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#91 jjj

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 08:22 AM

(Sorry for not allowing myself to upset myself.)

True, because the joy of having discovered the wonderful W/H layout and in five minutes a Klavarskribo-style notation for it, makes me that happy
that nothing in the world can overshadow it! So, go on... feel free to call me what you want. I'll be more than pleased to respond kindly to you.
It might help you to calm down and relax; imagining serene music and enjoy inner contentment. That's what good music does to me and hope
will do to you as well. That's what music is all about. Now you might understand why I prefer serene music to polemic music... Have a nice day!

#92 ocd

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 09:25 AM

Out of free reeds only Russian B system players got close.
How you guys say? "The eating of a pudding is in the prove"?


(Sorry to reply late to this. ) It is a quote from Cervantes "La prueba del pudín consiste en comer" or "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

The Russian B system players are not the only ones that do justice to Bach: checkout the Goldberg Variations recorded by Stephan Hussong on the piano accordion-a Hohner Gola.

http://www.stefan-hussong.de/

Also, the CD of French Baroque music by Mie Miki, also on the piano accordion.

ocd

#93 m3838

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 02:53 PM

Out of free reeds only Russian B system players got close.
How you guys say? "The eating of a pudding is in the prove"?


(Sorry to reply late to this. ) It is a quote from Cervantes "La prueba del pudín consiste en comer" or "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

The Russian B system players are not the only ones that do justice to Bach: checkout the Goldberg Variations recorded by Stephan Hussong on the piano accordion-a Hohner Gola.

http://www.stefan-hussong.de/

Also, the CD of French Baroque music by Mie Miki, also on the piano accordion.

ocd


It was a joke about the pudding.
That german guy is a very good player. I did feel the difference between allumium reeds and copper plates though. The alluminium reedplates give sweeter sound, and russian system has more bite, at least in the big accordions. Gola is a dream instrument! Sure, I agree, PA and CBA players have achieved very high level of proficiency and their demand for quality instruments drives the makers to deliver. That's the point.

#94 jjj

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 04:57 PM

[/quote]
http://www.stefan-hussong.de/
That German guy is a very good player. I did feel the difference between aluminum reeds and copper plates though. The aluminum reedplates give sweeter sound, and Russian system has more bite, at least in the big accordions. Gola is a dream instrument! Sure, I agree, PA and CBA players have achieved very high level of proficiency and their demand for quality instruments drives the makers to deliver. That's the point.[/quote]
Yes, I'm still hunting for great/ sweet accordion samples and/or soundfonts. I found very good bandoneon sounds at www.sf2-files.com/ I uploaded an improved bandoneon.sf2 version. Roland VSC VST version has some great French & Ital accordion and bandoneon sounds, too.

#95 ocd

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 09:21 PM

I did feel the difference between allumium reeds and copper plates though. The alluminium reedplates give sweeter sound, and russian system has more bite, at least in the big accordions. Gola is a dream instrument! Sure, I agree, PA and CBA players have achieved very high level of proficiency and their demand for quality instruments drives the makers to deliver. That's the point.


Yes certainly the big bayans growl, particularly in the bass. I like to the sound of "Italian" reeds, particularly when in "cassotto." I suppose one's taste depends of what one grew up with.

ocd
Who has been known to cheat on his concertina with a big Giulietti stradella/bassetti (not a convertor, the thing with 174 buttons on the left hand).

#96 m3838

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 09:41 PM

I did feel the difference between allumium reeds and copper plates though. The alluminium reedplates give sweeter sound, and russian system has more bite, at least in the big accordions. Gola is a dream instrument! Sure, I agree, PA and CBA players have achieved very high level of proficiency and their demand for quality instruments drives the makers to deliver. That's the point.


Yes certainly the big bayans growl, particularly in the bass. I like to the sound of "Italian" reeds, particularly when in "cassotto." I suppose one's taste depends of what one grew up with.

ocd
Who has been known to cheat on his concertina with a big Giulietti stradella/bassetti (not a convertor, the thing with 174 buttons on the left hand).


