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#19 Bill N

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 03:52 PM

Well, so much for the "most friendly, welcoming forum on the web".....


The problem isn't the neophytes per se, it's those among them that ask the same old question, time after time, without ever checking to see if it's already been done ad nauseam.

There is no need for anyone to ever ask the 'What sort of concertina for a beginner?'; the info's there to be read in the forums. I don't think it needs a separate forum so much as a 'You can't post here for the first time until the system has registered that you performed a search.' function.

(/quote]

Better the question is answered nicely, than to put someone off, I agree, but it does get repetitive and seems like a waste of everyone's good intentions. Perhaps 'cut and paste' is the answer?



As a double newbie, whose elementary questions were indeed answered nicely, and in a most welcoming manner, let me add my perspective. By double newbie, I mean that I am new both to the concertina, and on-line forums such as this. I suspect from some comments I've seen in various threads (even from some non-newbies) that not everyone on this forum is super-comfortable with the technology (and etiquitte). In fact, I'd bet this board harbours more than its fair share of card carrying Luddites!

I think an up-dated and clearly labelled FAQs, or "Newbies read this first " page would be a good idea. I found the home page a little bewildering at first, and the info contained appeared out-of-date (eg Rochelle is not really discussed in Buyer's Guide). And the search function didn't seem to work very well for me.


But I would discourage anything that limited the mingling of the tyros and old hands. I have noticed that with the patient forebearance of the veterans, newbies here do seem to get up to speed pretty quickly!

Edited by Bill N, 08 October 2008 - 04:13 PM.


#20 Daniel Bradbury

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 07:09 PM

I have never seen us overloaded with requests for information from newbies. Its not like we get a hundered a day, or month or year even. There is always someone who is willing to welcome a new member and answer their questions. They then feel that they have been accepted to the forum and are more likely to continue participating. If one doesn't want to answer the same old questions, just skip the thread trusting that someone else will be there to provide the requested information.

#21 LDT

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Posted 09 October 2008 - 04:12 AM

Could it be that a search on the basic beginner questions gets thousands of results because the same question is being asked and answered thousands of times? It certainly feels like it. Better the question is answered nicely, than to put someone off, I agree, but it does get repetitive and seems like a waste of everyone's good intentions. Perhaps 'cut and paste' is the answer?

Maybe a bit of housekeeping might solve that problem, and instead of a newbie forum have an 'archive' section for older threads.

As a double newbie, whose elementary questions were indeed answered nicely, and in a most welcoming manner, let me add my perspective. By double newbie, I mean that I am new both to the concertina, and on-line forums such as this. I suspect from some comments I've seen in various threads (even from some non-newbies) that not everyone on this forum is super-comfortable with the technology (and etiquitte). In fact, I'd bet this board harbours more than its fair share of card carrying Luddites!

(I'm joined to about 10 forums and comment regularly on about 5 of them and moderate/admin 2) So I'm not what you would call a newbie to forums. lol! But I still find the search function useless.

Edited by LDT, 09 October 2008 - 04:15 AM.


#22 Anglo-Irishman

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Posted 10 October 2008 - 10:04 AM

...a Newbies subforum. This has proved a great success by being a first stop for the easier questions and reducing the traffic in the general forum where otherwise all such questions go. I find myself wondering if it might work as well here.


Chris,
I agree with most of the precious "speakers" on this motion, who don't really see any benefit in a Newbie Forum. The FAQ alternative has also been mentioned, and here, too, I agree that FAQs are usually out of date and can be misleading. Especially on prices and new developments, e.g. Rochelle & Co.
I believe that the way to become a concertinist is to rub shoulders with concertinists. And a few of us have only recently emerged from the newbie stage ourselves, and are proud to be able to give someone else the benefit of our newly-acquired wisdom.

And anyway, what's a newbie?

Someone who's seen a neat little instrument, knows it's called a concertina, and wants to learn more? Let him read through the General Questions section.

Or is it someone who's inherited a run-down concertina and might like to have it done up, or do it up himself? Let him ask on Construction and Repair.

Or has he handled a concertina, tried it out, liked it, learned to play it a little, and decided to get one of his own? Go to Buy and Sell!

Or has someone bought a concertian and tutor, and doesn't seem to be making progress, despite enthusiasm? Teaching and Learning is the place to go.

Others might want to know what this newly-discovered instrument can be used for before embarking on the adventure - they can do this in Videos and Music.

