are many players that use a straight row and are wonderful players. They have a unique syncopation because of the those specific push, pull combinations. With a standard fingering, the alternate options can be changed to either smooth out or make percussive the transition from one note to another depending on what is required for the tune or the player.
I am in no way a great or even moderate player. I didn't start learning how to play a concertina until I was 52. I didn't listen to or play much Irish music until the 1980's when I played a harmonica, a bamboo flute and a whistle on St. Patrick's Day. It was mostly for the American drinkers which meant the typical Bawdy and Raucous songs. As I look back in shame upon what I thought was Irish music and playing I blush with embarrassment and wish that I had exposed myself to the Reel thing. I wasted 15 to 20 years of good learning time. Now I am content to play with more expression and less speed due to the age of my fingers and the slowing down of the synapses.

Hope this is helpful to some new learners.

David's PDF on this is very informative and well worth it for all new players, with limited access to the real folk process, to read through. I must also give credit to Noel's teachings for making my life easier. It is money well spent to go to one of his workshops either here in the U.S or in Ireland.

Steve

Edited by s2maur, 09 May 2009 - 09:39 AM.

[ZiziAllaire]

I couldn’t let the last two posts go unanswered. It all depends on what you want to get out of the instrument. Even the fiddle, which is so versatile when it comes to playing in different keys, demands a certain degree of obsession to master just one musical idiom. It gets harder as one gets older.

If you start with classical music when you’re five years old and master the fingerboard then you might be able to achieve a certain competence in ITM, say, and bluegrass. But to develop accomplishment in, as has been said, “Old Time, bluegrass … rock .. the fiddle tune repertois be it Irish, Scottish, Appalachian, Canadian or whatever …” seems daunting to me. On the Anglo it seems a very difficult task indeed. Good luck and don't let me discourage you.
I suppose in the end if you enjoy the journey then it's worthwhile. I will be happy enough to play in the easy keys of G,D,A and their related minors, with an occasional foray into C and F.

I find it annoying when people edit their posts after you have commented on them. David while I'm glad to see you have moderated your attitude, merely editing out the harsh stuff leaves my original reply (quoted below) looking as though I am being carping, when in fact I was being very measured - or so I thought. A little more transparency on your part would have been appreciated, certainly by me and doubtless by the person at whom your original rather offensive comments were directed. I'll take the trouble to quote you chapter and verse next time.

Regards
Steve

David, your attitude is typical of someone bent on mastering Irish trad. I should know! Indeed I agree that people who endeavour to play in several trad. idioms styles rarely satisfy people as critical as you and me when we hear them playing our chosen idiom. But you should allow that not everybody is aiming to satisfy the likes of you and me. They could just be aiming to satisfy themselves, and what's wrong with that?

On an internet discussion group you can pretend to be anybody you like.

On an internet discussion group, you can also easily underestimate the person you are talking to...

[Rolf Gidlow]

I completely understand (and agree with) the need to have a "base" fingering system as a place to start from. That said, I'm still perplexed by the use of the #14 draw to play the 'c'. It adds another finger for just one note, and it doesn't decrease the number of bellows changes than one would employ to play a G scale using instead the #21 push. But what puzzles me the most is that Mr. Hill doesn't like the #14 push to play 'B' because of the location of the reed (under the hand) and the resultant change in sound - yet, for the #14 pull ('C'), the reed is located in the same place and clearly (on my two concertinas at least) has a different sound than the right hand 'C'. I'll be studying with Mr. Hill in a couple of months and can get the explanation directly from the source but, still, I'm puzzled by that choice.

[Larryo]

David Levine is more knowledgeable than I on this subject and will pass comment in dues course I am sure, but my understanding is that Noel Hill plays the C on the right hand?

[David Levine]

It did make me wonder if there is a reason for using the c(pull) on the LH G row rather than using the c (push) on the RH C row

...what puzzles me the most is that Mr. Hill doesn't like the #14 push to play 'B' because of the location of the reed (under the hand) and the resultant change in sound - yet, for the #14 pull ('C'), the reed is located in the same place

Very logical questions to ask. For one thing the B draw facilitates the move from B to C -- and the B-C-D triplet -- in a tidy fashion. It's faster than using the B-C on the G row. The phrasing is smoother if that's what you want. The other thing is that the B draw is placed on top of the reed pan, rather than under the pan (and facing into the bellows). The reeds on top work on the draw and are a little bit brighter than those reeds on the underside of the pan, that work on the press. Part of Noel's intent is to make the concertina sound better as well as making it easier to play fast and easily.

I find it easier to use the air button dump air, on the press, rather use it than to take air in. So in general I am happier using more draw than press buttons.

In all of this it is important to remember that these rules are not graven in stone. At some point or other I use nearly every button on the concertina. Steve put it very well when he said that "… the standardizing of a fingering scale is helpful when learning …. Then, when that fingering seems awkward (physically or musically), a player can make the adjustments as needed."

For instance, I use the B #14 when it's handier to use it than not (2nd. bar Longford Tinker) and to avoid jumping, or chopping. I use the G draw #4 on the top row on occasion (2nd part Bellharbor Hornpipe). Nobody is telling you never to use certain buttons. Just that concentrating on some buttons will make your playing better in the long run.