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What's The Difference From Wicki And Hayden Layout?


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#109 jjj

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 04:36 PM

I'm originally from Minsk, Belarus. You've been writing about difficulty of reading for so long, it would have taken you to learn it three times. So I guess it's an ideology issue.

It would be hard for me to learn Russian, yet if I had to do it and a good method would be available, maybe I would be able to do it as well. Yet, to be host my "disability to learn traditional notation" is more an aversion than anything else. I just dislike undue complexity and find it absurd. Particularly then, when a simple alternative, such as Klavarskribo, is available.

Learn to walk first, study anatomy later.

You mean "learn to walk, before you can run?" :)

You can't read Klavarscribo on the flute or violin, CBA or guitar.

Klavarskribo is a WYSIWYG piano notation, which is far more logically correct for the piano and Janko is far more logically correct as a piano layout than the zebra. To be honest, I tried traditional notation for a couple of years before, while learning the piano accordion at the military, but I didn't like it. There's too much "Math" involved! For me music is something purely emotional... no room for Math! In whistling to music my timing etc. comes naturally and it sounds spot or you disagree?

I don't see how you can make a paper chart without reading the stave.

Well my innovative W/H notation will do it for me.

Would you refer to harp as "zebra" keyboard?

No, for the striking of strings mechanism can be varied. No need for the zebra layout. Janko does the same thing; only better!

Your MIDI toys are just toys, clever as they might be. But you seem to be totally engrossed in these - good for you. I could never understand how anybody could be attracted to electronic keyboard, with chords sticking out of it, like life support lines.

Did you had a look at the latest Yamaha Tyros 2 keyboard? I can easily adapt this keyboard to Janko or W/H and enjoy all the benefits plus Klavarskribo type of notation. Here are some interesting toys with latest MIDI for you to check out:

http://wersi.organpo...p...1&Itemid=62

http://www.youtube.c...AIRE-PLAY-SAMBA

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=TSkP-GD7buA

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=X8X3rf8dBHg

Check out the Tyros 2 YouTube:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Faivpz7cjo8

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=F1Mk2Rst4Y8

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=giHvWl67Jdk
There are many more and I must admit that I love (prefer!) these toys to zebras and other boring toy sounds...

Edited by jjj, 28 April 2008 - 05:27 PM.


#110 m3838

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 05:35 PM

I checked the links: horrific.
I don't even know what's worse, the sound, the look, or the manner.
Just hideous.
I used to call it Purple music, or in English it's more like " Mother of Toilet seat" music.
Sorry.
Your whistling is notches above this.
Yes, writing 7 notes on 5 lines is not the best system, but it's not that difficult and it has historic value. But it's far from absurd, and has benefit of compactness.

#111 jjj

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 09:33 PM

I checked the links: horrific.

My idol is the late organist Klaus Wunderlich. What do you think of his music?

Your whistling is notches above this.

Well, you can hardly compare the two*), albeit it's also largely a matter of personal musical taste and preference. I didn't care so much about the music they play, but rather about the sounds these keyboards are able to produce. MIDI is is getting better by the day and definitely the way to go in future. The traditional musical instrument's evolution is "over" and "stay put"; i.e. not improvable anymore. Computers are (!) and thus, going to have the last word and laugh!

Yes, writing 7 notes on 5 lines is not the best system, but it's not that difficult and it has historic value. But it's far from absurd, and has benefit of compactness.

My main objection to traditional notation is that it is too longwinded and undue complicated, whereas Klavarskribo is so obvious that even a novice is able to immediately read and find the notes on the keyboard. You can't do that with traditional notation. That proves that Klavarskribo is far more logical and ideal for keyboards, organs, Synth etc.

*) Of course, emotional values reign supreme in musical creativity. Admittedly, today's MIDI instruments are still a long way off to allow perfect emotional control as it is possible with traditional music instruments. Therefore, Klaus Wunderlich did an amazing job! He knew how to incorporate "soul" into his electronic organ music... already 50 years back!
Yet, look at Roland's V-Accordions now. They have "physical behavior modeling technology", doing a great job in getting pretty close to the real thing. (Watch their YouTube Demos) So, don't be surprised that soon more and more of the goodies, you might claim as "unique to traditional instruments", are going to be shared with MIDI instruments and trust me, the day will come when traditional music instruments will be outperformed by MIDI instruments!

