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English V Anglo


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#37 Ptarmigan

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Posted 21 September 2008 - 06:31 PM

Good Luck with your Anglo journey Chris.

I'm just about to go the other way & start out on an English journey, after playing Anglo for nearly 30 years!

However, I have no intention of not playing Anglo in the future.

I actually want to play both, using them for different sessions & different music.

Perhaps we could swop notes after a few months & see how the change has come to each of us?

Cheers
Dick

Of my three squeezeboxes, English was the easiest to learn,

Thanks Michael, as an Anglo player who has just bought his first English, that is music to my ears! :D

I play Irish music on English concertina for many years now, and although I was often advised to turn to Anglo instead I never did.

Fair play chiton, & to hell with the begrudgers I say. Stick to your guns.

What is lacking is technique English players tend to get into a habit of not playing a note crisply, but slightly slurring one note into the next.The art of just touching the button to get a crisp note seems to be lost from a very early age in English playing techniques.

Interesting Alan, I'll watch out for that trap!

#38 tombilly

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 04:08 AM

[/quote]Of course, ITM , like OTM in the US, is a vested interest of AC teachers and AC builders, among others, so they have an interest in regulation. And apparently, in their opinion, a concertina that wants to be ITM has to sound like an AC. [/quote]

Does the answer to this question not lie in the reality, that all the leading concertina players, playing ITM, play it on an anglo. It's as simple as that, isn't it?

#39 Mark Evans

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 05:34 AM

Does the answer to this question not lie in the reality, that all the leading concertina players, playing ITM, play it on an anglo. It's as simple as that, isn't it?


For you yes. I'm unconcerned with the world class Irish AC players, other than God bless em' they're fantastic! I'm not a world class anything...just me. Although I have been called a world class arse! :P

AC took up a lot of my time and I was just laboring along playing the damned thing with oven mits on. There I would be trying to make music with fine musicians who wanted to make music with me, but all I could do was bump and wheez along like a Model A Ford on it's last legs.

The EC was after being shown a C scale, like someone turned the lights on! Never looked back, never will...and I will always play Irish music with whoever will sit down with me and share a pint and a lie or two. It has worked out very well thus far.

Edited by Mark Evans, 22 September 2008 - 05:35 AM.


#40 MUTT

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 12:32 AM

I will always play Irish music with whoever will sit down with me and share a pint and a lie or two. It has worked out very well thus far.


And so may it always. Life gets complicated enough; traditional music is about simplicity, to me anyway. Let the "Trad Police" rave on (not referring to anyone posting on this thread :)) . Play the music that stirs you with what you have at hand; that is what moves the stuff from generation to generation, and nothing else.

#41 tombilly

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 03:39 AM

Oh, I agree with you Mark, of course. The most important thing at the end of the day is playing a bit of music not what instrument you choose to play it on.

#42 m3838

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 11:39 AM

Does the answer to this question not lie in the reality, that all the leading concertina players, playing ITM, play it on an anglo. It's as simple as that, isn't it?


For you yes. I'm unconcerned with the world class Irish AC players, other than God bless em' they're fantastic! I'm not a world class anything...just me. Although I have been called a world class arse! :P


For one, not ALL ITM leading players play Anglo.
For two, I would doubt the title "World Class Irish AC players". It's an oxymoron. As far as I can tell, Leading ITM AC (wow!) players are as far from been "World Class Players" as any Joe-Shmoe, picking a melody with one finger on Piano. Not that they HAVE TO be, actually I think they DON'T NEED TO be. The closer they get to "world class", the less of a traditional players they are.
But I just disagree with throwing the compliments, that don't belong. Unless, of course, you are fine with people laughing at us, once again.

#43 David Levine

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 01:39 PM

For one, not ALL ITM leading players play Anglo.
For two, I would doubt the title "World Class Irish AC players". It's an oxymoron. As far as I can tell, Leading ITM AC (wow!) players are as far from been "World Class Players" as any Joe-Shmoe, picking a melody with one finger on Piano. Not that they HAVE TO be, actually I think they DON'T NEED TO be. The closer they get to "world class", the less of a traditional players they are.
But I just disagree with throwing the compliments, that don't belong. Unless, of course, you are fine with people laughing at us, once again.