Basically, each existing sub-forum is suitable for some newbie! The newbies are as different as we are - we don't all have to look after each newbie!
And I've never seen a newbie question ignored since I've been in the forum.

Cheers,
John

#23 Chris Timson

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 05:09 AM

The reason I suggested it is that on those forums I use that have adopted it, it works well. I can't see why it would not work equally as well here. But that's the pragmatic approach, and that's never been all that popular.

One day in ancient Greece a bunch of philosophers were arguing about how many teeth there were in the mouth of a horse. One would say a number together with good reasons to support it, than another would propound a diffwerent number. The argument got heated and eventually they collared a passer by and put all their arguments to him and asked him to decide. He thought for a moment, then left the room. A few mintes later he returned and gave them the correct answer (between 36 and 44, depending on age, if you're interested). They asked him what reasoning had convinced him of this. "Reason be damned", he replied, "I've just been out and counted 'em".

With regard to the FAQ, yes, in some areas it is definitely been getting a bit long in the tooth (hah!). I've been meaning to give it a complete overhaul for a little while, it's just a question of finding the time. But it will happen.

Chris

#24 LDT

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 06:11 AM

With regard to the FAQ, yes, in some areas it is definitely been getting a bit long in the tooth (hah!). I've been meaning to give it a complete overhaul for a little while, it's just a question of finding the time. But it will happen.

Chris

Well I'm sure with everyone's help it would take less time. :)
Anything I could help with?

#25 chris

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 06:12 AM

So who's going to count the horse's teeth and how?:ph34r:
chris

#26 LDT

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 06:32 AM

One day in ancient Greece a bunch of philosophers were arguing about how many teeth there were in the mouth of a horse. One would say a number together with good reasons to support it, than another would propound a diffwerent number. The argument got heated and eventually they collared a passer by and put all their arguments to him and asked him to decide. He thought for a moment, then left the room. A few mintes later he returned and gave them the correct answer (between 36 and 44, depending on age, if you're interested). They asked him what reasoning had convinced him of this. "Reason be damned", he replied, "I've just been out and counted 'em".



So who's going to count the horse's teeth and how?:ph34r:
chris


I wonder if he would have counted the teeth if they had been discussing how many a lion had ;) :blink: lol

#27 Chris Timson

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 06:51 AM

Well I'm sure with everyone's help it would take less time. :)
Anything I could help with?

Thanks for the offer, but I just need time to rethink and rewite some of the sections. I have thought of asking for help, and will do if I find I just don't have the time to do it properly.

So who's going to count the horse's teeth and how?

Fancy you not knowing that!

Chris

#28 chris

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 09:11 AM

So who's going to count the horse's teeth and how?

Fancy you not knowing that!
Doh :(

chris (other)
this made no sense due to me missing Mr Timsons name off the quote. Sorry 'bout that

Edited by chris, 16 October 2008 - 01:53 PM.


#29 Anglo-Irishman

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 12:57 PM

Well I'm sure with everyone's help it would take less time. :)
Anything I could help with?

Thanks for the offer, but I just need time to rethink and rewite some of the sections. I have thought of asking for help, and will do if I find I just don't have the time to do it properly.

So who's going to count the horse's teeth and how?

Fancy you not knowing that!

Chris


Chris,
What about a "breathing" FAQ?

What I mean is technically a sub-forum to which anyone can append, with a title like "Beginners' Info" or "All you ever wanted to know about the concertina but were too embarrassed to ask" (preferably the former :lol: )

When someone recalls a problem he or she had at the start, they could start a new topic. Or if a newbie asks an interesting question on one of the main sub-forums, the answer, or a collective answer, could be copied to a new topic in the "beginners' Info". Similarly when news comes up that might interest newbies, like a new entry-level concertina, or a teaching DVD.

Being a sub-forum the newest topics would be at the top, so any topical info, like prices, would be read before the outdated posts. Also, if the FAQ answers generated more questions than knowledge, a posting asking for clarification would be indicated in the index.

This would solve one newbie problem: on a forum with such heavy taffic as c.net, topics percolate down off the first screen pretty quickly. As a newcomer, you may arrive just after some info that would have been helpful to you has been debated at length and disappeared down the list. A Beginners' sub-forum could keep it visible.

Just some thoughts,
Cheers,
John

#30 Daniel Hersh

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 11:20 PM

I for one did not mean to imply that I was against the idea of a forum along these lines. If one were set up I would participate in replying to questions that are within my areas of knowledge.

Daniel

The reason I suggested it is that on those forums I use that have adopted it, it works well. I can't see why it would not work equally as well here. But that's the pragmatic approach, and that's never been all that popular.