#112 m3838

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 10:19 PM

Wunderlich. What do you think of his music?


I liked the music. Not my piece of cake, but pretty good.

MIDI is is getting better by the day and definitely the way to go in future.


Way to go in future is not geometric straight line.
Remember, in the 50es there was a talk that TV is the way to go in future. No more books, no more theaters, no movies - only TV.
Ha!

The traditional musical instrument's evolution is "over" and "stay put"; i.e. not improvable anymore.


You should research better than that. I had a book with CD, about new musical instruments. Awesome! Some are actually capable of complex music and are real instruments. The least exciting of them all is Hydrophone.

Computers are (!) and thus, going to have the last word and laugh!

And having nothing to emulate anymore, will die laughing? You are kidding.

My main objection to traditional notation is that it is too longwinded and undue complicated


I disagree about complication. Complicated music has complicated notation,and even Klavarscribo is not very easy to read in such a case. I have looked at serious 'scribo scores - man, not for beginners! And I'm yet to see how you exchange music between piano and organ, or between piano and a guitar with Klavarscribo. Everything has it's place, it seems.

Yet, look at Roland's V-Accordions now. They have "physical behavior modeling technology", doing a great job in getting pretty close to the real thing.


You mean they are not the real thing? There you go. That's what I'm talking about.

the day will come when traditional music instruments will be outperformed by MIDI instruments!


As MIDI instruments don't have their own sound, such day will never come, as humans always invent new machines, with unique sound. Besides, therapeutic effect of real sound is proven, but artificial emulation is actually harmful.
Electronic keyboards are great substitute for real instruments, if they are cheaper, other than that...

And Gee, don't they look ugly. And you know why? Because they don't have natural shape. Best of them are either copying real instruments, or actually are musical instruments, like Theremin or electric guitar.

P.S.
Banjo, Ukulele, Accordion, Clarinet, Saxophone, Concertina, even Pianoforte are very new and rather modern, invented not so long ago.
What made you think we live in the pinnacle of time?
In the matter of fact I recently came up with very cool design of double Ocarina/panflute with the span of three octaves.
Russians invented new bayan, without the outruding keyboard, very cool looking.
Kravtsov keyboard is new.
Gabla bandoneon is new.
One/half row diatonic accordion is very new, fresh out of bakery.
Accordion with pitch bending capabilities is making it's difficult way towards acceptance.
Many more:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=7hiEmoe5hOQ
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=M1STez9l7Is
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=FWWYjMMEczc
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

#113 jjj

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 10:53 PM

(K. Wunderlich) >>> I liked the music. Not my piece of cake, but pretty good.

I suppose we all have our musical tastes and preferences. Mine happen to be interesting accordion, bandoneon, K. Wunderlich style organ
music and emotionally meaningful, interesting orchestra music. 98% of classical music I find boring...

Albeit MIDI instruments are still considered to be in their developmental stage, they progress rapidly. I still remember when the first MIDI keyboards came out. Look where they are now! Their progress is secured by incessant PC technological development.

...in the 50es there was a talk that TV is the way to go in future. No more books, no more theaters, no movies - only TV.

A lot of what was predicted ...really happened. Many cinemas closed, every household has a TV or two and most people get their news and entertainment more from TV than other media. Now with computers the shift is even more noticeable. I consider my PC a "tool", which helps me to do things faster and better. Thus, I plan to use it as a musical instrument. Things looking up!

(The traditional musical instrument's evolution is "over" and "stay put"; i.e. not improvable anymore.) I had a book with CD, about new musical instruments. Awesome! >>>

I'm sorry, but I don't find the new acoustic instruments you refer to (below, in YouTube) horribly boring sounding!

Computers are now taking over all fields of human concern. There's no return to the dark ages, where we had to use mechanical or electro-mechanical typewriters and calculators. Now computer do a year's job in one hour or less! The same is going to happen in musically creative instrument. Sure, human emotions are rather complex issues and that's why computer technology is still trying to come to terms with it; yet, amazing progress has already been made.

My main objection to traditional notation is that it is too longwinded and undue complicated

Regarding traditional notation: I'm quite happy with my innovative notation, for as long it helps my learning the Janko and Wicki layout and new, complex melodies. More I don't need. It's ideal for hobby musicians.

(Roland's V-accordions) >>> You mean they are not the real thing?

