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Ethics. protocols & obligations in buy/sell


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#19 Ptarmigan

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 05:40 AM

I have nothing against other people wishing to sell on eBay to the highest bidder & so get as much as they possibly can. For all I know that's probably the sensible thing to do but I just reckon there's more to music & instruments - than money.

That's a fine sentiment - but it's dependent on how wealthy you are. I've had to scrimp and save and sell some treasured items to afford my Norman Anglo - so for me music, instruments & money are inseparable. Selling for less than the market price because "there's more to music & instruments - than money" is a luxury I can ill afford. YMMV

Don't worry Woody, that comment certainly wasn't a dig at you, or anyone else who sells on eBay &/or for the current market value. Chris Algar, for example, sells lots of Concertinas on eBay & I have nothing but admiration & respect for him & the work he does.

The fact is, if my Jeffries doesn't sell here, I may well have to try my luck on eBay, where I'm sure there is absolutely no guarantee that it will sell for its current market value.
After all, we've all seen instruments sell for much less than we thought they should be worth.

In any case Woody, I'm sure we'll all be doing our fair bit of scrimping and saving before this darned recession is over. :(

Cheers
Dick

#20 Woody

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 06:22 AM

I have nothing against other people wishing to sell on eBay to the highest bidder & so get as much as they possibly can. For all I know that's probably the sensible thing to do but I just reckon there's more to music & instruments - than money.

That's a fine sentiment - but it's dependent on how wealthy you are. I've had to scrimp and save and sell some treasured items to afford my Norman Anglo - so for me music, instruments & money are inseparable. Selling for less than the market price because "there's more to music & instruments - than money" is a luxury I can ill afford. YMMV

Don't worry Woody, that comment certainly wasn't a dig at you, or anyone else who sells on eBay &/or for the current market value...

That's OK Dick - I'm not worried :)

There is however a tendency on this forum for people to post statements similar to yours which imply the taking of some moral high-ground - indeed it's difficult to interpret them in another way. By implication those that either choose, or who are unable to take the same approach are cast in a detrimental light - an implied accusation of greed.


Many posters on this site are in the financial position to own several top quality instruments, each costing many thousands of pounds/dollars. If you are fortunate enough to be in that position then great - selling for a few hundred pounds/dollars less than market price is no great loss to you and if it makes you feel good about yourself then all the better - more power to yer elbow! However when making such pronouncements, spare a thought for those not in such a fortunate position, and perhaps take under consideration the theory that it is the financial resources of the wealthier element, and their ability to restrict supply through the ownership of multiple instruments, that means that those less well off need to get every penny they can when selling.

#21 Ptarmigan

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 06:44 AM

Many posters on this site are in the financial position to own several top quality instruments, each costing many thousands of pounds/dollars. If you are fortunate enough to be in that position then great - selling for a few hundred pounds/dollars less than market price is no great loss to you and if it makes you feel good about yourself then all the better - more power to yer elbow! However when making such pronouncements, spare a thought for those not in such a fortunate position, and perhaps take under consideration the theory that it is the financial resources of the wealthier element, and their ability to restrict supply through the ownership of multiple instruments, that means that those less well off need to get every penny they can when selling.

Fair enough, point taken, but the fact that I am fortunate enough to own three beautiful Concertinas doesn't necessarily mean I am part of some "wealthier element".

Firstly, I am having to sell one, to be able to buy my latest one, so I'll end up with two again.
Secondly, as full time musicians, my wife & I made the decision years ago, to do without some of what we consider luxuries, but what other folks regard as essential, for example, we haven't been on a real holiday for over twenty years now & there are lots of other little luxuries like that, which we do without, to be able to afford good quality instruments, which in turn help us to do our work. Of course we don't drink or smoke either ... jeez that'd be like just throwing money away!

I guess we all have our priorities, but I don't actually see our good quality instruments as luxuries, I see them more as essential tools of our trade & let's face it, if you want to do a good job, you need good tools, it's as simple as that.

The fact that I have two of some instruments just means that I can guarantee to be able to go out & play when asked.
I'd soon run out of customers if I kept cancelling gigs because my cheap Italian Concertina was once again in for repairs! ;)

I know what you mean though, about the wording of posts on forums. It's so easy to get the wrong end of the stick when you don't actually know the circumstances of the person writing.

Anyway, this is an excellent thread & I'm hoping something very positive will come from it.

Cheers
Dick

#22 Greg Jowaisas

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 10:07 AM

Cheers to Dick for trying to sell his Jeffries with sensitivity.

I don't think it can be done without hurting "someone's" feelings or sense of "fair" play.

But that doesn't mean he shouldn't try.

