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What's The Difference From Wicki And Hayden Layout?


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#1 jjj

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 02:10 PM

From the Internet I downloaded the original Wicki patent script and to me it looks very much the same layout configuration.
Thus, I wonder what Hayden improved on it? Can anyone enlighten me on that? Thx in advance. :)

Edited by jjj, 21 March 2008 - 02:11 PM.


#2 wntrmute

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 02:40 PM

From the Internet I downloaded the original Wicki patent script and to me it looks very much the same layout configuration.
Thus, I wonder what Hayden improved on it? Can anyone enlighten me on that? Thx in advance. :)

One starts with a 'W.'

;)

I am sooooo getting banned soon.

#3 Dirge

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 02:46 PM

Doubt it. I'm still here...

#4 Chris Timson

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 03:35 PM

My understanding is that Brian Hayden quite independently came up with the same layout as Wicki, and then put a lot of effort into promoting the system. He did not improve on the system as such since he wasn't aware of its existence at the time he did his development work.

Ideally Inventor will pick this topic up and give us an authoritative reply.

One starts with a 'W.'

Actually, One starts with an 'O'.

Has anyone noticed where I put my coat?

Chris

Edited by Chris Timson, 21 March 2008 - 03:37 PM.


#5 jjj

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 05:06 PM

My understanding is that Brian Hayden quite independently came up with the same layout as Wicki, and then put a lot of effort into promoting the system. He did not improve on the system as such since he wasn't aware of its existence at the time he did his development work.

There must be more to it, because Kaspar Wicky patented it in 1896 and Brian Hayden patented it in 1986. I mean Brian couldn't be that ignorant... It's like saying: "Yesterday I invented the wheel so, that entitles me to patent it". That would only be possible if the invention had an advantage over the traditional wheel. Thus, what's the advantage of Brian's layout ? Maybe it's the way the Wicky's buttons are arranged on the concertina? :unsure:
Here I found both layouts, but I can't see anything different from Kaspar's layout (except that Brian was a Pommy and the other 'normal'...
Posted Image

Edited by jjj, 21 March 2008 - 05:38 PM.


#6 Boney

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 05:08 PM

I tend to say "Wicki" when I'm talking about the button layout in a general or theoretical way, and "Hayden" when I'm talking about its application on modern concertinas, especially in reference to his button spacing / size / slope recommendations. Then sometimes I'll say "Wicki/Hayden" just for the heck of it.

#7 Boney

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 05:25 PM

There must be more to it, because Kaspar Wicky patented it in 1896 and Brian Hayden patented it in 1986. I mean Brian couldn't be that ignorant...

Yes...Brian should have just done an internet search in the late '60s when he thought of the layout... ;)

The only thing "more to it" is that Kaspar Wicki's idea had faded into obscurity, and almost nobody knew about it. Read The Wicki System—an 1896 Precursor of the Hayden System:

There is no doubt that Brian Hayden independently re-discovered this keyboard layout in the late 1960s, as he has clearly described, and no doubt also that the idea was unfamiliar to (nearly) everyone who learned about the Hayden system thereafter.



#8 ragtimer

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 09:45 PM

From the Internet I downloaded the original Wicki patent script and to me it looks very much the same layout configuration.
Thus, I wonder what Hayden improved on it? Can anyone enlighten me on that? Thx in advance. :)

Yes, the two systems are the same. Somehow Brian's patent search (probably done with no computer aids at all) missed Kaspar WIcki's Swiss patent. ISTR other examples of inventions being re-patented.

What Brian Hayden did as an improvement, was to standardize for concertina usage the size and spacings (horiz. and vertical) of the buttons, and establish the tilt angle or slope of the button rows relative to the hand rest. He also shifted the rows enough so that a note's octave's button would not be directly above the note's button (where "directly above" means perpendicular to the hand rest), so octave jumps could be fingered more smoothly.

You'll notice that the Wicki patent merely shows a generic keyboard.

Also Brian promoted his system and got some concertina makers to build some instruments. I have yet to see any claims that a Wicki bandoneon was ever built, until Brian got Bastari to make a 67-key model (in the late 1980s?). I know that exists, because if I push back my computer chair too hard, I'll fall on one of them!

Remember, Robert Fulton was the third American to invent and build a steamboat. Fulton was just a little more successful at promoting his machine (and his design was a tad better too).
--Mike K.

Edited by ragtimer, 21 March 2008 - 09:47 PM.


#9 jjj

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 10:19 PM

What Brian Hayden did as an improvement, was to standardize for concertina usage the size and spacings (horiz. and vertical) of the buttons, and establish the tilt angle or slope of the button rows relative to the hand rest. He also shifted the rows enough so that a note's octave's button would not be directly above the note's button (where "directly above" means perpendicular to the hand rest), so octave jumps could be fingered more smoothly. You'll notice that the Wicki patent merely shows a generic keyboard.

Thx for that! So, Brian qualifies for patenting the improvements to the concertina' button size and spacing, but was not entitled to re-patent the layout as him being the inventor of it.
Also I read somewhere that Wicki copied his idea from Janko. Thus, Janko is the great thinker behind it; deserving all credit for this layout.