I didn't write that, did I? What I wrote is that they "getting pretty close to the real thing"; i.e. that they come amazingly close to acoustic accordion, bandoneon etc, instruments. In fact they can emulate 40 different accordion and that pretty faithful. If that's not an achievement... I don't know "what is"! I prefer this V-accordion to any acoustic accordion, bandoneon. I like the Wersi and Yamaha's Tyros II sound, because it reminds me of K. Wunderlich's interpretations. I can't find these soundfonts anywhere, but one day they'll pop up on Russian pirate sides. DA, da, da tovarish, I'm truly confident that the day will come when traditional music instruments will be outperformed by MIDI instruments!

As MIDI instruments don't have their own sound, such day will never come

Well stereo units don't have their own sounds either, yet when you insert a CD a whole orchestra plays your chosen master piece in great musical perfection.

Besides, therapeutic effect of real sound is proven, but artificial emulation is actually harmful.

Many soundfonts are now that realistic that I derive great emotional satisfaction and joys from it. I avoid sound, which I don't find interesting sounding. Klaus Wunderlich wrote (after listening to 3 audio-cassettes of my whistling) that I have very good musical hearing and feeling. So, I'm easily offended by bad singers, sounds or music.

And Gee, don't they look ugly.

I find the looks of electronic organs, Synth and accordions rather elegant and classy.

Banjo, Ukulele, Accordion, Clarinet, Saxophone, Concertina, even Pianoforte are very new and rather modern, invented not so long ago. What made you think we live in the pinnacle of time?

Saxophone inveted by Adolphe Sax 1814 1894 // the ukulele, invented in Hawaii in 1879, // the banjo came from West Africa to America in the 17th Century. // Johann Christoph Denner invented the clarinet in 1690. // the concertina was invented by Charles Wheatstone, and the earliest examples, which he called the symphonium, were made in 1829. // The accordion was invented by Friedrich Buschmann in 1822 in Berlin // PIANO-FORTE was innvented by JC Schroder, of Dresden, in 1717 // >>> And you call these inventions "very new and rather modern, invented not so long ago..." ??? Oh God, you must be seriously out of touch with time, to say the least! :( Guess what? My computer made it easy to get this Info. I know it's not a "real messenger", but it does the same job; only easier and faster; same with MIDI instruments! :)
So, the question is back to you: What made you think we live in the pinnacle of time? In other words, it's about time someone invents a new musical instrument, isn't it?! :)
Since little or nothing worthwhile is forthcoming, I can safely assume that society reached the end of acoustic instrument evolution and we now looking forward enjoying "the era of creative computer music".

In the matter of fact I recently came up with very cool design of double Ocarina/panflute with the span of three octaves.

Great, but it's nothing as revolutionary as the centuries ago, invented instruments you mentioned above.

Russians invented new bayan, without the outruding keyboard, very cool looking.

Kravtsov keyboard is new, but I cannot see how it betters the Janko or Wicki layout?
Gabla bandoneon is an adaptation of chromatic accordion (both in C and B system) to bandoneon. Basically leaving off the accordion's bass side and replacing it with lower part of "split" treble side. Yet, such "inventions" are not real inventions; merely changes to existing instruments; making the instrument easier and better to play.

Accordion with pitch bending capabilities is making it's difficult way towards acceptance.

That's the player's, not the inventor's problem.

#114 m3838

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 12:12 PM

You left out the most important part of my argument for new acoustic instrument development. The youtube files.
These instruments are new, interesting sounding and capable.
Evolution has not come to a stop all of a sudden, just like Piano-Forte was not a revolutionary invention out of blue. It was a "betterment' of Clavicords.
None of the acoustic "revolutions", like Clarinet or accordion, were all that new. Ages of development preceded them. There is no "now" with the capital "N". We are not resting on the top of majestic pose of Time, looking back with condescending smyle and up with gleaming eyes. We all ars simple standing in line, passing little bricks from the one behind us to the one ahead. Each of us is "Now" and personally connected to "Yesterday" and "Tomorrow".
200 years ago is not a long time, we have pretty much personal connections to Gradparents of our Grandparents, and would like our grandchildren to be happy with their grandchildren. So easily above phraze spans 200 years, if you count generations as been 20 years apart. So someone today will listen to bedtime stories from Grandma, telling stories about her Grandpa, who invented the PianoForte.
In comparison, Ocarinas and Panflutes have been around for hundreds of thousands of years.
I think acoustic and electronic will live in mutually enriching collaboration, as in this funny clip.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=HH7uO03IQxA

Good luck with Russian Pirate Sites (almost wrote "ships")

#115 jjj

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 09:48 PM

You left out the most important part of my argument for new acoustic instrument development. The youtube files. These instruments are new, interesting sounding and capable.