Some of the feelings and trepidations expressed begin to remind me of another topic from just over a year ago. It began as a question of limited supply and the who and why "deserves" a top quality vintage instrument. From there it suffered a fatal devolution but some of the feelings might apply to the problems of selling in a humane fashion. http://www.concertin...?showtopic=4827

Short of forming an evaluation committee and taking written applications, I think Dick is trying his best.

Greg

Edited by Greg Jowaisas, 29 November 2008 - 10:52 AM.


#23 Robin Harrison

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 10:27 AM

It seems that some posters seem to consider that they're part of a brotherhood (& sisterhood) of Concertina players who have some implied obligation towards each other. Whilst it's nice to all get along on this forum, when I'm selling something my motivation is generally to get the most money I can. Ebay is more impersonal and detached and hence it is my preferred location for selling. Remember - caveat emptor

I'm with Woody on this one..................I've bought and sold both here and on eBay with eBay being the most reliable. I've had two instances here where after a deal has been agreed on, it has not completed.............once through buyers remorse and the second outright dishonesty. The first I have forgiven and forgotten, the second person I am waiting to appear again on this forum to warn anyone who migh deal with him. I will "out" them.
When I buy on eBay, I have found it is often possile to establish some sort of rapport with and understanding of the vendor that reassures me about their motives for selling.Their story must add up. If I feel uncertain about any aspect of it, I will not bid. So far, it's worked OK.
Whilst writing this, I am trying not to feel too world-weary. I too, value the community that we feel on this site. I've actually met and made friends arising from postings here. However I get the feeling sometimes that when as a vendor I agree on a deal, the buyer views this as just putting a "hold" on the instrument. I wonder if hitting the "bid" button on eBay seems to people like more of a commitment than just giving an email agreement.
If things do then go wrong on eBay, it's easier to come and seek solace here rather than wanting to stir up any ill feeling on the forum, no matter how well justified.

the theory that it is the financial resources of the wealthier element, and their ability to restrict supply through the ownership of multiple instruments, that means that those less well off need to get every penny they can when selling.

I can't agree with Woody on this one though :( ....... there is no shortage of top quality vintage English concertinas and no current maker makes them in any quantity................but this needs anothret thread.
Regards Robin

#24 Ptarmigan

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 12:20 PM

Cheers to Dick for trying to sell his Jeffries with sensitivity.

I don't think it can be done without hurting "someone's" feelings or sense of "fair" play.

But that doesn't mean he shouldn't try.

Some of the feelings and trepidations expressed begin to remind me of another topic from just over a year ago. It began as a question of limited supply and the who and why "deserves" a top quality vintage instrument. From there it suffered a fatal devolution but some of the feelings might apply to the problems of selling in a humane fashion. http://www.concertin...?showtopic=4827

Short of forming an evaluation committee and taking written applications, I think Dick is trying his best.

Greg

Thanks Greg,

I'm just coming at this from another angle, an angle which, who knows, may actually put people off bidding for this instrument, but I felt it was certainly worth a try.
Like any deal struck here though, at the end of the day it'll depend on my & the buyer's honesty, for the deal to be struck.

I've simply tried to lay my cards on the table & I hope members can accept them in the spirit they were written.

Now I'm off to read that thread Greg, from the initial post it looks like it might get quite heated! ;)

Cheers
Dick

#25 Ptarmigan

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 12:41 PM

Hi Robin,

I'm with Woody on this one..................I've bought and sold both here and on eBay with eBay being the most reliable. I've had two instances here where after a deal has been agreed on, it has not completed.............once through buyers remorse and the second outright dishonesty. The first I have forgiven and forgotten, the second person I am waiting to appear again on this forum to warn anyone who migh deal with him. I will "out" them.


I'm sorry to hear things didn't work out for you here.
I wonder how often a deal/sale goes sour here?
Does everyone here actually report to management & to other members, when the Buy/Sell forum doesn't work?
If so, and this happens regularly, then clearly the present system is flawed & requires some sort of tweek.
If it is left in a flawed state & nobody here has any faith in it, then why the heck do we even bother with this buy/sell forum at all?


When I buy on eBay, I have found it is often possile to establish some sort of rapport with and understanding of the vendor that reassures me about their motives for selling.Their story must add up. If I feel uncertain about any aspect of it, I will not bid. So far, it's worked OK.

I would have thought that this rapport would already be in place, here, especially when dealing with long standing members with reputations as musicians to maintain.
I haven't bought very many things on eBay myself, but I prefer the idea that my, for years treasured, Concertina will go to an enthusiastic player here rather than off into the eBay ether. Maybe my problem is that I haven't done any selling on eBay & I've bought two Banjos on eBay.


