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#19 Miasmamann

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 03:57 PM

BTW, a typical accordion (actually 2 reeds in one plate) is 16mm wide with the length varying due to pitch. For instance the D which is 3 octaves above middle C is 30mm long and the C below middle C is 52 mm long.


Thank you for your toil (is this the right word?) to help me :)

I will try to do a rough layout on how i thought to do the reedpositioning but i am not sure about the notes on the concertina, if they are C or c or c'' and so on (Question: lowest tone on 30 button Anglo = C and highest note = f#'' ... compared with this table from harmonika.cz C = 43,4 tongue lenght 17,8 mm tongue lenght ? ).

#20 wntrmute

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 04:39 PM

Bandoneon or 'long plate' reeds are different from the accordion reeds Rich was talking about. i think you would be better off with two plates on each side, like the arrangement in my goofy Anglo-Chemnitzer.

#21 m3838

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 07:34 PM

Bandoneon or 'long plate' reeds are different from the accordion reeds Rich was talking about. i think you would be better off with two plates on each side, like the arrangement in my goofy Anglo-Chemnitzer.

Yes, or for simplicity and price sake, with accordion type reed banks.
Then you'll have levers of equal size and lenth, just like in Bandoneon. Anglo Concertina IS a Bandoneon, only minimalistic.
Some say small size may negatively affect the sonority, if you use accordion reeds, but my small Schvizer orgele has very mellow and rich sound. May be it's because it's pitched to E.

#22 Miasmamann

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 10:06 PM

Bandoneon or 'long plate' reeds are different from the accordion reeds Rich was talking about. i think you would be better off with two plates on each side, like the arrangement in my goofy Anglo-Chemnitzer.

Yes, or for simplicity and price sake, with accordion type reed banks.
Then you'll have levers of equal size and lenth, just like in Bandoneon. Anglo Concertina IS a Bandoneon, only minimalistic.
Some say small size may negatively affect the sonority, if you use accordion reeds, but my small Schvizer orgele has very mellow and rich sound. May be it's because it's pitched to E.


I want to use the bandoneon reeds (reedplates) if i can get some... i have done some work in 3D (only a first concept ... may take some time to load):

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

it is tight but imho possible ...
One more question somebody maybe has an answer for: How big is the amplitude of the big reeds (43 mm ca.)?

Posted Image

Edited by Miasmamann, 11 June 2008 - 10:23 PM.


#23 m3838

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 10:56 PM

Looks quite innovative and clever.
So you're building a single reed mini Bandoneon/Chemnitzer with 5 button core layout with 3 rows.
Awsome! You probably don't need chizelled corners to better accomodate the reeds.
You may not even need the third row. For simplicity sake you can make 2 row version with 6 buttons in each row. You'll have 4 buttons and 8 accidentals, plus 1 more in the second row, so you'll be fully chromatic with just two rows.

#24 Miasmamann

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 11:30 PM

Looks quite innovative and clever.
So you're building a single reed mini Bandoneon/Chemnitzer with 5 button core layout with 3 rows.
Awsome! You probably don't need chizelled corners to better accomodate the reeds.
You may not even need the third row. For simplicity sake you can make 2 row version with 6 buttons in each row. You'll have 4 buttons and 8 accidentals, plus 1 more in the second row, so you'll be fully chromatic with just two rows.


Was that ironic?
Even if it is not innovative, i do not care. I am not very familiar with different free-reed-instruments and even lesser with their conctructin and i do not know if this would be a bandoneon - or chemnitzer or whatever-desig, it is just what i thought would need the fewest space without changing the design of the chamfered corners. (I do not want to argue about how things "have to be done", i only want to build an instrument that is playable with the same buttons as a anglo-concertina and that is small and looks good. I am not a professional, it will be far away of beeing a high end high quality instrument, but i never had this demand.

#25 Richard Morse

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 08:48 AM

One more question somebody maybe has an answer for: How big is the amplitude of the big reeds (43 mm ca.)?
Posted Image

It's not just the reed's excursion.... you have to consider for air turbulence and the other reed's valve clearance. Taking all that into consideration a reasonable dimension from the top of the reedplate to the other side of the chamber should be about 10mm.

Keep in mind that the reeds should be installed with the reed tips opposite the pad hole... which means that you'll need that 10mm depth there (your design currently shows those ends of the chambers coming down to zero depth). But adding that depth there is easy. Probably the simplest way is to do what accordion makers do: reverse your setup such that two adjacent rows of reeds are back-to-back". That way they will make a steep tapered bank (or block) into the center of the bellows rather than be thick/close to the sides of the bellows.

