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#1 Joyce

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 02:05 PM

Many of the concertinas listed in the Wheatstone Ledgers have the letters S.V.W.S. Is there a key for deciphering these notations? If not, does anyone know what they stand for?

Joyce :unsure:

#2 malcolm clapp

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 07:30 PM

Some are even marked W.S.S.V., i.e. a reversal of the letters you mention. Therefore I believe it refers to several different features.

I am fairly certain that the W.S bit is "wrist straps", as I have checked a number of Wheatstones Englishes against the ledger and those with original wrist straps are all marked W.S. The W.S is absent on those I have checked that have no wrist straps. Mind you, my sample has been small (6 only).

Have not discovered any common feature yet for S.V. (or even S or V).
Hopefully, somebody knows....

Regards,
Malcolm

#3 JimLucas

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 02:31 AM

Many of the concertinas listed in the Wheatstone Ledgers have the letters S.V.W.S. Is there a key for deciphering these notations?

No.

I don't believe Wheatstone kept a key. And many special features were noted inconsistently or not at all. (The possibly unique 1924 Pitt-Taylor system duet #30030 is listed in the ledger simply as "Special", with no indication as to what about it is special. The model number 40 normally indicates a Maccann duet, which it isn't. In this case it really only specifies the size and shape of the ends.)

If not, does anyone know what they stand for?

I think it has been pretty well established that "W.S." consistently correlates with wrist straps. One suggestion I've seen for "S.V." is that the "V" stands for "vibrator" -- a term sometimes used by Wheatstone for the reeds themselves -- and that the "S" stands for "special", thus "S.V." being reeds of a higher quality than standard. One might guess that the "S" could stand for either "standard" or "steel", but of course one wouldn't bother specifying "standard" and not non-standard, and also I believe most instruments (at least during the period covered by these ledgers) had steel reeds, far more than those marked "S.V.".

Oops! But then there's #30125, which is marked "S.V. L Side". There's nothing but the "S.V." for "L Side" to apply to, so "S.V." must be something normally found on the right side. Might the "V" in "S.V." actually mean "valve", as in "air valve" (button or lever)? Then what does the "S" stand for? Well, "K.V." seems to correlate fairly well with air valves which are buttons, and Wheatstone normally used the term "key" for "button", so "K.V." should mean "key valve". So I'm leaning toward "S.V." meaning some kind of air valve, but what does the "S" stand for? "Slide", as in sliding lever? If anyone else has a Wheatstone instrument with an air valve which is a sliding lever, rather than a button, could you let us know whether it's listed in the ledger with the notation "S.V."? (I have one, but it's from the period not covered by the ledgers.)

Some notations are fairly obvious: "Octo" means octagonal ends. Numbers followed by double quotes are the sizes of the ends in inches. "N.P." means nickel plated. "Rose" is rosewood, and "Mah" is mahogany. "S.A." means "single action", a set of reeds for only one bellows direction. But what is "Free Lever", on #30043? Apparently some special design for the action, but what? I have no idea.

Many notations and even the meanings of some notations, clearly changed over the years. Notations of "Duet", "Crane", or "A.G." (Anglo-German) were often replaced in later years by model-number designations. (But the many entries marked both "A.G." and "Duet" leave me wondering.)

#4 JimLucas

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 08:22 AM

A further note on the meaning of "S.V.":

I've just noticed the group of instruments #27027-27032, which are noted as "S.V. W.S.", except that there is a special note on #27030 that says, "No valve or W.S." I guess that's strong confirmation that the "V" in "S.V." stands for "valve".

#5 wes williams

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 08:24 AM

"S.V. L Side".

I'd suggest that S.V. may be Side or Slide Valve, an English system version of the Anglo air button. These, like the anglo, were normally fitted on the right hand, so in this case, fitting to the opposite side to usual has been noted.

There isn't any key in the ledgers, including the earlier ones not yet on site. I believe there is the possibility that a site will established in the future which will attempt to organise help on things connected with the ledgers like this.

#6 Joyce

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 12:34 PM

Thanks for all the information Malcolm, Jim, and Wes. Much appreciated!

Joyce :)

#7 JimLucas

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 01:51 PM

"S.V. L Side".

I'd suggest that S.V. may be Side or Slide Valve, an English system version of the Anglo air button.

Wes, are you truly that provincial? "A version of the Anglo..."? Really!! :angry:

Well, many an English has a small lever that I think could be called a "slide" or "swing" valve, though I don't know what Wheatstone called them. (Do any of the price lists describe something like that?) Not at all like anglo air buttons, to me they resemble the infamous "bowing valves", but with only the one, while bowing valves were supposed to be paired on the two ends. (There are some "B.V." ledger notations, and even a few "D.V." -- "D" for double?) So another possibility might be that the "S" stands for "single".