Whilst writing this, I am trying not to feel too world-weary. I too, value the community that we feel on this site. I've actually met and made friends arising from postings here. However I get the feeling sometimes that when as a vendor I agree on a deal, the buyer views this as just putting a "hold" on the instrument. I wonder if hitting the "bid" button on eBay seems to people like more of a commitment than just giving an email agreement.
If things do then go wrong on eBay, it's easier to come and seek solace here rather than wanting to stir up any ill feeling on the forum, no matter how well justified.


Reading this, makes me wonder if perhaps it really is time to lay down a few hard & fast rules of conduct for this Buy/Sell Forum, to help prevent such problems arising in the future?

Mind you, actually drawing up those rules, so that they suit everyone concerned, should be a lot of fun for someone! :P

Cheers
Dick


#26 ragtimer

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 01:32 PM

Reading this, makes me wonder if perhaps it really is time to lay down a few hard & fast rules of conduct for this Buy/Sell Forum, to help prevent such problems arising in the future?

Mind you, actually drawing up those rules, so that they suit everyone concerned, should be a lot of fun for someone! :P

Cheers
Dick

One difference between this Forum and eBay is that each seller who posts can make up his own rules, and should state them in the posting (and of course abide by them afterwards).
For example, I can say "I'm asking $2000 for this concertina, and the first email I get promising to pay me that sum, plus shipping, gets it."
And if nobody wants to pay the asking price, then the best offer I receive within a week. Or whatever.

One universal rule applies, tho -- if someone says they'll pay X dollars, and they win the auction, they had better come thru with the cash.
On eBay, not completing the deal is a serious offense. Here, if the buyer then tells me that a tree fell on his house or something, OK, I have leeway to let him off the hook.

BTW, while I sympathize somewhat with the desire to sell to a practicing musician rather than a collector, how are you going to tell the difference at a distance? And don't some alleged collectors take out their treasures and squeeze them once in a while? If a professional palyer owns 6 boxes and he discovers that he hasn't had his Bb/F out of the case for over a month, does that make him a collector?
--Mike K.

#27 Woody

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 03:29 PM

The things that have made me steer clear of the Buy/Sell section have been the postings of people not actually involved in a transaction but who for some reason feel the compulsion to try to impose their opinion or preach to those that are.

#28 Daniel Hersh

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 04:05 PM

I generally agree with Ragtimer/Mike that the best way to resolve all this might be for each seller to work out his/her own rules before posting and include them in the initial post. I also personally feel that the motivation of the buyer and seller (collector vs. player vs. dealer, etc.) is not as important as whether they are honest in their statements and make good on their commitments to each other.

Daniel

Reading this, makes me wonder if perhaps it really is time to lay down a few hard & fast rules of conduct for this Buy/Sell Forum, to help prevent such problems arising in the future?

Mind you, actually drawing up those rules, so that they suit everyone concerned, should be a lot of fun for someone!

One difference between this Forum and eBay is that each seller who posts can make up his own rules, and should state them in the posting (and of course abide by them afterwards). For example, I can say "I'm asking $2000 for this concertina, and the first email I get promising to pay me that sum, plus shipping, gets it." And if nobody wants to pay the asking price, then the best offer I receive within a week. Or whatever.

One universal rule applies, tho -- if someone says they'll pay X dollars, and they win the auction, they had better come thru with the cash. On eBay, not completing the deal is a serious offense. Here, if the buyer then tells me that a tree fell on his house or something, OK, I have leeway to let him off the hook.

BTW, while I sympathize somewhat with the desire to sell to a practicing musician rather than a collector, how are you going to tell the difference at a distance? And don't some alleged collectors take out their treasures and squeeze them once in a while? If a professional palyer owns 6 boxes and he discovers that he hasn't had his Bb/F out of the case for over a month, does that make him a collector?
--Mike K.



#29 m3838

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 07:52 PM

When one posts item for SALE on the Forum, he/she is invariably using the FORUM.
A forum is there to serve the community (however lose it is), and one of it's functions is to be attractive for potential participants, who perhaps, have nothing better to do than sitting in front of computer screens.
It has proven to be very effective forum, of which Buy and Sell is only a part.
It's OK to use the work of others for personal gain, but that's what it is.
Without active participation this forum will disappear and with it a chance for strangers to use will disappear too.
Too bad they will have to go to other forums, still alive, to take little bite out of them. Again, it's perfectly fine, but that's what it is.
First things first.
Participate, offer, share, bring. There wouldn't be anything, even talk about morality without it.
And yes, those who bring themselves as low, as personal attacks, have no room here or anywhere else.

#30 Leonard

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 08:06 PM

One difference between this Forum and eBay is that each seller who posts can make up his own rules, and should state them in the posting (and of course abide by them afterwards).
For example, I can say "I'm asking $2000 for this concertina, and the first email I get promising to pay me that sum, plus shipping, gets it."
And if nobody wants to pay the asking price, then the best offer I receive within a week. Or whatever.

