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What's The Difference From Wicki And Hayden Layout?


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#37 jjj

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 10:02 PM

Thx ragtimer,

And to back up what others have said, you MUST incorporate some kind of timing notation into your scheme. Otherwise, what you yourself wrote last month will be a mystery to you today, if you came up with some neat rhythms back then.

For other people it's a must, because I remember the timing of good music and that's why I only stick to music, which really excites me emotionally. Also, I can keep a recording of it so that I can always refresh my memory... just in case I'm getting senile in the head. :)

Especially one that requires colors, tho you can probably find another way to mark up each symbol to show the octave.

Yes, I know colors make it look "childish"... I planned to color the buttons so that they are easily identified by the notes. So what ?
I don't really mind if people don't take my keyboard serious, because when I'm able to play it well... they are free to try how easy it is to play it. I'm already used to it, because few people take my whistling serious. So I let them try... This exercise serves to improve reasoning and self-confidence. One more/less "weird thing" won't make a difference! :) I'm always happy (child-like natured) and that makes many people think I'm "childish"even more so when they are going to see me with that childish Wicki toy! I'm looking forward to fool them...

Edited by jjj, 02 April 2008 - 10:18 PM.


#38 m3838

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 10:10 PM

Those trapezoid harps are, incidentally, made in Belarus (aha!).
They are supplied with the chart with notes on it, so the timing is there.
I think you had very bad teachers, by the way.
There can't be anything more ridiculous than, and you are right 100%, learning 24 scales and do 2400 etudes and excercises, when you can simply figure many things on the go by yourself. Or if you really have to practice that C# melodic minor scale - there must be a reason for it.
Like when a teacher is asking you to compose a melody by yourself, or gives you the part of a tune, and asks to write the other part. And you found the scale that sounds best, and it happened to be a tough one. But you'll learn it by heart, been motivated. No?

#39 jjj

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 11:06 PM

Anyway I'm truly thrilled having discovered the Wicki layout, that does away with learning and practicing scales... For that reason alone I'm sure that it won't be all that hard to learn to play it. At least very musical and that helps. I'm looking forward for that day I'll be able to play it without bothering about notes, scales and chords; just (like a singer) allowing myself being carried away by the melody.
Years ago, I experienced this phenomenon with the piano accordion... but only to limited extent (due to its keyboard complexity).

Edited by jjj, 03 April 2008 - 09:30 AM.


#40 JimLucas

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 06:00 AM

Sorry, I actually meant to write: "My musical abilities are innate". True, abilities can be acquired to a certain extent. Yet, when it comes to a combination of unique abilities at superior evolutionary levels working in synergy...

Ah, like Chester cricket!

For me the timing is unimportant, because I know how the piece/ melody I like, should sound.

I believe what you mean is that recording the timing is unimportant to you.

But if you know how a piece "should sound", why do you need notation at all? For me, the purpose of notation is to tell me things I don't already know (or have forgotten), which very much includes the rhythm/timing of melodies and arrangements for which I don't have audio recordings, but for which I do have notation (a form which is still less expensive than audio, and in many cases the only form available).

#41 JimLucas

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 06:49 AM

...adapting the Klavarskribo-style notation to a slide trombone... or to the human voice.

Not too sure of the mechanics of trombone... but for human voice I prefer the Klavarskribo notation displayed horizontally,...

If you mean a 90-rotated version of Klavarskribo, then that begins to look suspiciously like a primitive version of conventional notation, though with less information. Or do you mean to do it completely without lines, since the voice doesn't have any "keys" or other external connections to individual pitches?

...because there you can "see" where you are, for I can't stand those confusing #,b and cancel signs. Klavarskribo is "wysiwyg" for music notation!

I find traditional notation to be very WYSIWYG ("What You See Is What You Get", in case anyone isn't familiar with that notation). But I'll repeat for emphasis that it is so in terms of musical relationships (which is all I care about), and not in terms of physical placement of the notes (which is, after all, different from instrument to instrument, and not even a valid concept for the voice).

At first they show the note on this line and then they say "sorry it's not in this line, but half note lower/ higher, because... What's that nonsense?