I don't know whether I should be cross or just reject this as laughable. All ITM players who are "leading" players on concertina play Anglo. I don't know of any "leading" ITM concertina player who plays EC, or any other concertina than Anglo. (The T in ITM stands for Traditional)

Noel Hill, Tim Collins, Michael O'Rhaillagh, Naill Vallely are all world-class Anglo players. They travel the world and are accepted as wonderful musicians. They are also solidly within the tradition. To say "The closer they get to "world class", the less of a traditional players they are." is just silly. Do you mean that traditional players lack technique or sophistication? Are you saying that being world class -- being good and excelling at what he does -- moves a player away from traditional music? If so, please don't tell Ravi Shankar or Matt Molloy or B.B. King.

Re: "As far as I can tell, Leading ITM AC (wow!) players are as far from been "World Class Players" as any Joe-Shmoe, picking a melody with one finger on Piano."
Sorry, but you can't tell very much. Or haven't listened carefully. Or just don't know enough to tell when the music is good and when it isn't. To say that traditional music is like "any Joe-Shmoe, picking a melody with one finger on Piano" shows incredible ignorance. Especially on a music forum. It's hard to believe somebody posting on this site would say something like that.

As far as being "...fine with people laughing at us..." Posted Image Posted Image Posted ImagePosted Image I think that you are the only one being laughed at here. Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

#44 Mark Evans

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 02:04 PM

Now that's the tenor I'm used to on this subject <_< .

After I've had my second Old Speckled Hen with me fish and chips at Stone's tonight and we've rolled through several groups of tunes and I've sung a few and started another afore mentioned pint....I'll think on this not again.

It's been a frustrating bastard of a day at the job site and I can't wait to rip into the Virginia and Abbey reels and watch as Connie starts tapping her feet back and forth and she and her son Graham start bowing in unison. The world will again be balanced...nirvana reached.

#45 Boney

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 02:20 PM

I think Mischa is right when he says "The closer they get to "world class", the less of a traditional players they are" -- at least using HIS yardstick. He has mentioned several times he doesn't really like Irish music much. His yardstick is based much more on western classical music values. When a player rates higher on that scale, they are most likely less traditional. I know I miss out on a lot of subtlety of lilt, rhythmic drive, melodic variation and the like which are so elusive but essential to the best Irish music, because I haven't immersed myself in Irish music, or made any great study of it. But I can hear and appreciate subtleties in it much more than I could a few years ago. In any case, not everone values or responds to the same things in music, and that's completely normal. People resonate with different styles of painting or literature too. I think his only mistake is to come across too strong in asserting that there is nothing there that others could possibly notice and value.

#46 Azalin

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 05:16 PM

Wow, I saw this thread late, but the clips of clunktrip are awesome. I didnt know it was possible to play irish music like this on an english. To be honnest, so far the irish tunes I heard on an english never had that swing that make irish music interesting to me.

I get the feeling that you need to be very, very talented to play irish music the 'right way' on an english.

Heck, I am being provocative? I do hope so! :lol:

#47 Alan Day

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 05:37 PM

I still cannot agree that the English is not capable of fantastic Irish Traditional Music playing ,just because the Anglo is played by what is recognised as the best Concertina players of the music and they play an Anglo, it still does not necessarily mean that the music cannot be played equally as well on an English.It is more that the English at the moment is not accepted by Ireland as the Concertina to play their music on, because of the recent tradition (in Irish music terms) of the Anglo.
When playing the fiddle, players do not always use the full length of the bow to play a tune. They do not play 8 Bars of the tune in one direction and then 8 bars on the way back.There are bowing techniques to achieve the sound they are after.So why is it that English playing techniques, used by some, are based on the principle of maximum push of the bellows for 8 bars and maximum pull for the next 8.If they had ten fold bellows would they play half the tune 16 bars on the push and the rest on the pull. An Anglo can be played in many ways and so can the English,it only needs one superb player to open the door.