I'm pretty sure the "S" doesn't mean "side", since I haven't seen any significant variation in positioning of air valves that could warrant such a verbal dístinction. I have come across one curious ledger entry, though:

#29119 is part of a batch (starting at #29114) which are noted as model 17, "Black, 48 Keys", but #29119 has a special additional notation: "Press Up Valve's Action moved up. Button on Side". I would very much like to see that instrument, to see what was actually meant. :unsure:

#8 wes williams

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 09:40 AM

Jim, Are you truly that pendantically PC and over-sensitive? Really!! :rolleyes:

This was written to explain things as simply as possible. If you don't agree with my suggestion, its not a problem - but "belittling" attacks smack of something I hoped we'd lost. And what do you hope to acheive by such an outburst of anger (your choice of "smilie")?

I'm not sure what the 'S' means - but I'm pretty sure S.V. represents the 'air slide valve' or whatever politically correct term you choose to call it. I've held this view since shortly after reading the ledgers and discussing it with a few others. I have found no reason to change it, whilst you, in contrast, have changed opinion already in this thread -and now you are making me behave in a similarly stupid manner!! :angry:

#9 malcolm clapp

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 10:11 AM

I've just looked at a ledger entry marked S.V., but the concertina in question has no air valve of any type.
Maybe they just forgot to put it on... :P

I would be interested to know at what point in the process of ordering/manufacturing/completing/invoicing/dispatching etc that the ledger entries were made. And, in the case of the earlier ledgers, by whom?
And at what point the number was allocated.

Regards
Malcolm

Edited by malcolm clapp, 23 March 2004 - 10:13 AM.


#10 JimLucas

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 10:24 AM

Jim, Are you truly that pendantically PC and over-sensitive? Really!! :rolleyes

Not on your life! But it's awfully hard to convey a mock huff. :(

Thought you knew me well enough to know that I was faking the anger and chuckling under my breath.
...Sorry that I was wrong. (Or was I right, and you just giving me tit for tat there? :) )

In any case, I think we're agreed on what the notation probably indicates, even if we don't know what the Wheatstone folks called it.

I have found no reason to change it, whilst you, in contrast, have changed opinion already in this thread

No. I've offered a variety of different potential interpretations, and included some of the evidence and logic that has led me to reject some of them and prefer the interpretation that it means the sliding-lever air valve. That's to help keep others from becoming confused if they stumble upon similar alternative ideas.

I've also made a request for anyone with additional evidence -- whether supporting or against this interpretation -- to please let us know about it. In spite of our interpretation, I haven't personally recorded any confirming examples of an instrument with such valves matching a notation in the records, though that's mainly because I didn't think to check for that until very recently. I certainly haven't seen any that contradict it.

#11 wes williams

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 12:22 PM

Jim Lucas:

...Sorry that I was wrong. (Or was I right, and you just giving me tit for tat there?)

No, I'm sorry I misinterpreted what you said!

malcolm clapp:

I've just looked at a ledger entry marked S.V., but the concertina in question has no air valve of any type.
Maybe they just forgot to put it on...

My suggestion was based on the variations of abbreviations used throughout the ledgers compared to the instrument types they appeared with, rather than actual observations, so could easily be wrong! But errors in the ledgers compared to real instruments have already been found. The next answer may suggest one reason why.

malcolm clapp:

I would be interested to know at what point in the process of ordering/manufacturing/completing/invoicing/dispatching etc that the ledger entries were made. And, in the case of the earlier ledgers, by whom?
And at what point the number was allocated

A 'logical' look at the ledgers suggests that the date is always entered after the entry, so a batch of instruments of the same type with contiguous serial numbers sometimes have dates different by a year or more (Example: SD1 p180 29480-5). Geoff Crabb mentions a similar thing - when making a certain part, with the time spent setting up a machine, it was worth making a few, and saving the extra parts for the future. Wheatstones 'factory' approach could have worked on a larger scale, perhaps nearing full instrument level.

So I'd suggest that perhaps the ledger entries are made in multiple stages - the numbers first (as a new page is required), the instrument types next (when the 'management' have decided how many of each batch they want to build, or an order arrives that sets off a requirement), and the dates finally (when it went out the door?).

'By whom?' in respect of the earlier ledgers is an interesting point. The first ledger starts off with often variable notation, and seems somewhat naive in places. Later it becomes confident and standardised. Was it originally a 'personal notebook' of someone learning the trade? I can suggest one co-incidence. K.V. Chidley (Kenneth Vernon, not Key Valve :P ), eldest son of one of the proprietors, started at Wheatstone in 1906 aged 14. His brother Gifford was 4 years younger. The first ledger starts in 1910. Both brothers are listed as Company Directors about 1950.