The "nonsense" is your way of viewing the notation. But you've already indicated that you're unwilling to try other perspectives, such as my description here, in another thread, so I won't repeat myself here, much less try to expand on that view.

You seem to have strong objections to traditional notation because you feel it is complicated, confusing, and inconsistent. It makes me wonder that you're willing to write to us in English, which is far worse in those regards.

Klaverskribo shows the note directly as when you are shown the key on the piano keyboard!

So does traditional notation, though I don't believe either is derived directly from the other. Each line and space in traditional notation corresponds to one of the white keys on the piano, because both correspond to the notes of the diatonic C-scale. The piano then has black keys inserted to allow playing in other keys or chromatically, and the notation has sharp and flat symbols to indicate those same "in-between" notes, which on the piano are the adjacent black notes. (Well, so much for not adding to my earlier descriptions of standard notation.)

What could be easier and better?

"Easier and better" than a notation tied to the keyboard you seem to detest? A strange question, rhetorical or not.

Especially one that requires colors, tho you can probably find another way to mark up each symbol to show the octave.

Yes, I know colors make it look "childish"... I planned to color the buttons so that they are easily identified by the notes. So what ?
I don't really mind if people don't take my keyboard serious,....

A false accusation. You are the only one in this discussion who has suggested that your ideas are "childish" or not "serious". Some of us may find them less wonderful than you do, perhaps even criticize various technical details, but none of us have been derisive or condescending about it, and I consider it dishonest of you to attribute to anyone motives which they haven't expressed.

#42 ragtimer

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 08:13 AM

Thx ragtimer,

And to back up what others have said, you MUST incorporate some kind of timing notation into your scheme. Otherwise, what you yourself wrote last month will be a mystery to you today, if you came up with some neat rhythms back then.

For other people it's a must, because I remember the timing of good music and that's why I only stick to music, which really excites me emotionally. Also, I can keep a recording of it so that I can always refresh my memory... just in case I'm getting senile in the head. :)

OK, but now you have to sort thru a big file of recordings, each pegged to a sheet of your music, to find the recording of that particular tune. So you have a box full of cassettes, or a computer full of MP3 files that has to be booted up for your practice session. WHereas, with a proper timing notation, everything you need is on the music sheet.

Yes, I know colors make it look "childish"... I planned to color the buttons so that they are easily identified by the notes. So what ?

My objection to colors is not that they look childish -- who cares, right! Again, it's a question of convenience. As you notate a great tune you've just worked out, you're constantly setting down one colored pencil or felt-tip pen and picking up another. I have enough problems keeping one stinkin' pencil on my music rack, picking it up and scribbling with my 'tina in my lap -- let alone having to futz with 4 colored pens. Then there's the problems of photocopying or printing your stuff in color.

I don't really mind if people don't take my keyboard serious, because when I'm able to play it well... they are free to try how easy it is to play it. I'm already used to it, because few people take my whistling serious.

OK, you've developed a personal notation just for yourself. And that's fine, and seriously, thank you for sharing it with us. FWIW, I've added my own changes to the standard "fake chord" notations, which I scribble over tunes in my concertina books. I know what they mean, but anyone else ... ?
--Mike K.

#43 Roger Gawley

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 08:50 AM

FWIW, your notation looks a lot like the tune sheets that slide under those little trapezoidal melody harps with the horizontal strings, except yours is rotated 90 degrees. That's not a criticism -- that notation works for kids and beginners, but I forget how it handles timing.


I have one of them, great fun. My wife bought it for me to stop me going on about wanting a hammered dulcimer.

The trapezoidal tune cards have crochets and quavers printed on them under the strings with a zigzag line to follow the tune. They also use commas to mark the points where a singer or whistle player would breathe. These are remarkably helpful. Italian tadpoles do not tell the whole story.

Of course, this only works for short tunes. It is meant to help you hack out a tune that you know.

I believe that it was intended for Russian schoolchildren but some evil capitalist grabbed it and shipped it to England.

Roger

#44 jjj

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 10:25 AM

But if you know how a piece "should sound", why do you need notation at all?

