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What's The Difference From Wicki And Hayden Layout?


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#19 ragtimer

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 10:20 PM

This sudden burst of interest in the Hayden duet is of great interest to me as I have just bought one of the square "bandonion" models.

Wow, another owner of the 67-key square Hayden! I bought one from Brian last October, shipped across The Pond, and a new member here named Grant has been playing one too. That makes three of us on this board.

Any guidance on playing it, helpful web resources etc, received with gratitude (and maybe even thanks).

Don't know if it's much practical help, but have you seen my thread under "Instrument Construction and Repair" where I give a photo tour of the 67's inside and out? This will save you from taking yours apart to admire the fine construction of the reed banks.

Actually, it's safe to take an end off and access the reeds. Taking the action cover off will leave you with a real challenge to get all the buttons back thru the felt-bushed holes -- so look at my photos instead ;)

PLAYING -- the handle/strap setup tends to tilt your finger downward across the rows, so your index finger hits high and your pinky misses low. Try to keep your thumb pulled back on the hand rest, so your wrist enters the strap at an angle from below, not above.

You may find some of the reeds sluggish, and unevenly voiced, so you have to play fairly loud, squeezing hard, and the bellows don't hold a lot of air so you reverse often.

But man, do those LH side deep bass chords sound fine! Move over, Stradella!

I am in touch with Brian since I bought it from him,
Roger

Brian and I had quite a bit of chat before closing the deal, Halfway thru I finally realized who I was talking with!

ANywa, ROger, welcome to The 67 Club! --Mike K.

#20 David Barnert

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 02:15 PM

This sudden burst of interest in the Hayden duet is of great interest to me as I have just bought one of the square "bandonion" models.

Wow, another owner of the 67-key square Hayden! I bought one from Brian last October, shipped across The Pond, and a new member here named Grant has been playing one too. That makes three of us on this board.

Grant Levy has been a member for years. He has the Hayden-67 instrument that I played once when Moshe Braner owned it in Vermont. If I'm not mistaken, it's also the same instrument that Jack Woehr had for a while.

#21 ragtimer

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 09:51 PM

Grant Levy has been a member for years. He has the Hayden-67 instrument that I played once when Moshe Braner owned it in Vermont. If I'm not mistaken, it's also the same instrument that Jack Woehr had for a while.

OK David, I recall an earlier thread where you reported the odyssey of a B-67 that passed thru several owners till it found someone who really liked it. Probably that was Grant Levy.

I can know of two reason why Grant likes his Bastari 67:
(1) The extra "flat" buttons let him play minor-key tunes comon in Jewish traditional music, in keys like F minor, and
(2) he had Bob Tedrow tweak up the whole box.

I intend to have the Button Box folks work over my reeds too, and then I can stop whining and practice more <_< FWIW, I like Klezmer and minor keys too.
--Mike K.

#22 Roger Gawley

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 08:36 AM

Any guidance on playing it, helpful web resources etc, received with gratitude (and maybe even thanks).

I wrote this for jammer (like a concertina but wider, keywise) keyboards, but perhaps you will find it useful. Jammer playing - reading music scores.

Ken.


Thanks, Ken.

We seem to look at music from different points of view but you have some interesting ideas there.

Roger

#23 Roger Gawley

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 08:55 AM

Don't know if it's much practical help, but have you seen my thread under "Instrument Construction and Repair" where I give a photo tour of the 67's inside and out? This will save you from taking yours apart to admire the fine construction of the reed banks.

Actually, it's safe to take an end off and access the reeds. Taking the action cover off will leave you with a real challenge to get all the buttons back thru the felt-bushed holes -- so look at my photos instead ;)

PLAYING -- the handle/strap setup tends to tilt your finger downward across the rows, so your index finger hits high and your pinky misses low. Try to keep your thumb pulled back on the hand rest, so your wrist enters the strap at an angle from below, not above.

You may find some of the reeds sluggish, and unevenly voiced, so you have to play fairly loud, squeezing hard, and the bellows don't hold a lot of air so you reverse often.

But man, do those LH side deep bass chords sound fine! Move over, Stradella!


Thanks for this. I had missed the construction and repair thread; seen it now. I might take the ends off anyway but I am forewarned.

Have not developed a playing style yet so your comment about hand position is useful.

What you say about the reeds is true (I was aware of this before I bought the instrument). It rates average on the baritone scale. That is to say that compared to baritone concertinas which tend to suffer from the same problem, it is better than the worst I have ever played and not as good as the best.

OK, I will try some deep, low chords. I sometimes play in a group with two piano accordions so need something like that.

I seem to be making myself out to be an ace player. Actually, I can play Three Blind Mice in parallel octaves so far. But in a range of keys!