No,no, don't get me wrong. I like all kinds of accordions and when I was growing up, bayans were looked down upon. Not because Russians liked pop more, they did, but to a point. It's largely because of State-wide abuse, "elevating" folk music to the classical level, using academic bayans for folk music, performed at un-imaginable professional level, in the same time practically abandoning diatonic accordions.
Piano accordion was all the fashion in the 50es, and generally there was no difference between the popular tastes on both sides of "Iron Curtain". It was pretty porous, that Curtain.
I'm simply making a point, that modern school of English Concertina playing doesn't present a demand for professional instruments, equal in quality to top level of Chromatic accordions, both button and piano.
The quality of action, bellows capacity, adequate to complex chordal work, without the necessity of directional change, reed response throughought the range, fullness of sound at top pitch, speed of response at low pitch, sustain of tuning at various loudness level.
All that supposed to be reflected in the playing of professionals. I haven't heard any EC at the level of top Accordion players. It's great to listen to old recordings, where masters demonstrate remarcable proficiency, but that's in the past. Everybody is talking about Antonelly reeds, that are very good, but no match for ancient "true" concertina reeds. As though there hasn't been any progress. Perhaps there hasn't been.

#97 ocd

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 10:27 AM

I'm simply making a point, that modern school of English Concertina playing doesn't present a demand for professional instruments, equal in quality to top level of Chromatic accordions, both button and piano.
The quality of action, bellows capacity, adequate to complex chordal work, without the necessity of directional change, reed response throughought the range, fullness of sound at top pitch, speed of response at low pitch, sustain of tuning at various loudness level.
All that supposed to be reflected in the playing of professionals. I haven't heard any EC at the level of top Accordion players. It's great to listen to old recordings, where masters demonstrate remarcable proficiency, but that's in the past. Everybody is talking about Antonelly reeds, that are very good, but no match for ancient "true" concertina reeds. As though there hasn't been any progress. Perhaps there hasn't been.


The concertinas of Wim Wakker, I believe, are at least at the same level of quality of the best accordions *I* have played (Giulietti Continentals and Super Continentals). Admittedly I have not played any Russian-made CBAs.

As for the playing of professionals: you might want to take a listen at

http://www.amazon.co...-...3752&sr=1-2

Also

http://www.concertin.../soundfiles.htm

Clearly we could quibble about how these compare to top-rated CBA players, but these recordings are representative of what can be done with the EC.

Admittedly the market for the EC is much smaller than that of the CBA and that does make a difference on the availability of top rated instruments.

ocd

#98 m3838

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:38 PM

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Regondi-Vol-1-...3752&sr=1-2



I have this one. To my taste, Regondi's compositions are boring and overy chordy, which is not concertina's strengh. Perhaps, in Regondi's time most of EC's were tuned just, and it made the difference, but that aside, playing is not up to admtting level of peripherial Conservatory in former USSR. Admttedly, Russian musical education is aimed at creating few professionals, and majority just dropping off. But the high level is there.
I mainly judge by the often "on-off" feel of concertina playing. I'm sure musicians are aware of that and try hard to add expression, but it just doesn't come through enough.

http://www.concertin.../soundfiles.htm

This site's mp3's were listened by me over and over, and I have to say, with frustration.
Same problems: powerful chords make an impression of a bunch of sea lions. Probably it's due to equal tuning, I don't know. But may be the timbre of concertina reed in small box doesn't allow for unlimited use of big chords. I mostly liked the fast single line arrangements without the piano or strings. Concertina has very moody tone, and I think it would be great for doleful Yiddish songs, and it's one of the reasons I bought mine. But the thin metallic sound accompanied by piano is less then impressive. Clearly a composition made for another instrument, with more substantial presence.
Now, keep in mind, I don't intend to diminish what has been done, I just suspect that so far, the relative surge of concertina popularity hasn't yet produced musicians, who crossed the treshhold of acceptable quality, equal to other "academic" instruments. And EC is an academic instrument, designed for "classical" music. Very well may be that it was a dead end with short life span, and it is simply not capable of the level of expression, associated with "serious" instrument. But I don't see why.
I haven't played top end Wakker, but I have played top end Wheatstone and Lachenal at our local "Lark in the Morning" on few ocasions. My hand made bayan compares more than favorably in it's voicing, ease to speak (at 20lbs), balance between low and high, power of high reeds. To my dismay even 'my' (now sold) off the shelf Weltmeister spoke with more ease than 'my' Albion. It was a subject of many discussions, and the resume was that due to small concertina size it is inborn. Well, why not make them slightly bigger then? Castagnari Tommy plays itself and it's small.
I think we are resting upon the euphoria of belonging to small exclusive clan, where the very vact of holding little multy-faseted box with bellows is subject of expected praise.
That's why I'm very excited about the braveness of Herrington and Tedrow. Too bad I don't play Anglo now due to some nerve problem in my palm.
http://www.concertin.../soundfiles.htm