One day in ancient Greece a bunch of philosophers were arguing about how many teeth there were in the mouth of a horse. One would say a number together with good reasons to support it, than another would propound a diffwerent number. The argument got heated and eventually they collared a passer by and put all their arguments to him and asked him to decide. He thought for a moment, then left the room. A few mintes later he returned and gave them the correct answer (between 36 and 44, depending on age, if you're interested). They asked him what reasoning had convinced him of this. "Reason be damned", he replied, "I've just been out and counted 'em".

With regard to the FAQ, yes, in some areas it is definitely been getting a bit long in the tooth (hah!). I've been meaning to give it a complete overhaul for a little while, it's just a question of finding the time. But it will happen.

Chris


Edited by Daniel Hersh, 16 October 2008 - 11:21 PM.


#31 Chris Timson

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Posted 20 October 2008 - 06:45 AM

What I mean is technically a sub-forum to which anyone can append, with a title like "Beginners' Info" or "All you ever wanted to know about the concertina but were too embarrassed to ask" (preferably the former :lol: )

When someone recalls a problem he or she had at the start, they could start a new topic. Or if a newbie asks an interesting question on one of the main sub-forums, the answer, or a collective answer, could be copied to a new topic in the "beginners' Info". Similarly when news comes up that might interest newbies, like a new entry-level concertina, or a teaching DVD.

That would meet many of the aims of a Newbies forum as I would see them, so far as I can see, with perhaps a less condescending name. I would certainly welcome it. Let us hope our esteemed administrators agree. Ken and Paul, pretty please?

Chris

#32 m3838

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Posted 20 October 2008 - 01:08 PM

What I mean is technically a sub-forum to which anyone can append, with a title like "Beginners' Info" or "All you ever wanted to know about the concertina but were too embarrassed to ask" (preferably the former :lol: )

When someone recalls a problem he or she had at the start, they could start a new topic. Or if a newbie asks an interesting question on one of the main sub-forums, the answer, or a collective answer, could be copied to a new topic in the "beginners' Info". Similarly when news comes up that might interest newbies, like a new entry-level concertina, or a teaching DVD.

That would meet many of the aims of a Newbies forum as I would see them, so far as I can see, with perhaps a less condescending name. I would certainly welcome it. Let us hope our esteemed administrators agree. Ken and Paul, pretty please?

Chris


Easy enough to start a new topic on Learning forum, called "The Newbies questions". See how many people will go there. There is always a way to improvise by yourself and get the result. No need to wait for somebody to make it happen for you.
Funny that I (been from initiative challenged culture) should mention it.

#33 Chris Timson

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 03:04 AM

Funny that I (been from initiative challenged culture) should mention it.

You? Initiative challenged? Nay, nay, come come!

Chris

PS the reason why a forum may be desirable rather than a thread is that threads disappear if not used much. A newbies thread could be very popular, and yet if not used for one period of a few weeks would sink out of sight under the weight of later threads, and many newbies appear to be new to computers and fora as well, with the result that many have never discovered the significance of the search buttons.

Edited by Chris Timson, 21 October 2008 - 03:09 AM.


#34 Dave Rogers

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 05:36 AM

PS the reason why a forum may be desirable rather than a thread is that threads disappear if not used much. A newbies thread could be very popular, and yet if not used for one period of a few weeks would sink out of sight under the weight of later threads, and many newbies appear to be new to computers and fora as well, with the result that many have never discovered the significance of the search buttons.


Why not just "Pin" the Newbies thread permanently at the top of the page? Another forum I visit (on a non-musical subject) does this, and they use the same software as Concertina.net

#35 LDT

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 05:43 AM

PS the reason why a forum may be desirable rather than a thread is that threads disappear if not used much. A newbies thread could be very popular, and yet if not used for one period of a few weeks would sink out of sight under the weight of later threads, and many newbies appear to be new to computers and fora as well, with the result that many have never discovered the significance of the search buttons.


Why not just "Pin" the Newbies thread permanently at the top of the page? Another forum I visit (on a non-musical subject) does this, and they use the same software as Concertina.net


on Timelord we have a stikied locked thread
http://timelord.yuku.com/topic/3171
with a introduction for newbies.
do you mean something like that?

#36 Dave Rogers

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 05:55 AM

on Timelord we have a stikied locked thread
http://timelord.yuku.com/topic/3171
with a introduction for newbies.
do you mean something like that?


Yus. :)




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