Edited by jjj, 21 March 2008 - 10:22 PM.


#10 ragtimer

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 11:11 AM

Thx for that! So, Brian qualifies for patenting the improvements to the concertina' button size and spacing, but was not entitled to re-patent the layout as him being the inventor of it.
Also I read somewhere that Wicki copied his idea from Janko. Thus, Janko is the great thinker behind it; deserving all credit for this layout.

I'd have to read the Wicki patent closely to see if WIcki was thinking of the Janko keyboard when he conceived his system. ISTR that Brian Hayden definitely looked at the Janko, and anyway we can ask him right here <_<

But don't forget, as I pointed out in that long keyboard thread, that if you take a Stradella bass row (AUstrian zithers also use the 5th spacing for their strings), and shift every other button up to form a new row, you get the first octave of a W/H layout.

So both Janko and whatever Italian invented the Stradella system (I think it's named after the city, not a person, anyone know?) might split the credit for inspiring the Wicki-Hayden scheme.

Anyway, W-H is fun to play :P --Mike K.

#11 jjj

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 05:08 PM

Anyway, W-H is fun to play :P --Mike K.

Sure is... Actually, I still can't believe my luck of having come to this forum to learn more about concertina keyboard layouts.
Normally, I would have never thought of it, because my musical sound fascination stems from bandoneon-, accordion-, organ sounds
and other polyphonic music instruments, such as orchestral music.

The fist time I heard live accordion music was in East Germany (aged 9) and I still remember having perceived the chords
as a 'tickling sensation' in top of my head... and that was it. I then bought my first accordion (2nd hand) accordion at age 16,
from the lousy trade apprenticeship pocket money I was offered. It was already then that I realized the absurdity of having
to learn to play the accordion 12 times in major & 12 time in minor! :rolleyes:

That's when I already build my own mechanical keyboard transposer (slider) via a wooden keyboard on an aluminum frame with ball bearings on
v- rails. That allowed me to play all scales in either C-major or A-minor.
Later on (in late sixties) I built my first electronic organ. If I would have known of Wicki's layout... that would have been my choice!
All that is left say now is: "Better late than never". Now knowing the advantages of the Wicki layout makes me hate the traditional zebra (piano) layout. I feel like having been conned and robbed of emotional creativity for decades !
I guess I'm not alone... for from what I observed, most musicians have no clue why music teachers and conservatories prefer 'going zebra' and do their best to suppress the existence of the Wicki (or lesser Janko) keyboard layout as a serious alternative...
That again shows how important it is to do our own reasoning and not trusting business oriented education authorities and organizations to guide us. It's the same with pious, business organizations (speak 'religions). Help yourself so helps you God! (Because if you don't their good Lord wouldn't even kick you to it!) Yes, we live in deceptive, selfish world... in which capitalism compels us to exploit each other. :(

Edited by jjj, 25 March 2008 - 10:27 AM.


#12 Hooves

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 06:10 PM

edited: wrong thread for response.

I found some more info on another thread where the Chromatone Janko Synth was mentioned.

Edited by Hooves, 25 March 2008 - 06:52 PM.


#13 inventor

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 06:58 AM

Patenting the Hayden System Concertina.

I came up with the idea entirely independantly of Wicki many years ago whilst trying to find a sensible way of altering a 50 button Jeffries Ab Duett concertina. I had recently sucessfully altered a 38 button Jeffries concertina so that the right hand played the same as my melodeon, which I had been playing at that time for about 10 years.
I tryed out many different ways of arranging the notes on the 50 button Ab over a period of a year destroying the instrument in the process, but finally came up with the very best solution. As the Jeffries was now completely unplayable I commisioned a new instrument from Harry Crabb & Sons, which eventually arrived nearly 7 years later. I was very pleased with the instrument it played beautifully.
I began to think of other instruments that the system might be applied to, and made a couple of hammer dulcimers which used the arrangement, and have an inventions book with all sorts of ideas in it. At the same time I became much more involved in concertina playing as a whole. I noted how many small Jeffries Duetts were being changed to Anglos, especially 44 button instruments; and considered that my instrument might end up the same way.
The internet didn't exsist at that time and magazines which I could (and did) write for were very effemeral; but one permanent way of publishing an Idea is to take out a Patent, all patents are theorectically never out of print.
The arrangement of notes was so good and seemed so obvious that I thought that someone must have come up with the Idea before. So I set about a search at the Patent Office to see if anyone had previously come up with the Idea. I read every patent that I could find; and did you know that the Janko Keyboard had already been proposed (in a 3 row form) by Trotter in 1811, Janko does not refer to the trotter patent; and the Jones patent for the idea of a third row of sharps and flats and reversals on the anglo had already been proposed for concertinas, let alone Bandoneon systems which existed at that time. However Jones was the man who produced the instruments in practical form; and Janko was the man who actually had Pianos made using that Idea.
I suspect that Wiki's idea met with a lot of opposition from the Bandoneon Establishment in Germany, and perhaps none were ever made; it was a case of the right time (Butterworth published the system which is now called "Crane" that year) but the wrong place.
Having found nothing like my arrangement of notes at the British Patent Office, I decided to go ahead and publish for 2 reasons:
1) After a near death experience, I considered that the Idea might be lost for ever if I didn't take out a Patent.
2) There was a competition at that time "The Prince of Wales award for Innovation and Industry" which gave substantial sums of Money to develop new Ideas. This required you to have Patent rights to your Idea in order to enter.
I waisted a whole year and a load of money researching and writing a Patent and dissertation for this competition. The Patent was eventually granted, after the Patent officers who must have had access to German Patents but didn't spot the Wicki Patent. However I did hear that in 1914 all German Patent Rights were cancelled and any British Company that wished to take over these rights, could. Perhaps someone with more knowlege of Patents could confirm or deny this.
My experience with the Crabb instrument did lead to improvements in the spacing angles, and size and shape of buttons, but this was not what the Patent depended on.
After I had invested a lot more money into getting instruments made and promoting the system, I was absolutely devestated to meet Maria Dunkel at a Halsey Manor Concertina Weekend, who showed me the Wicki Patent !
Inventor.