1) For the purpose of learning the Wicki layout and
2) to remember the correct sequence of composition and harmonies.
Once, I remember the latter I'm able to time it emotionally correct.
Since my keyboard is PC controlled, I'll have access to the original recording. No extra costs, such as pen & ruled notation paper, involved.
----------------
Human voice notation is perfectly with Klavarskribo and all Info.
----------------
I class my Klavarskribo style notation as a personal notation. It serves me to learn and play the Wicki happily ever after...
----------------

You seem to have strong objections to traditional notation because you feel it is complicated, confusing, and inconsistent. It makes me wonder that you're willing to write to us in English, which is far worse in those regards.

Languages are "music" to me. I lived in four different countries with 4 different languages. Maybe I should try a fifth, that of basic programming language, so I can create my personal notation program?
----------------
Traditional notation has only five lines for ten half notes, but an octave has 12 half notes, which are shown in Klavarskribo. That's why Klavarskribo doesn't need additional "deviation signs"... Hence, I reckon the "in-between" notes, which on the piano are the adjacent black notes are messing up traditional notation. It's like trying to scratch your ear with your left foot; instead of using your left hand?

"Easier and better" than a notation tied to the keyboard you seem to detest?

I build the Janko keyboard on top of my Synth's zebra/ piano keyboard and so, Klavarskribo is certainly easier and better... not only for me.

A false accusation. You are the only one in this discussion who has suggested that your ideas are "childish" or not "serious". Some of us may find them less wonderful than you do, perhaps even criticize various technical details, but none of us have been derisive or condescending about it, and I consider it dishonest of you to attribute to anyone motives which they haven't expressed.

Nothing of the sorts... Fact or assumption? My thoughts on the matter are meant throughout constructive. If you view them as "accusation" please allow me to first to clarify your assumption, before accusing me of wrongdoing ...or simply disregard my postings, will you? Thank you!
For your Info: With "people" I did not mean "members of our forum", but rather "any other people, who later on might mistake my colorful Wicki keyboard childish toy". So please don't blow it out of proportions into negative assumptions, false accusations and what have you...
Peace, peace Mr. Lucas and Mr. Bush! I hate polemic arguments as much as the zebra layout ! :)

#45 m3838

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 12:10 PM

Peace, peace Mr. Lucas and Mr. Bush!

Jumping in and in and in.
Please do not put forum folks and politicians in one sentence. Some politicians may feel too flattered and they have enough perks already.

#46 jjj

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 01:37 PM

Peace, peace Mr. Lucas and Mr. Bush!

Jumping in and in and in.
Please do not put forum folks and politicians in one sentence. Some politicians may feel too flattered and they have enough perks already.

True, but while I was thinking of peace... dead or alive B. just popped in my mind! :)

#47 Chris Timson

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 02:10 PM

I believe that it was intended for Russian schoolchildren but some evil capitalist grabbed it and shipped it to England.

I find it difficult to think of my good friend Heather the MacCann duet player as an evil capitalist, yet it was she who wholesaled them in the UK, up until a couple of weeks ago when she sold the business to one of her customers.

(If you try hard enough, everything can be related back to concertinas - Timson's law of multifold reality).

Chris

#48 JimLucas

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 02:19 PM

(If you try hard enough, everything can be related back to concertinas - Timson's law of multifold reality).

Like a tangle of spaghetti, eh? ;)



#49 jjj

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 05:36 PM

Hi ragtimer,

...you can probably find another way to mark up each symbol to show the octave.


Do you have any ideas of how else I could mark the button and notes as efficiently as with colors?
It's really difficult, because the buttons rows are stacked. With the Janko layout I didn't have this problem.
I think I have to leave it at colors... and I shouldn't worry what onlookers (i.e. not from this forum) will make of it...

#50 tony

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 07:20 AM

20% of the male population and 10% of the female population (worldwide) have a colour defect known as "red/green, blue/grey" which means it is difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish between these colours and colours mixed from them. I am one of these people so any system that uses colours, unless they are well chosen by an "expert", are a hindrance rather than a help to me.