Also keep in mind that you need that same 10mm clearance between the reeds NOT in the chamber, between them and each other, and the bellows.

-- Rich --


Posted Image



#26 Miasmamann

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 09:40 AM

It's not just the reed's excursion.... you have to consider for air turbulence and the other reed's valve clearance. Taking all that into consideration a reasonable dimension from the top of the reedplate to the other side of the chamber should be about 10mm.

Keep in mind that the reeds should be installed with the reed tips opposite the pad hole... which means that you'll need that 10mm depth there (your design currently shows those ends of the chambers coming down to zero depth). But adding that depth there is easy. Probably the simplest way is to do what accordion makers do: reverse your setup such that two adjacent rows of reeds are back-to-back". That way they will make a steep tapered bank (or block) into the center of the bellows rather than be thick/close to the sides of the bellows.

Also keep in mind that you need that same 10mm clearance between the reeds NOT in the chamber, between them and each other, and the bellows.

-- Rich --



Thank you, that is a very helpfull explanation :)
I will write a new email to harmonika.cz today and if i will get no answer in a week or so i will try to call them (talking english is much more harder for me than writing... :( ).

Edited by Miasmamann, 12 June 2008 - 09:41 AM.


#27 Henrik Müller

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 10:04 AM

... and Henrik Müller ... they bear the blame that i want to try building a concertina myself. ;) Thanks.

Huuh - I feel so guilty :P but if one wants to demoralize people I can think of worse ways :D .
Cool with 3D tools -
Viel glück!
/Henrik

#28 m3838

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 12:11 PM

Looks quite innovative and clever.
So you're building a single reed mini Bandoneon/Chemnitzer with 5 button core layout with 3 rows.
Awsome! You probably don't need chizelled corners to better accomodate the reeds.
You may not even need the third row. For simplicity sake you can make 2 row version with 6 buttons in each row. You'll have 4 buttons and 8 accidentals, plus 1 more in the second row, so you'll be fully chromatic with just two rows.


Was that ironic?

Not at all. It is innovative. I like the idea of trianglular reed banks. Not sure it will work, as all others never made them, so it can be conservatism on makers' part, or need for particular chamber dimentions for reeds to sound. I kind of suspect conservatism plays bigger role.
And while you are building it, and it takes so much time, why not make it as best as you can?
I think Anglo concertina as we know it today is a small single reed instrument with flat reed chambers. A Bandoneon is multi-voice variation of German 20 butotn Konzertina with long plates that often mounted vertically on reed banks. So sonority is different.
So you are building square Anglo with Bandoneon-like reed plates. I think it's long overdue. I just don't understant why you want as little space as possible? There certainly is an optimal size, making it bigger or smaller is counterproductive, but if you are to proceed with construction, you'll sort it out.

Edited by m3838, 12 June 2008 - 12:12 PM.


#29 Miasmamann

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 10:14 AM

After talking to some people (and after getting some very very beautyfull dark-oxblood-brown leather) i changed my plans a little bit. The first Tina i will make will be a more traditional hexagonal design (depending on what reeds i can get, first a miniature wih 8 or 10 buttons to practise the building process and then a 30 button).
And the square Design? Postponed is not abandoned.

Edited by Miasmamann, 14 June 2008 - 10:20 AM.


#30 m3838

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 12:20 PM

After talking to some people (and after getting some very very beautyfull dark-oxblood-brown leather) i changed my plans a little bit. The first Tina i will make will be a more traditional hexagonal design (depending on what reeds i can get, first a miniature wih 8 or 10 buttons to practise the building process and then a 30 button).
And the square Design? Postponed is not abandoned.

What people were you talking to?
Hexagon was an apporximation of cylinder, in believe that radial placement of reeds will result in even tone. It was a mistake. If you are planning to use accordion reeds in the reedbanks, hexagon will result in unnecessarily large size, unused space inside, or crazy arrangement of reeds with resulting uneven lenghth of levers. Then you'll need uneven springs to make all action even. Why bother?
A square design of yours looks very unique, pretty, convenient. Instead of building it with 10 buttons, why not make 1/half row instrument, with 16 buttons.
5 in each side for main row, and 3 on the second half row? You'll end up with fully chromatic instrument, suitable for any type of music. Make it pitched in G, for better sonority. The only reason they build it in Hexagon shape is to make it look like antique. Customers want it. It's like making modern automobile looking like a steam engine. If most buyers would like it, they'll be made like this.
If you are building it for yourself, why listen to market oriented?
And if you want antuque looking, why not just buy one?