Encouragement always welcome, Roger

#24 MusicScienceGuy

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 03:30 PM

We seem to look at music from different points of view but you have some interesting ideas there.

You are very polite! I'm quite aware that I'm stark, staring bonkers. :ph34r:

Anyway, did the chord patterns help? They took me quite a while to do.
Ken.

Edited by MusicScienceGuy, 01 April 2008 - 03:31 PM.


#25 inventor

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 06:20 AM

Just to clear up 2 points.
1) Boney - Internet - 1960s! You have to be Joking - the internet didn't exist in the 1960s. Computers were very large things at that time, usually occupying a whole room, and only owned by large companies, ordinary people could not have used one even if they had access to them. It is only very recently that the Patent Office has put all patents onto the internet. At the time of my research the London Patent Office only had selected (i.e. quite recent at that time patents from other countries) available; and unless you knew a name and a date and could read German you would never have found the Wiki Patent.
2) Ragtimer - Hammer Dulcimer. If you look up the Hayden Patent - 1986 - 2131592, you will find a diagram of one in there. Normal Hammer Dulcimers have 3 runs of notes but I had noticed that the short strings on the other side of the bridges of the single lower pitched run played a very high note of sorts. This I reversed to the right hand side and placed the bridges in such a way that I obtained an extra run of high notes; giving 4 runs of notes - the minimum needed to play a good number of trad folk tunes. The Diagram in the Patent shows a single string for each note but for the Hammer Dulcimers that I made I used 4 strings for each note. Perhaps some clever person could bring this diagram into this Forum; it's on the other main Concertina Website, you don't need to go into the Patent Office Website.
Inventor.

#26 jjj

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 08:31 AM

Thx for the Info. So, in other words the wheel, sorry "Wicki's layout" was just re-invented by Brian Hayden, because Internet Info wasn't available yet at that time or the patent office was unable to locate Wicki's layout. What a shame?
That fact cancels Brian's patent rights, because now any manufacturer using the Wicki layout, such as "Thummer" is able to prove that 50 years have gone by, since Wicki invented and patented his layout... and owes Brian nothing!

#27 jjj

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 11:05 AM

Today I suffered a brighter moment and improved my proposed Wicki notation... using 5 color in order define buttons/ notes. So, what you think of this idea; any good?

Posted Image

Edited by jjj, 02 April 2008 - 02:56 PM.


#28 m3838

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 11:45 AM

Today I had a bright moment and improved my proposed Wicki notation... Notation, using 5 color in order define buttons/ notes. So, what you think of this idea; any good?

Posted Image


No, I don't get it.
Probably I'm not bright enough.
It's like creating a decoder for any individual Author. First you learn how to read. Then you decode letters into symbols, that decode, say, Chaucer's poetry into modern English. The decoding system is only good for Chaucer, but for Tolstoy you need another decoder.
Learning to read with an instrument takes at the most two weeks. Done deal. You are talking about this for at least a month or two. You'd do better by spending this time to getting over this notation "problem".
But you're a musician, so I guess there is something I just don't get.
Can you explain without any charts, just like to a 6 year old child, what exactly are you doing?
Thanks.

#29 jjj

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 02:25 PM

Hi m3838,
So, the notation details say:
1) press buttons C & D & E from 2nd octave (at the same time)
2) then press button G, then E, then F#, then B from 3rd octave
3) then press button D#, then B, then F from 4th octave
4) then press button , then F#, then G, then B, then C from 5th octave

No, I don't get it.

It must be that it reminds you of kindergarten toys? :)

Probably I'm not bright enough. It's like creating a decoder ...

That's more like it, because you learned and got used to traditional music notation and anything else is (according to your first sight) dysfunctional or futile.

Learning to read with an instrument takes at the most two weeks. Done deal. You are talking about this for at least a month or two. You'd do better by spending this time to getting over this notation "problem". But you're a musician, so I guess there is something I just don't get.

My musical abilities are innate. I (did too little to deserve it) merely discovered and developed it. I never had a music teacher nor did I go to conservatory; apart from only brief visit at the crematory :)

Can you explain without any charts, just like to a 6 year old child, what exactly are you doing ?

I have 118 pushbutton switches, from which I plan to build a 49 notes Wicki keyboard layout and connect it via plugs & sockets to my Synth. I plan to color each octave buttons with one of five colors. The mere fact that I use colors might easily mislead you to think this looks like child's toy type of notation. Yet, think again: how else could I define the exact location of the buttons in a notation?
Albeit I could use diverse symbols, colors seem to offer the simplest solution.
Hence, with this (Klavarskribo style) notation I'm instantly able to read and find each note on the Wicki keyboard. This helps me to learn to play the Wicki keyboard and I'll be able to notate new, complicated melodies and their correct harmonies. To notate the timing is unimportant, because I know how the piece/ melody should sound.
Whereas, to learn traditional notation takes me months or years and (worst of all) it doesn't visually relate to the keyboard.