As mentioned, I checked them out, but I wasn't exited about them, because there was nothing really revolutionary or great sounding about them. I mean all the other "old" instruments you before mentioned as "very new and rather modern" ones, sound far more interesting.

Evolution has not come to a stop all of a sudden, just like Piano-Forte was not a revolutionary invention out of blue. It was a "betterment' of Clavicords. None of the acoustic "revolutions", like Clarinet or accordion, were all that new.

I'm glad you worked that out.

200 years ago is not a long time...

All depends, because even "only" 100 years there were almost no cars and planes around. Look were we are now! That's why you should trust in future progress and not getting bogged down in yesterday's progress.

Ocarinas and Panflutes have been around for hundreds of thousands of years.

Yes and I invented good whistling ...or was it Adam whistling to Eve to fetch him another apple?

I think acoustic and electronic will live in mutually enriching collaboration

That's alright with me, yet when it comes to considerable advancement of instruments computer guided musical instruments will have the edge, whereas the acoustic ones will just "stay put"!! That's, because mechanics can only go thus far and not further, whereas computer technology is unlimited. What still not is can be done, but only with the help of computers. It's, because every movement on Earth and in the Universe is based on logic; speak: Math and/ or digital calculators --> da, computers!) Hence, the latter are the better tools for getting us further, faster. :)

#116 m3838

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 12:40 PM

Hence, the latter are the better tools for getting us further, faster. :)


"Further and faster" is not necessarily "better", that's for one.
For two, musical instrument is some device, making it's own unique sound.
So far there is only one such electronic instrument, Theremin.
Others emulate acoustic.
For three, your opinion about quality of sound is personal. I find the examples very interesing. But it's not the point. The point is to show you that modern acoustic instrument development is not staying put. It's nothing but put. Mechanics are of secondary importance, if of any at all.
To say that mechanics are outdated by electronic computers, which depend on modern mechanics to be assembled and to function is an oxymoron.
Nothing stays put.
The sounds of electronic instruments is a funny thing. If they are getting close to acoustics, I don't understand the point of going electronic. What's the difference?
If they have their own sound - it may be another thing, and we all have experienced that craze of electro-music in the 80s. It's gone, and more and more electro bands pick up acoustic instruments, they look like an instrument, not like a rack with shelves, and they actually sound without the amplyfiers, synths, cords, power, loudspeakers.
Imagine to be invited to a session or concert with your Janko keyboard. How much stuff you'll have to take woth you, set up, test, plug in!
You're saying tomorrow it'll be differrent.
I don't see straight line into the future, it's zig-zaggy at best.

#117 jjj

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 03:14 PM

"Further and faster" is not necessarily "better", that's for one.

Better tools enable us to get better faster and further.

For two, musical instrument is some device, making it's own unique sound.

The V-Accordion can make forty unique accordion sounds and that, so authentic that it leaves professionals amazed and perplexed. I'm difficult to please, but I find the performance of this V-Accordion truly amazing and perfect. I cannot hear any shortcoming to acoustic accordions and if there's still is on, computer technology can remedy it.

So far there is only one such electronic instrument, Theremin.

That was one of the first electronic instrument; sounding rather poor! What about the many electronic organs, such as the legendary Hammond B3 or latest Wersi organs, which followed? What about the evolution of Synth Kbds ? Yamaha's Tyros II is truly impressive. Yamaha and Roland now even have got have got breath controlled instruments, such as http://www.samedaymu...product--YAMWX5

Nothing stays put.

Mechanical instruments can change its shape and mechanism, but essentially are limited in their physical possibilities. The limiting factors usually are lack of space or excessive complexity. Computer technology overcomes both of these factors. Tasks like the mapping of the genetic gene was mechanically impossible; yet with computer technology successful! What makes you think computers are not better tools than mechanical tools, for solving complex tasks?

The sounds of electronic instruments is a funny thing. If they are getting close to acoustics.