#14 ragtimer

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 12:53 PM

Patenting the Hayden System Concertina.

I came up with the idea entirely independantly of Wicki many years ago whilst trying to find a sensible way of altering a 50 button Jeffries Ab Duett concertina.

Thnaks for the personal history. It answers a lot of questions.

I began to think of other instruments that the system might be applied to, and made a couple of hammer dulcimers which used the arrangement, and have an inventions book with all sorts of ideas in it.

I'd be interested to see how the dulcimer strings are laid out.

At the same time I became much more involved in concertina playing as a whole. I noted how many small Jeffries Duetts were being changed to Anglos, especially 44 button instruments; and considered that my instrument might end up the same way.

I guess Jeffries Duets are too rare today to make into Haydens, but it somehow seems more "right" than converting them to plain Anglos -- wonder if anyone stil does htat?

The arrangement of notes was so good and seemed so obvious that I thought that someone must have come up with the Idea before. So I set about a search at the Patent Office to see if anyone had previously come up with the Idea.

I wonder who patented the Stradella Bass, and when.

However I did hear that in 1914 all German Patent Rights were cancelled and any British Company that wished to take over these rights, could. Perhaps someone with more knowlege of Patents could confirm or deny this.
My experience with the Crabb instrument did lead to improvements in the spacing angles, and size and shape of buttons, but this was not what the Patent depended on.

However, as long as you held the patent, you could license it to concertina makers only if they agreed to your button specs. Thus keeping everything standardized.

After I had invested a lot more money into getting instruments made and promoting the system, I was absolutely devestated to meet Maria Dunkel at a Halsey Manor Concertina Weekend, who showed me the Wicki Patent !
Inventor.

I'd always wondered, when and where you found out about the Wicki system, and how you felt!
Did the Wicki discovery invalidate your patent, or was it subsumed under the 1914 claim on German patents? Does the Wicki prior art enable Stagi to make their off-spec Hayden Duets?

Anyway, it was YOU that made it happen in the sqeezable world!
--Mike K.

Edited by ragtimer, 26 March 2008 - 12:55 PM.


#15 jjj

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 02:15 PM

Patenting the Hayden System Concertina.


Interesting story... yet I would have never thought of patenting any idea, because I more into enjoying emotional creativity than business aspirations. That's why I build my own instrument with MIDI and so, don't have to put up with demands of sordid business oriented musicians.

#16 Hooves

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 03:44 PM

Patenting the Hayden System Concertina.

I came up with the idea entirely independantly of Wicki many years ago whilst trying to find a sensible way of altering a 50 button Jeffries Ab Duett concertina.......

I read every patent that I could find; and did you know that the Janko Keyboard had already been proposed (in a 3 row form) by Trotter in 1811, Janko does not refer to the trotter patent; and the Jones patent for the idea of a third row of sharps and flats and reversals on the anglo had already been proposed for concertinas......

After I had invested a lot more money into getting instruments made and promoting the system, I was absolutely devestated to meet Maria Dunkel at a Halsey Manor Concertina Weekend, who showed me the Wicki Patent !
Inventor.


good show Inventor!

I don't think people are appreciating just how much effort you put into the system, your promoting of the system, and the pitfalls you delt with in your detective work. Hindsight is always 20-20: the fact you developed the system on your own is a credit to you and your work.

all this talk has actaully got me thinking about button arrangements again, though I doubt I could ever be so clever as to imagine the myriad systems on paper and in practice.

#17 Roger Gawley

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 08:07 AM

This sudden burst of interest in the Hayden duet is of great interest to me as I have just bought one of the square "bandonion" models.

Any guidance on playing it, helpful web resources etc, received with gratitude (and maybe even thanks).

I am in touch with Brian since I bought it from him,

Roger

#18 MusicScienceGuy

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 07:18 PM

Any guidance on playing it, helpful web resources etc, received with gratitude (and maybe even thanks).

I wrote this for jammer (like a concertina but wider, keywise) keyboards, but perhaps you will find it useful. Jammer playing - reading music scores.

Ken.




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