#99 ocd

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 03:24 PM

I think we are resting upon the euphoria of belonging to small exclusive clan, where the very vact of holding little multy-faseted box with bellows is subject of expected praise.
That's why I'm very excited about the braveness of Herrington and Tedrow. Too bad I don't play Anglo now due to some nerve problem in my palm.


I am sorry to hear that you are not enjoying the concertina. Good luck!

ocd

#100 m3838

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 03:55 PM

I am sorry to hear that you are not enjoying the concertina. Good luck!


Hm. I'm not enjoying of been an amateur who without guidance, and sick of been euphoric about learning to not use same finger on two consecutive buttons (and who said this?). For which reason I'm looking for guidance elsewere and find abandance of it among violin, cello, accordion players. A pity, a violin player could give interesting insights. Anyways, I'm listening to Piano playing of Gould now and my jaw is on the floor. I love folk music, but don't have time for my Club.
Thanks for the wishing of good luck :D

#101 Dirge

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 06:56 PM

Having got the basic concertina technique in place by myself, I now go (infrequently; it's pricey) to a viola player for critical lessons; I work on the principle that I don't need a concertina player to tell me how to get the best out of a tune, just a good musician, and that a bowed instrument background is fine for commenting on expression and technique.

Her brief is to criticise without trying to allow for the instrument; she may suspect that such-and-such an undesirable effect is unavoidable with the 'box but we always talk it through and I can then work on eliminating or minimising it.

(She also came up with singing along with the tune to stop yourself pulling faces when concentrating, so we now know why Glen Gould did that.)

What I pay for is an educated, critical and unbiassed ear with some continuing general musicianship development thrown in.

Tape recording myself and listening didn't seem to work for me. Why don't you formalise what you've already suggested and find a pro violin teacher for occasional sessions? I book myself in with Nancy whenever I have some new music starting to approach completion, in the hope of finding that extra polish or nuance. The rate things seem to go at the moment it isn't too expensive a luxury, irritatingly.

#102 m3838

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 08:10 PM

I must have been drunk when I typed my post.
What a bunch of typos. I laughed when I read it a few minutes ago. But at least it gave me a few good moments off work. Wow!
Here's my post without typos again. Sorry for repeating, it's boring, but I can't let it go as is:

Hm. I'm not enjoying of been an amateur without guidance, and I amsick of being euphoric about learning to not use same finger on two consecutive buttons (and who said this?). For which reason I'm looking for guidance elsewere and find abandance of it among violin, cello, accordion players. But all of those I approach shy away from teaching someone with unfamiliar instrument. A pity, a violin player could give interesting insights. Anyways, I'm listening to Piano playing of Gould now and my jaw is on the floor. I love folk music, but don't have time for my Club.
Thanks for wishing me a good luck.

I agree with Dirge, but so far can't find anybody around me. There is this woman at work, former pupil or the pupil of, incidentally, Rostropovich, Viola player, and I have approached her. We'll see.


#103 jjj

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Posted 19 March 2008 - 06:16 PM

My triumph march continues! At first I wanted to build my own SPST pushbutton switches, but since http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp?product_id=74315 have got the right type for only 13 cents each, I'm not wasting my time building them. It's pretty hard to make them equal heights etc. and so much easier to just stick and glue ready switches onto a wooden panel and wire them up from underneath. In that regard nothing surpasses machined parts. Connecting them to my Roland Synth is another advantage, costing me only time. Any time later, I can even parallel them up to another keyboard, if desired. Another hurdle: The surplus-warehouse told me that they are moving and they cannot locate the buttons for the switches. So, I just have to wait and pray... :)




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