Edited by jjj, 02 April 2008 - 05:36 PM.


#30 m3838

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 03:59 PM

Whereas, to learn traditional notation takes me months or years and (worst of all) it doesn't visually relate to the keyboard.

But it is simply incorrect! Why do you think just reading the notes and visually connect them to the keyboard will take you so long? I have taught my daughter to read, because she was lazy and her piano teacher asked me to. I made cards and in 2 weeks she (and me automatically) was reading from treble and bass cleffs enough, so that the teacher could move on with her studies.
Just two weeks! What years?
For me reading with B system was a little more cumbersome, but with EC and AC - piece of cake!
With my diatonic accordions I treat evey one as tuned to G/C, and if a music is written in different key, I use tablature, because they all laid out the same, only in different keys.
But why use tablature (and that's what you are using) for Chromatic keyboard?
I think you simply haven't given it a try. I think using Hayden for reading is very easy. I remember trying Hayden ('Stagi) and reading was not a problem. The problem was left and right hands playing different scores, but that's just time. And I'm not especially talented and have bad memory and no time.
But anyways, if you think it gives you something, well then.

#31 JimLucas

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 04:19 PM

So, the notation details say:
1) press buttons C & D & E from 2nd octave (at the same time)
2) then press button G, then E, then F#, then B from 3rd octave
3) then press button D#, then B, then F from 4th octave
4) then press button , then F#, then G, then B, then C from 5th octave

That's what I had guessed, but then I was less sure when it didn't seem to result in anything I would consider "music". Different tastes, perhaps?

Musical abilities are innate.

Your belief, apparently.
It has been demonstrated that at least some musical abilities can be taught. Or maybe it's a matter of conflicting terminology? Musical competence invariably requires practice (tuition often helps, too), though the amount of practice (and tuition) needed can vary greatly among individuals.

Hence, with this (Klavarskribo style) notation I'm instantly able to read and find each note on the Wicki keyboard. This helps me to learn to play the Wicki keyboard and I'll be able to notate new, complicated melodies and their correct harmonies. To notate the timing is unimportant, because I know how the piece/ melody should sound.

But I don't... know how it should sound. So what would be the use to me of something you have notated in that fashion? All music -- as I understand the term -- has timing as a significant element.

As for the Wicki-Hayden keyboard, I don't have one. But if I did, I would simply learn to feel where the notes are, just as I have done with all my other keyboards. In fact, I did just that the one time I had a Hayden concertina in my hands for a few minutes. My "feeling" was hardly at a virtuoso level, but it was enough for me to muddle through a few tunes without any notation at all.

Whereas, to learn traditional notation takes me months or years and (worst of all) it doesn't visually relate to the keyboard.

No. It relates to the music. It provides a means of both recording and communicating music -- especially the pitch, interval, and timing characteristics of music, -- independent of any particular instrument.

Some instruments don't even have keyboards. I wonder how you would propose adapting the Klavarskribo-style notation to a slide trombone... or to the human voice.

#32 David Barnert

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 04:51 PM

Listen to what people are telling you and learn how to read music. It will be much more rewarding than anything I see happening in your system, which can't be shared with anyone else because it lacks rhythm (and nobody else will have the patience to learn it). You will never be able to share a tune with a fiddle player, much less another Hayden player. You will never be able to read anything you did not notate yourself. What good is that?

#33 jjj

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 06:10 PM

I think you simply haven't given it a try.

I did... some 50 years, ago. I found the many # & b, cancel sign etc. pretty confusing; so, I learned the rest by ear.
I then saw Klavarskribo and piano roll notation and that really made sense! That's why I'm so desperate for having a Klavarskribo style notation for the Wicki. It's not easy, because the button rows are doubled up, but as you see I managed to invent one in the hurry. Thx for the alternative encouragement, but this type of "obvious" notation seems to be what I was looking for.

I bet most pianists are going to reject the claim, that Wicki is far easier to learn & play than the traditional zebra piano keyboard, as well!
The same happens with traditional notation vs Klavarskribo or my version.

Sorry, I actually meant to write: "My musical abilities are innate". True, abilities can be acquired to a certain extent. Yet, when it comes to a combination of unique abilities at superior evolutionary levels working in synergy... the matter gets out of hand. where even the best tuition won't help us to catch up or outdo it.