#51 jjj

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 09:11 AM

20% of the male population and 10% of the female population (worldwide) have a color defect known as "red/green, blue/grey" which means it is difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish between these colors and colors mixed from them. I am one of these people so any system that uses colors, unless they are well chosen by an "expert", are a hindrance rather than a help to me.

True... that's why my colored keyboard can only be my personal choice, but the question is (was):
Do you have any ideas of how else I could mark the button and notes as efficiently as with colors?
Thx for inspiring me: Maybe 5 symbols, like: a dot, a circle, a vertical line, a horizontal line and a cross
would be the answer!


Just remembering a joke:
The waiter asked the guest: "Would you like red or white wine?" The guest replied: "It doesn't matter to me, because I'm color blind!" :)

#52 JimLucas

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 09:34 AM

...you can probably find another way to mark up each symbol to show the octave.

Do you have any ideas of how else I could mark the button and notes as efficiently as with colors?

What about shapes?

The "sacred harp" hymnals use four shapes -- circle, triangle, square, and diamond -- to represent the steps of the diatonic scale, and these may be either outlines or solid, as part of the means of indicating duration. But since you're not concerned with representing duration, you could use the hollow and solid shapes to represent different notes, and also use other shapes -- e.g., cross and asterisk, -- for which the solid-hollow distinction would make little sense.

#53 JimLucas

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 09:50 AM

...the question is (was):
Do you have any ideas of how else I could mark the button and notes as efficiently as with colors?
... Maybe 5 symbols, like: a dot, a circle, a vertical line, a horizontal line and a cross would be the answer!

What about shapes?

Hmm. Looks like we were writing about the same idea at the same time.

But only five shapes? I guess you're talking about denoting the octaves, while I was thinking of a separate symbol for each note of the (chromatic) scale. Then I was thinking that for the different octaves your symbols could be different sizes.

Another possibility would be to avoid hollow/solid shapes for the note symbols and then enclose them in "frames" of different shapes -- circle, square, etc. -- for the different octaves.

#54 jjj

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 12:29 PM

...the question is (was):
Do you have any ideas of how else I could mark the button and notes as efficiently as with colors?
... Maybe 5 symbols, like: a dot, a circle, a vertical line, a horizontal line and a cross would be the answer!

What about shapes?

Hmm. Looks like we were writing about the same idea at the same time.
But only five shapes? I guess you're talking about denoting the octaves, while I was thinking of a separate symbol for each note of the (chromatic) scale. Then I was thinking that for the different octaves your symbols could be different sizes.
Another possibility would be to avoid hollow/solid shapes for the note symbols and then enclose them in "frames" of different shapes -- circle, square, etc. -- for the different octaves.

The problem is to define and match the marking of buttons with the notes. It will make it even harder to introduce the marking for the timing.

...note symbols and then enclose them in "frames" of different shapes -- circle, square, etc. -- for the different octaves.

Now that sounds more like it! >>> To avoid hassle we best use PC keyboard symbols, such as:
1st octave: [ ]
2nd octave: { }
3rd octave: ( )
4th octave: l l
5th octave: / \
So, the frame shape defines to which octave this particular note belongs and now we can insert traditional note values and bars...
Interesting! See, it can be done! Thats how we can create a valid alternative notation for the Wicki keyboard (and maybe other button accordion layouts) and with that no-one should have an excuse for not being able to read notation.
Of course my notion is still largely underdeveloped, but as an alternative notation it would be a challenge to develop it here in cooperation.
I truly believe that this Klavarskribo style WYSIWYG format has its advantages over the traditional type ...for it can be instantly read by even by "notation illiterate people" like me.
May I beg you (or another forum member with experience in traditional notation) to give me a hand on this project ? Take for instance the beginning (only) of the well-known tune, such as: "Love IS A Very Expensive Thing" :) All we need is another simple example as I initially drew up, but this time with bars and timed notes in frames; just so that our latest advances are exemplified.
You see, that's what I call constructive cooperation! It's stimulating stuff, don't you agree?!

Edited by jjj, 04 April 2008 - 04:03 PM.





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