#31 wntrmute

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 01:10 PM

If you look at the pictures on this site of the Henry Harleys and my goofy Hexogonal Chemnitzer, you'll see that the earliest German made concertinas used the long plate reeds, and these were laid flat on top of their reed chambers.
A hexogonal design would allow you to have two reed plates per side with 8 pairs on one and 7 pairs on the other (for a 30 button design). Well, you could do that with a square design, too.
The reed chambers would be about 1cm deep, maybe a bit more.
So this is actually a very traditional design concept. I do like that you would be using English type wire action, though. I suspect that would make for a quicker action.

#32 Miasmamann

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 02:28 PM

"If you are building it for yourself, why listen to market oriented?"
I do not :)
I am listening to my own gusto. I have many ideas for differnet designs (shape, coloring etc. ... f.e. a complete transparent tina, a tine made out of amber (that would fit into the amberroom perfectly) etc.) but i can only build one instrument at once (because the material is not inexpensive and i am poor). One of the designs i have in mind and that was supposed to be my second concertina is hexagonal (or 5-sided, 5-sided desin is a very strong design concerning proportion and geometric balance) auburn colored concertina with copper-ends... and i puchased this really beautiful piece of goat-leather in a dark oxblood-tone that would fit perfect for this one by auction.

"And if you want antuque looking, why not just buy one?"
Because, and i know it sound arrogant :) , i can do a better design job imho. (Plus: They are too expensive for me).

#33 m3838

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 03:01 PM

If you look at the pictures on this site of the Henry Harleys and my goofy Hexogonal Chemnitzer, you'll see that the earliest German made concertinas used the long plate reeds, and these were laid flat on top of their reed chambers.
A hexogonal design would allow you to have two reed plates per side with 8 pairs on one and 7 pairs on the other (for a 30 button design). Well, you could do that with a square design, too.

Firstly I don't see how English style design is any faster than traditional German. I'm yet to see any English concertina player, who is faster than Mexican or Russian accordion player, and secondly I don't understand how you can fit more rectangles in to a circle, as compared to larger rectangle. :blink:
Look at Rochelle/Jackie. There's ton of empty space inside, but absolutely no space to fit any more reedbanks. And if you start laying reed flat and offsetting them, you'll have a mayhem with lever lenghs and their mutual intersections.
And if this doesn't matter, why not make tryangular or spheroidal concertina?

#34 Miasmamann

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 05:36 PM

What kind of cardboard is better for building bellows, cotton-based or wood pulp (both acid-free)? Or is ther no noticable difference (in my idea cotton is more rigid but not as stable as wood pulp cardboard ... but i do not have any experience)
How thik should it be? (i can get wood pulp cardboard from 0,5 up to 2,8 mm and cotten cardboard 0,75 or 1,5 mm )

#35 wntrmute

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 10:44 PM

At hmi.homewood.net Mr. Tedrow has a section called Bellows making explored. He says he uses cotton ragboard. Maybe that's the thicker kind of cotton one?

With respect to the action, I was talking about the lever arms. The traditional way to make the action was for a long wood block to have slots cut into it for the wooden lever arms to fit into. Then a wire was pushed through to hold the levers in place. The concertina I have that is made that way feels a bit mushy and slow compared to the Rochelle even, and much worse than the Céilí which feels very crisp and responsive.
The bellows on my old German concertina seems to be wood-pulp cardboard, by the way, so I guess either would work. But again I could be wrong.

#36 Miasmamann

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 07:27 AM

so I guess either would work


Yes... but that was not my question... :rolleyes: ;)
I know Bob Tedrows (great) site about bellow construction. He uses 0.05 inch cotton ragboard as far as i know (what is around 1.3 mm) so 1,5 mm should be enough. The questiones are:
1. Would it make a appreciable difference using cardboard that is thicker than 1,5 mm or if cardboard with this dimension is so stable, that thicker one would not make any difference (exept for beeing thicker)?
2. Is there any appreciable difference in using wood pulp cardboard compared to using (pure) cotton cardboard?

P.S.: Ragboard is, as far as i know, another word for pure cotton cardboard (like rag paper ... in german it is "Hadernpapier").

Edited by Miasmamann, 15 June 2008 - 07:29 AM.





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