Edited by wes williams, 23 March 2004 - 12:24 PM.


#12 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 01:35 PM

I can suggest one co-incidence. K.V. Chidley (Kenneth Vernon, not Key Valve  :P ), eldest son of one of the proprietors, started at Wheatstone in 1906 aged 14. His brother Gifford was 4 years younger. The first ledger starts in 1910. Both brothers are listed as Company Directors about 1950.

I once had the tortoiseshell duet that Kenneth Chidley made for his wife, the seller reckoned that you could still smell her perfume, when you opened the case, for years after he bought it !

"K.V." seems to correlate fairly well with air valves which are buttons, and Wheatstone normally used the term "key" for "button", so "K.V." should mean "key valve".

The expression "Key Valve W.S." is actually used in connection with # 31100. Also I remember that my old 48-key, tortoiseshell, aeola was listed as a "K.V.", and it had a button valve key, or "key valve".

Edited by Stephen Chambers, 24 March 2004 - 09:06 PM.


#13 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 09:01 PM

Looking through the ledgers, I came across an entry that seems to explain the meaning of B.V.

It is for # 26866, described as a "Nickel 56 keys (Boyd) B.V.", which sounds like a typical model made for Harry Boyd of Newcastle, that is to say a 56-key extended treble, with metal ends, a very sharp sound, and bowing valves !

So B.V.= Bowing Valves

Perhaps D.V. (Double Valves ?) was used interchangeably, as the ledgers are not always consistent, and then S.V. indicated a Single Valve of that same lever type, as Jim has suggested.

Edited by Stephen Chambers, 24 March 2004 - 09:11 PM.


#14 JimLucas

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 01:01 AM

Perhaps D.V. (Double Valves ?) was used interchangeably, as the ledgers are not always consistent, and then S.V. indicated a Single Valve of that same lever type, as Jim has suggested.

Well, my speculation -- and speculation is what it is -- is that S.V. is a single B.V. type valve, and that D.V. might be a double K.V. (i.e., an air button on each side). So far I have no examples of instruments marked D.V. to test that theory, though.

#15 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 05:14 AM

Well, my speculation ... is that ... D.V. might be a double K.V. (i.e., an air button on each side).  So far I have no examples of instruments marked D.V. to test that theory, though.

Well, in 35 years of dealing, repairing and looking at concertinas, I have never, ever, seen, or even heard of, such a strange feature. I doubt if one was ever made like that, but they were always ready to "customise" instruments for people, so you never know...

Anybody got a "D.V." Wheatstone, to resolve this ?

Edited by Stephen Chambers, 05 August 2004 - 11:23 AM.


#16 kerrym

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 04:03 PM

Well, my speculation ... is that ... D.V. might be a double K.V. (i.e., an air button on each side).  So far I have no examples of instruments marked D.V. to test that theory, though.

Well, in 35 years of dealing, repairing and looking at concertinas, I have never, ever, seen, or even heard of, such a strange feature. I doubt if one was ever made like that, but they were always ready to "customise" instruments for people, so you never know...

Anybody got a "D.V." Wheatstone, to resolve this ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


A very newbie here so please excuse any lack of correct ettiquette at the moment.I have just obtained a Wheatstone Boyd 56 key (model probably 24)
which has an air lever on either side.
I have just put it in for restoration, it is in original condition (ie no obvious refurbishments) and is still in great condition.
I stumbled across your notes after trying to date this instrument as it has no numbers.
It is definitely a Wheatstone Boyd and fits the bill for 26866.
Any hints as to howelse I can find info on it.
thanks for reading

Edited by kerrym, 15 May 2005 - 04:04 PM.


#17 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 08:05 PM

I have just obtained a Wheatstone Boyd 56 key (model probably 24) which has an air lever on either side. ... It is definitely a Wheatstone Boyd and fits the bill for 26866. Any hints as to howelse I can find info on it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The most critical thing is the serial number, which should be inside the instrument.

As you have probably discovered, Harry Boyd had special models built for him by both Lachenal's and Wheatstone's. They are always 56-key trebles, with metal ends that have his name worked into the fretwork, they have bowing valves and they are very loud !

I know that he made at least one 78rpm record, because I've got a copy.

#18 Theo

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Posted 16 May 2005 - 03:40 AM

They are always 56-key trebles, with metal ends that have his name worked into the fretwork, they have bowing valves and they are very loud !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Well this one is a 48 key Lachenal Boyd no 46430

Theo

boyd48.jpg




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