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Some more....murdered songs


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#19 Hereward

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 09:19 AM

Thanks John. That's not obvious to some beginners and I am glad to know it as it makes me feel slightly less inept.

Ian

#20 LDT

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 09:31 AM

Thanks John. That's not obvious to some beginners and I am glad to know it as it makes me feel slightly less inept.

Ian

I still feel inept. :(

#21 JimLucas

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 10:26 AM

There's one thing that we should make clear to beginners. Some people say they play from tablature, others that they play from "tadpoles", others that they play by ear. But this is not strictly true.
What they really mean is, they learn from tablature or "tadpoles" or by ear.

You calling me a liar (I say with a :))? I'm sure you don't mean to, but you are. ;)

While I do use standard notation (your "tadpoles" :)), my ear, and (with somewhat more difficulty) abc notation and various forms of tablature for learning tunes, songs, arrangements, etc., I also frequently play from standard notation, and occasionally even "by ear".

From notation, it's what is often termed "sight reading". That means that I can play (or sing) a piece that I've never heard or seen before, up to speed, and with appropriate stylistic emphasis and sometimes even improvised ornamentation and harmony, as I read from the score the pitches and durations of the notes that are written there. Yet when I'm done playing in this way, I have rarely actually learned the piece I've just played. I can read and play like this, because I am familiar enough with both the notation and the styles that I can respond to them in the way a bicyclist or bus driver responds to the turns, bumps, and signage on a road that (s)he has never travelled before.

"By ear", of course, I can't hear the notes before they're played by others. But often I can play along with improvised harmonies or melodic sequences, because the structure is familar. (If it goes in some musical direction I didn't anticipate, the result can be embarrassing, though occasionally it may seem "creative".) But sometimes I can also "pick up" a tune by the second or third repetition and play along quite handily, yet be unable to play it alone only a few minutes later. In fact, my fingers can often play along with an unfamiliar tune, even though at the same time my consciousness can't identify the notes from listening, but only from paying attention to what my fingers are doing. (And the consciousness is slower; it can't catch all the notes the fingers are playing on a single pass.)

So what you say may be true of some -- quite likely many -- people, but it's not universally true, and it's false for you to suggest that noone does or can "play" from notation of one form or another. You may not yet have reached the stage where you can do it, but some of us can and do. It is both a useful skill and an attainable goal. Beginners should not feel discouraged that they can't do so immediately, but neither should they be discouraged from trying to learn the skill.

#22 JimLucas

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 10:33 AM

I still feel inept. :(

And probably impatient, as well.

But keep practicing. "Ept" will come. :)



#23 Hereward

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 11:27 AM

There's one thing that we should make clear to beginners. Some people say they play from tablature, others that they play from "tadpoles", others that they play by ear. But this is not strictly true.
What they really mean is, they learn from tablature or "tadpoles" or by ear.

You calling me a liar (I say with a :))? I'm sure you don't mean to, but you are. ;)

While I do use standard notation (your "tadpoles" :)), my ear, and (with somewhat more difficulty) abc notation and various forms of tablature for learning tunes, songs, arrangements, etc., I also frequently play from standard notation, and occasionally even "by ear".

From notation, it's what is often termed "sight reading". That means that I can play (or sing) a piece that I've never heard or seen before, up to speed, and with appropriate stylistic emphasis and sometimes even improvised ornamentation and harmony, as I read from the score the pitches and durations of the notes that are written there. Yet when I'm done playing in this way, I have rarely actually learned the piece I've just played. I can read and play like this, because I am familiar enough with both the notation and the styles that I can respond to them in the way a bicyclist or bus driver responds to the turns, bumps, and signage on a road that (s)he has never travelled before.

"By ear", of course, I can't hear the notes before they're played by others. But often I can play along with improvised harmonies or melodic sequences, because the structure is familar. (If it goes in some musical direction I didn't anticipate, the result can be embarrassing, though occasionally it may seem "creative".) But sometimes I can also "pick up" a tune by the second or third repetition and play along quite handily, yet be unable to play it alone only a few minutes later. In fact, my fingers can often play along with an unfamiliar tune, even though at the same time my consciousness can't identify the notes from listening, but only from paying attention to what my fingers are doing. (And the consciousness is slower; it can't catch all the notes the fingers are playing on a single pass.)

So what you say may be true of some -- quite likely many -- people, but it's not universally true, and it's false for you to suggest that noone does or can "play" from notation of one form or another. You may not yet have reached the stage where you can do it, but some of us can and do. It is both a useful skill and an attainable goal. Beginners should not feel discouraged that they can't do so immediately, but neither should they be discouraged from trying to learn the skill.


Now I'm back to feeling inept again.

Ian

#24 Pete Dunk

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 06:27 PM

Now I'm back to feeling inept again.

Ian

How so? As Jim explained all basic skills are attainable through practice and familiarity; in time you will be 'competent' to a greater or lesser degree, which in itself is a worthy goal. Folk like you and I have no pretensions that we might one day be great players but being able to rattle off a tune or two to a decent standard seems like enough of an acheivement to me.