Let us enjoy the playing and the discussions.
My hat is in the ring now shoot it full of holes.

"Two Speckled Hens and Fish and Chips" Mark .You know how to live !!
Al

#48 David Levine

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 02:22 AM

Good morning Al. I agree with you on this:

...just because the Anglo is played by what is recognized as the best Concertina players
of the music and they play an Anglo, it still does not necessarily mean that the music
cannot be played equally as well on an English.


The music changes and part of that change perhaps is to make music with what lies at hand.
I know that when I switched from EC to AC years ago my playing took on a new character.
But had I persisted with EC who knows. So as Ptarmigan says, to hell with the begrudgers.
Squeeze on, on whatever you play.

#49 m3838

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 04:12 AM

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
The above reel is very telling, isn't it?
So no, NOT ALL leading ITM players play Anglo, unless I'm mistaken about the given clip, and it's not a leading player, the music is not ITM, or is far away from what is considered ITM by some.


Noel Hill, Tim Collins, Michael O'Rhaillagh, Naill Vallely are all world-class Anglo players.

Yes, I agree. I also agree, that a young piano player, conservatory graduate, any, will play circles around even Nail Valley technically. And it's been shown every time when Nail plays with piano accompaniment, and lets pianist to have a lead. No matter how fast or complex Nail's playing is, pianist is faster and more complex. And they are a far cry from World class piano players. But we have covered it before, only very stubborn people with cardboard ears can't hear the difference in subtle detailing world class musicians are capable of, in comparison to simple homegrown folk stars. Each field demands it's standards.

To say "The closer they get to "world class", the less of a traditional players they are." is just silly. Do you mean that traditional players lack technique or sophistication?

Not so silly (thank you), and yes, they do lack technique and especially sophistication. Part of it is their training, that doesn't have formality and strict quality bars, part is their instruments, that are not designed for such performance. Part is the music, that has very different appeal, part is not having to be universal players.
A world class musician may not be always exciting to listen to, but can play anything at any given time in any given key or level of complexity (within reason).
A traditional musician is only capable of such things within the tunnel of music he is accustomed with. A blessed one he is.
So the phrases: "World class Jew's harp player", or "World class bones player" are really meaningless on a World scale.
But it's the good thing, to have something unique, that World Class has nothing to do with. Why do you even want to emphasize that childish wish to have Concertina accepted by the World? Who cares?

As far as I can tell, Leading ITM AC (wow!) players are as far from been "World Class Players" as any Joe-Shmoe, picking a melody with one finger on Piano.

Sorry, but you can't tell very much.

I'm very glad you know how to maintain yourself during a discussion. But it's the old news.
I'd suggest you give Glenn Gould another listening and then switch to Nail Valley. But it's futile.
Yes, people do laugh at clowns, especially at those, who don't realize it. Especially pitiful is the necessity to add: "World Class CONCERTINA player". It just sells immediately the unintended excuse for lower level.
Once again, Traditional Folk music is designed not to be listened to, but played and participated in. Nuances and sophistication have nothing to do with it. The more of the above you got, the farther you get from the tradition, the less people can participate, more technical demand is placed on you, and more formality you need in your education. And what is left is "folk" dance performed by Ballet dancers on central stages, with symphony orchestra accompaniment.
River Dance doesn't represent ITM.
But don't despair, Moiseev Folk Ensemble doesn't represent Russian traditional dance just as well. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

P.S.
Boney, I didn't really say that I don't like Irish music, I just said I can't listen to it unaccompanied for long. I said a few times, that young generation of Irish players will make folks like Noel Hill try harder.

#50 Boney

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 06:00 AM

A world class musician may not be always exciting to listen to, but can play anything at any given time in any given key or level of complexity (within reason).
A traditional musician is only capable of such things within the tunnel of music he is accustomed with.