Oscillators create the sound, filters shape the sound and amplifiers then feed the sounds into various loudspeakers and so, the sound becomes acoustically audible. Nothing funny about it. It's rather amazing how flexible and interesting electronic sounds can be. Latest digital technology goes even a step further in manipulating complex sound pattern and things getting better by the day. Yet, in stark contrast, little in the way of improvements happens to traditional, musical instruments.

If they have their own sound - it may be another thing, and we all have experienced that craze of electro-music in the 80s.

Computer technology moves at a much faster speed. Any PC you buy today is outdated in three month (!), because better PC's are being created at an incredible pace. Millions of creative PC professionals work on its evolution; in comparison... very few professionals work on improving traditional musical instruments.

Imagine to be invited to a session or concert with your Janko keyboard. How much stuff you'll have to take woth you, set up, test, plug in!

Only my Synth, because PA equipment is already installed in every venue. My Janko adapter is "mechanical". Did you not see how I built it? Here's the PDF with all details: http://www.live-styl...nko Project.pdf

You're saying tomorrow it'll be differrent.

I suppose the reason why I think that way is, because I have been a little longer around in this world than you and that makes me believe that tomorrow will raise the sun... Of course nothing is sure, but my life-experiences tell me, that if everything continues to go as it went in the past, we all have to continue to make a living and partake in nature's evolution process. In East Germany we had 5-year plans and got no-where! :)

Edited by jjj, 02 May 2008 - 03:31 PM.


#118 m3838

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 04:11 PM

The V-Accordion can make forty unique accordion sounds

It can make forty million sounds of other accordions, but doesn't make one of it's own.
Are we having language barrier?

#119 jjj

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 09:36 PM

Your stereo unit, TV and radio doesn't produce its own sound either, yet is able to produce high quality music. Most of this music sounds far nicer and richer than the one your instrument can produce. To me its unimportant how the sound is produced, far more important is the sound quality and I am able to obtain and enjoy from an instrument.

#120 m3838

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 02:23 AM

Your stereo unit, TV and radio doesn't produce its own sound either, yet is able to produce high quality music. Most of this music sounds far nicer and richer than the one your instrument can produce. To me its unimportant how the sound is produced, far more important is the sound quality and I am able to obtain and enjoy from an instrument.

You don't understant, medical studies found that real acoustic instrument has therapeutic qualities. While sound from loudspeakers doesn't.
Loudspeakes don't produce anything except noise. Musicians do.
Enough said.

#121 jjj

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 09:47 AM

Your stereo unit, TV and radio doesn't produce its own sound either, yet is able to produce high quality music. Most of this music sounds far nicer and richer than the one your instrument can produce. To me its unimportant how the sound is produced, far more important is the sound quality and I am able to obtain and enjoy from an instrument.

You don't understant, medical studies found that real acoustic instrument has therapeutic qualities. While sound from loudspeakers doesn't.
Loudspeakes don't produce anything except noise. Musicians do. Enough said.

Our bodies only perceive frequencies... and it doesn't matter how these frequencies are generated. More important is that these frequencies are harmonically and melodically of good quality as to be emotionally beneficial.
Bad reeds, strings, loudspeaker cones, etc. or distorted sounds have a bad therapeutic effect, whereas good music from a stereo unit has beneficial effect. Chances are it might be "your own recorded music' (!) unless your music is that badly played that it makes you sick... then your claim, namely that your own music would make the loudspeakers "produce anything except noise", is correct.
So, it really doesn't matter if the frequencies are generated by reed or string vibrations or speaker cone vibrations. Both are generated physically and reach our ear acoustically... and biologically. Therefore I cannot understand your point.
Older type of electronic organs, actually generated their very own sounds. Since people got used to the sound of traditional instruments, organs tried to mimic those sounds; offering hobby musicians many instruments in one unit. The Hammond B3 was certainly a great success.
With the advent of computers sampling technology was invented, allowing keyboard players to play digitally recorded sounds and so, faithfully emulate traditional instruments. The next evolutionary step will be the "perfection of all the great sounds" and the big boys, such as Roland, Wersi, Yamaha etc. are well positioned to make it happen. The know the shortcoming better than we both, because Yamaha also builds pianos, violins, trumpets etc. Yet, they know as well that computer technology is able to account for every nuance and variable. That's the point!

Edited by jjj, 03 May 2008 - 02:57 PM.





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