Look upon music as a challenging delight rather than a gruesome chore and who knows, one day, it just might be.

Pete. :)

#25 Hereward

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 06:42 PM

Now I'm back to feeling inept again.

Ian

How so? As Jim explained all basic skills are attainable through practice and familiarity; in time you will be 'competent' to a greater or lesser degree, which in itself is a worthy goal. Folk like you and I have no pretensions that we might one day be great players but being able to rattle off a tune or two to a decent standard seems like enough of an acheivement to me.

Look upon music as a challenging delight rather than a gruesome chore and who knows, one day, it just might be.

Pete. :)


You have a way of making me feel ontop of the world again Pete. It's a shame that music teachers I had back in the day lacked that.

I shall take your advice and enjoy myself playing (once I can play of course).

Ian

#26 LDT

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 05:13 AM

my latest attempts...
http://www.soundlant...e.do?ToId=24343

http://www.soundlant...e.do?ToId=24344

#27 Hereward

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 06:30 AM

my latest attempts...
http://www.soundlant...e.do?ToId=24343

http://www.soundlant...e.do?ToId=24344


I might not be able to play much yet LDT but I have a good ear as a singer and can tell that you are improving by leaps and bounds.

Ian

#28 Anglo-Irishman

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 09:04 AM

So what you say may be true of some -- quite likely many -- people, but it's not universally true, and it's false for you to suggest that noone does or can "play" from notation of one form or another. You may not yet have reached the stage where you can do it, but some of us can and do. It is both a useful skill and an attainable goal. Beginners should not feel discouraged that they can't do so immediately, but neither should they be discouraged from trying to learn the skill.


Now I'm back to feeling inept again.

Ian


Ian,
We live, we learn! In this case, we learn that an excellent sight-reader is not necessarily a good motivator ;)

JimLucas is obviously one of those very talented, very well trained, very experienced musicians I mentioned. And a lot of what he wrote had more to do with "extemporising" than with learning or just playing. Extemporising is a different thing altogether, more akin to "arranging on the fly" than just performing a set piece. Nice if you can do it, but you can be a perfectly adequate player without it.
I would also venture to suppose that even JimLucas would play a piece better third or fourth time round :P (... as opposed to the thirtieth or fortieth time, like many of us :( )

Just you keep learning and playing, learning and playing. Most of us don't stop learning until we stop playing :lol:

Cheers,
John

#29 Hereward

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 09:18 AM

Thanks John. Being isolated from other musicians, I think I expect too much from myself. But now I realise that most people have to struggle to learn too.

Ian

Edited by Hereward, 13 December 2008 - 09:19 AM.


#30 Anglo-Irishman

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 06:46 AM

Thanks John. Being isolated from other musicians, I think I expect too much from myself. But now I realise that most people have to struggle to learn too.

Ian

Ian,
I think that's one very useful aspect of this list. We're all at different levels of talent, experience and proficiency. Wherever you see yourself, you realise that you're not alone. ;)

I do have musical contacts, but for various reasons, I've avoided the mainstream guitar, saxophone and keyboard, so I'm the only one (that I know of) in my area who plays what I play: concertina, finger-style 5-string banjo and autoharp. I "played with" each of them for decades rather than years, but it was only through contacts with other players in forums like this that I realised the potential of each instrument - and my own potential! The other side of the coin is, as you say, learning not to expect too much from the instrument or yourself. :rolleyes:

At any rate, you'll always find answers to questions of technique, instrument care, etc. I've found that a little hint is often worth more than hours of trial and error.

Cheers,
John

#31 LDT

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 04:29 AM

Two more tunes
http://www.soundlant...e.do?ToId=24946

http://www.soundlant...e.do?ToId=24943

#32 LDT

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 06:26 AM

another one
http://www.soundlant...e.do?ToId=27350
doin' the lambeth walk...oi!

#33 Hereward

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 06:53 AM

another one
http://www.soundlant...e.do?ToId=27350
doin' the lambeth walk...oi!


I hear quite an improvement and don't believe you can call this 'murdering' any longer.

What I do still can rightly be referred to as mass slaughter on the musical scale; although I have got to the point where I can believe I will crack it eventually.

Ian

#34 LDT

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 08:12 AM

I hear quite an improvement and don't believe you can call this 'murdering' any longer.

have you heard this one though
http://www.soundlant...e.do?ToId=33017
*cringes at how poorly its played*

#35 fiddlerjoebob

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 08:25 AM

*cringes at how poorly its played*



Stop it already!

fjb

#36 Hereward

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 08:31 AM

I hear quite an improvement and don't believe you can call this 'murdering' any longer.

have you heard this one though
http://www.soundlant...e.do?ToId=33017
*cringes at how poorly its played*


Your punishment for not believing in yourself is to play this tune two hundred times and then post it. If I were cruel I'd say 300 lines: 'My playing is improving and will continue to improve'.

Please have faith in yourself. We have plenty in you and can hear it paying off.

Ian




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