Then why is it that James Galway sounds ridiculous when he tries to play traditional irish tunes? It's because he can't. You seem to think that just because a violinist, for example, can play the most complex Bach composition with effortless fluidity, that he can play convincing old-time fiddle. That is not the case. And even a great classical guitarist can't play like Jimi Hendrix. It's not a question of virtuosity. It's a question of feel, style, energy, and more. It takes a rare person to pull off playing the pipes like Johnny Doran, or playing fiddle like Michael Coleman. True, the music they played wasn't as "sophisticated" in an art-music sense as those of classical composers. But the subtleties, drive, lilt, energy, passion, and skill they put into it was as impressive as any great musician who has ever lived.

PS: I said you didn't really like it much, not that you disliked it. Which I think is fairly apparent from your posting history.

Edited by Boney, 24 September 2008 - 06:01 AM.


#51 Anglo-Irishman

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 06:24 AM

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
The above reel is very telling, isn't it?
So no, NOT ALL leading ITM players play Anglo, unless I'm mistaken about the given clip, and it's not a leading player, the music is not ITM, or is far away from what is considered ITM by some.


Misha,

It could well be that you are mistaken ;)

What I saw and heard on this clip was a Scotsman playing a couple of reels (of what nationality would be hard to determine) on an English concertina. And playing them very well, with steady tempo, good phrasing, inventive little variations, especially in preparation for the transition to the second tune. A certain degree of sophistication, yes, but not too much to overpower the obviously traditional material. It had a nice flow to it, reminiscent of the pipes - something which tends to be lacking on the Anglo, unless the player is very, very good.

I really enjoyed listening to it.

To me, this is traditional music - rendering the musical material of your culture on an instrument that you happen to play, and which happens to lend itself to that kind of material.

In Ireland, the instrumentation has never been cast in concrete. Any instrument that comes along and - important - can be demonstrated to be capable of rendering the traditional material, can get to be "traditional" (though not ITM, which is a different concept). The most recent example is the Greek bouzouki, and before that, the guitar. The last new instrument before that must have been the Anglo concertia. Like the keyless concert flute, it had been there for some time, but for an entirely different kind of music. A couple of players demonstrated that you could play jigs and reels on it, and it got the popular stamp of approval. They did not demonstrate that you can't play jigs and reels on other types of concertina, because the other types, for historical reasons, weren't there.

Players like Thoughmire certainly demonstrate that the EC - in the right hands - is adequate for this kind of dance music. It may require differnt techniques from the Anglo - but then, the Anglo requires different techniques from the fiddle, pipes and flute!

Cheers,
John

#52 Azalin

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 07:23 AM

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
The above reel is very telling, isn't it?
So no, NOT ALL leading ITM players play Anglo, unless I'm mistaken about the given clip, and it's not a leading player, the music is not ITM, or is far away from what is considered ITM by some.


What I see here is someone with great talent who doesnt really try to play irish style and would not want to anyway. It's the type of stuff that would drive me nuts after a few minutes but I still think is a genius in what he does.

But those of you who think this is good ITM, well, maybe you're an english player trying to play irish? :rolleyes:

#53 Mark Evans

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 07:31 AM

James Galway sounds ridiculous...


:ph34r: Zamphir, Yani, Rampal, Galway all do their own thing. It is not my taste in any genre.

My taste; questionable? Absolutely. I took some slagging off from colleagues last night for my preference for Old Speckled Hen over that black, thick brew they are so fond of.

Edited by Mark Evans, 24 September 2008 - 07:57 AM.


#54 Laitch

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 08:01 AM

The closer they get to "world class", the less of a traditional players they are.

To most native English language speakers, the adjective "world-class" means "at the highest level of skill in the category being considered" not "at the highest level of all categories of everything in the World". The category David was considering was "Anglo concertina players of traditional Irish music" not "all musicians in the World who play any type of instrument in any category of music." To a native English language speaker it is a less wordy way of saying "really, really, really, good at what he does"

Use of the adjective "world-class" helps reduce carbon dioxide emissions by lessening wordiness-based exertion. Its usage should be understood and encouraged by all non-native speakers to help reduce global warming.



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