One universal rule applies, tho -- if someone says they'll pay X dollars, and they win the auction, they had better come thru with the cash.
On eBay, not completing the deal is a serious offense. Here, if the buyer then tells me that a tree fell on his house or something, OK, I have leeway to let him off the hook.

I think the best rule is "no rules at all". Because there's no way to enforce rules, and there is no judge in case of disagreement on the application of the rules. This can only lead to embarrassing public quarrels. Whatever rules you make suggest protection against the risks both buyer and seller take in doing business with unknown individuals, which c.net never can offer.

So IMO, all the B&S forum can offer is a way for sellers and buyers to get in touch. Whatever happens from there is the individual risk and responsibility of the people involved. And the price you pay for your free advertisement (apart from the donation to help keep the site running) is that anyone can comment on your posting. I'd say that's the deal. Take it or leave it.

#31 Ptarmigan

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 04:27 AM

I think the best rule is "no rules at all". Because there's no way to enforce rules, and there is no judge in case of disagreement on the application of the rules. This can only lead to embarrassing public quarrels. Whatever rules you make suggest protection against the risks both buyer and seller take in doing business with unknown individuals, which c.net never can offer.


Whether you apply rules to your sale, or not, you are always going to run the risk of upsetting someone, but the idea of "no rules at all" is fair enough, but surely only from the point of view of Paul & C.net, I do believe that, as has been said above, each seller should clearly state & apply his or her own set of rules to their sale.

After that, as you say, it's down to the honesty of each individual involved in the sale, but surely each sale does need to have a set of rules, however basic, to give prospective buyers the confidence to make an offer in the first place, even if they're just as simple as ...... first come first served & buyer pays the carriage. In that situation, all the Johnny come lately members who arrive too late on the forum to make an offer, should just keep their whinging to themselves ..... as long as the seller has clearly laid out their rules ..... & stuck by them!

Cheers
Dick

#32 Dirge

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 06:55 AM

For me, it is all about self respect, and that comes from keeping your word. All you need to do is keep it, and that sometimes involves some thought, but it's not rocket science.

Like many things, if you can look yourself in the eye when the storm subsides the odds are that your would-be purchasers can too.

#33 Woody

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 08:35 AM

Like many things, if you can look yourself in the eye when the storm subsides the odds are that your would-be purchasers can too.

If they're tall enough ;)

#34 Leonard

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 11:01 AM

Whether you apply rules to your sale, or not, you are always going to run the risk of upsetting someone, but the idea of "no rules at all" is fair enough, but surely only from the point of view of Paul & C.net, I do believe that, as has been said above, each seller should clearly state & apply his or her own set of rules to their sale.

My point is that "no rules at all" is not only the best solution for Paul & C.net, but also the best way to prevent the risk of upsetting anyone.
If we agree, that the seller has the right to sell to whoever he wants, for whatever reason, for whatever price, there's is no justification for indignation for all the potential buyers the seller doesn't want to do business with. That restricts the risks to a one-to-one basis.
Trouble starts, when the seller, in advance or afterwards, explains publicly who he wants to do business with and why. From that moment everybody is entitled to an opinion about it. That's when people get upset.
It's my good right never to sell to anybody involved in ITM, if I hate ITM. Nothing wrong with that, as long as I don't tell anybody. After all, it's my concertina, I'm selling.
You want to treat all prospective buyers fair. That's a good thing. And you can make your own rules to make sure you do. But don't tell me, don't give me a reason to claim afterwards you should have sold that tina to me. :rolleyes:

#35 tombilly

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 03:16 PM

The things that have made me steer clear of the Buy/Sell section have been the postings of people not actually involved in a transaction but who for some reason feel the compulsion to try to impose their opinion or preach to those that are.

I don't know Woody - I think everyone is entitled to express an opinion in a public forum like this, to suggest otherwise is too restrictive. I was quite concerned over aspects of the recent sale of a number of Anglos and whilst I certainly do not wish to open that up again, I am less than impressed by certain people here, due to my perceptions of what transpired. But sure, that's life - and people have to live with their conscience.

#36 Woody

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 06:42 PM

The things that have made me steer clear of the Buy/Sell section have been the postings of people not actually involved in a transaction but who for some reason feel the compulsion to try to impose their opinion or preach to those that are.

I don't know Woody - I think everyone is entitled to express an opinion in a public forum like this, to suggest otherwise is too restrictive. I was quite concerned over aspects of the recent sale of a number of Anglos and whilst I certainly do not wish to open that up again, I am less than impressed by certain people here, due to my perceptions of what transpired. But sure, that's life - and people have to live with their conscience.

There's a difference between "expressing an opinion" and "trying to impose an opinion."




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