For me the timing is unimportant, because I know how the piece/ melody I like, should sound. I usually get the melody from a audio-cassette, a CD or a recording. For those (good at Math, but) lacking the feel for how it should sound, may introduce bars and even use note symbols from traditional notation.
So, in that regard my notation proposal seems a healthy basis idea for it. I love "constructive" criticism. That's what I was asking for. Thx

...adapting the Klavarskribo-style notation to a slide trombone... or to the human voice.

Not too sure of the mechanics of trombone... but for human voice I prefer the Klavarskribo notation displayed horizontally, because there you can "see" where you are, for I can't stand those confusing #,b and cancel signs. Klavarskribo is "wysiwyg" for music notation! At first they show the not on this line and then they say "sorry it's not in this line, but half note lower/ higher, because... What's that nonsense? Klaverskribo shows the note directly as when you are shown the key on the piano keyboard! What could be easier and better?

Edited by jjj, 02 April 2008 - 06:10 PM.


#34 m3838

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 06:41 PM

I think you got confused as a young dude or a child and still cherish that confusion. For an adult those bemol and dies signs are not a big deal. Bekars aren't rocket science as well. No sweat there.
You didn't mention the real puzzle, when in a certain key, say F, a Bb isn't a Bb at all, but A. Or in the key of G, F# isn't an F#, but G. That has to be kept in mind, but it's very rare and the piece of music has to be studied beforehand anyways.
The music notation is a compromize, just like your Cleverscrybo-thing, but a better compromize, to my opinion. It's more universal, not instrument related, you can even learn to wistle to it, just like singers learn to sing by reading.
I invented a better system, and I'm sure many before me did, but still, traditional system is more compact.
That too, is a big factor, if you don't have slaves, turning the sheets over for you.

#35 jjj

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 07:08 PM

You will never be able to share a tune with a fiddle player, much less another Hayden player. You will never be able to read anything you did not notate yourself.

It's good to know what speaks against it. What you say is true... and at the same time it's like saying: "learn to play the traditional piano, because you'll never find a Wicky piano keyboard layout anywhere!"
So, thx for the good advice and yes, I consider; taking into account all variables, such as:
1) In my age I only want to enjoy some exiting tunes of yesteryear.
2) If it's in traditional notation I use OCR convert to Midi and then Klavarskribo software to transcribe them readable notation, for my notation.
3) Lots of music I can get directly from Midi files.
4) Some music I notate directly from CD etc. using slow down software. I prefer to hear it first or search for the best sounding arrangements.
Ultimately, if everything fails, I still have my "big twitter gun" left, which doesn't require notation, yet makes it happen.
Maybe one day I get a programmer to create a little program, which outputs Klavarskribo into my notation? Maybe it's easier for me to learn a basic programming language than the traditional notation? Thus, I trust PC technology to get me there.
As you see, I'm not stubborn, because I gave away my beloved Janko layout, swapping it for the Wicki layout. It wasn't easy for me, but your valid arguments convinced me that the Wicki has more advantages. Yet, it's different with traditional notation, because compared to Klavarskribo, it reminds me of the comparison between the traditional zebra piano layout and the Wicki layout.

I think you got confused as a young dude or a child and still cherish that confusion.

Not cherish the confusion, but still remembering it! Early on I found the idea absurd of having to learn 24 different finger patterns of major & minor scales on the piano accordion. The same aversion I felt for the equally complicated traditional notation.
In stark contrast I felt greatly relieved to discover the existence of piano roll and Klavarskribo notation.

Edited by jjj, 02 April 2008 - 09:08 PM.


#36 ragtimer

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 09:39 PM

Not cherish the confusion, but still remembering it! Early on I found the idea absurd of having to learn 24 different finger patterns of major & minor scales on the piano accordion. The same aversion I felt for the equally complicated traditional notation.

OK, I think what happened was your aversion to the 24 different finger patterns was transferred, in my opinion unjustly, to the standard msuical notation.

Now while it's true that the "zebra keyboard" (and the EC for that matter) reflect the musical staff concepts of natural (white) and black keys, there is a difference, so you should not tar them both with the same emotional brush.

And to back up what others have said, you MUST incorporate some kind of timing notation into your scheme. Otherwise, what you yourself wrote last month will be a mystery to you today, if you came up with some neat rhythms back then.

FWIW, your notation looks a lot like the tune sheets that slide under those little trapezoidal melody harps with the horizontal strings, except yours is rotated 90 degrees. That's not a criticism -- that notation works for kids and beginners, but I forget how it handles timing.

I read music onto my Hayden just fine, tho admittedly I played piano and baritone horn and voice for many years.

The world, at least the squeezing part of it, is better off for having the Wicki/Hayden keyboard. But I don't know that we need another msuic notation scheme. Especially one that requires colors, tho you can probably find another way to mark up each symbol to show the octave.
--Mike K.




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