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#19 KeithB

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 06:03 AM

Sounds a bit light to me, Paul. I just sold a late-ish (1949) extended treble Aeola to a friend for £1950. (Steve Dickinson suggested £2000 to £2500.) Admittedly there seems to be some doubt about the range of this one, but it's clearly a cracker, and if it was refurbished 20 years ago, it may well already be in concert pitch.
I did actually suggest a word with Chris Algar a couple of days ago, but my reply seems to have got lost in the ether. I also suggested that there would be several readers of this forum who would be happy to pay £2000 for it - mainly on the grounds that I would expect it to fetch at least £2500 when restored.

Hi Dave, That's why it's best to avoid giving this sort of advice. Ah well. I actually missed the bit about it being restored 20 years back. I started at GBP2500 for a 56b restored tenor treble and reduced it to allow for work and for the extra buttons. If I'd put a range it would have been upwards. I looked through the records for the last few years and as usual the prices are variable but your 2k would be in the ballpark I think (say 1900 to 2200?). Restored it may be a bit more.




Firstly massive thanks to everyone who has contributed. I no longer feel so alone. But also realise again how little I know and how much there is to know. So apparently our little 'tina is on concert pitch and is in tune (my father-in-law is far more musical than I and tested this against his paino). Also the bottom note is the F below the C below middle C. I'm really hoping this means more to everyone out there than it means to me.

#20 Mike Pierceall

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 09:11 AM

Firstly massive thanks to everyone who has contributed. I no longer feel so alone. But also realise again how little I know and how much there is to know. So apparently our little 'tina is on concert pitch and is in tune (my father-in-law is far more musical than I and tested this against his paino). Also the bottom note is the F below the C below middle C. I'm really hoping this means more to everyone out there than it means to me.


Can others confirm? I would call that a baritone-treble - same upper range as a tenor-treble but with an additional 8 keys below a TT. Mike

#21 Greg Jowaisas

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 10:20 AM

Baritone/treble confirmed.

Four whole steps lower than a t/t. Certainly not as nimble as a tenor/treble but the extra low notes give it an added dimension for accompaniment and ensemble playing. (I usually back up the anglos at the local Irish music school Christmas program with a b/t.)

Maybe not as practical as your only instrument but a great second instrument to a treble.

I'd expect a tuned, working instrument buy price around $5000. USD.

Greg

#22 swisspeter

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 04:06 AM

Hello Keith

This thread has only just caught my attention now. So many replies within just five days and all quiet afterwards. Have you sold the instrument or do you still have it? Do you still want to sell it or do you want to keep it?

Sincerely yours,

Peter

#23 KeithB

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 03:50 AM

Hello Keith

This thread has only just caught my attention now. So many replies within just five days and all quiet afterwards. Have you sold the instrument or do you still have it? Do you still want to sell it or do you want to keep it?

Sincerely yours,

Peter


Not 100% sure if I've replied to you on this. I do still have our 'tina.
I'm meeting someone tomorrow night to give her a squeeze, to make sure she's in tune etc.
I'm still keen on selling - but I need to feel comfortable I'm getting a fair price.
Any offers welcome. Thanks for you interest.
Keith

#24 Leonard

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 07:58 AM

Baritone/treble confirmed.

Four whole steps lower than a t/t.


I would call this a Baritone-Tenor.
  • On a Treble middle C is on the left hand side in line with the middle of the thumb strap. (Call this position "mid-TS")
  • On a Tenor mid-TS is F below middle C.
  • On a Baritone mid-TS is C below middle C.
  • On a Tenor-Treble mid-TS is middle C, like a Treble, extended below mid-TS with 4 buttons on each side, going down to C below middle C on the right hand side.
  • On a Baritone-Treble mid-TS is a middle C, like a Treble, extended below mid-TS with 8 buttons on each side, going down to F below C below middle C on the right hand side.
On the picture of the left hand side you can see no more than 4 extra buttons below mid-TS.
If the bottom note is F below C below middle C, than mid-TS is F below middle C, like a Tenor.

Hence a Baritone-Tenor.
Or an Extended Baritone-Tenor, given the 2x4 extra buttons at the higher end, extending the range as high as a Treble.

The importance of all this is not in the name:
When you're used to play a Treble, a Tenor-Treble or Baritone-Treble gives you just the extra notes at the lower range.
When you play the same music on a (Baritone-)Tenor, you have to transpose.

#25 JimLucas

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 10:36 AM

Baritone/treble confirmed.
Four whole steps lower than a t/t.

I would call this a Baritone-Tenor.

I would not.
It's what the Wheatstone ledgers call a baritone-treble.
It extends four whole steps lower than a tenor-treble, but that's not the same as every note being pitched exactly that amount below the equivalently located note on a tenor-treble.

  • On a Treble middle C is on the left hand side in line with the middle of the thumb strap. (Call this position "mid-TS")
  • On a Tenor mid-TS is F below middle C.
  • On a Baritone mid-TS is C below middle C.
  • On a Tenor-Treble mid-TS is middle C, like a Treble, extended below mid-TS with 4 buttons on each side, going down to C below middle C on the right hand side.
  • On a Baritone-Treble mid-TS is a middle C, like a Treble, extended below mid-TS with 8 buttons on each side, going down to F below C below middle C on the right hand side.
On the picture of the left hand side you can see no more than 4 extra buttons below mid-TS.
If the bottom note is F below C below middle C, than mid-TS is F below middle C, like a Tenor.

No, the naming convention has nothing to do with what note is next to the thumbstrap, except incidentally. (Would my baritone-treble suddenly become a tenor-treble if I moved the thumbstraps "up" a row? I don't think so.)

It has to do with where the notes are placed in terms of which end of the instrument and which side of the center line of the button array. If in those terms the notes are placed the same as on a standard treble, then the instrument is either a "treble" or a "[something]-treble". The something then indicates how low the instrument's range extends. A "tenor-treble" extends downward from the treble range to C-below-middle-C (the low note on a viola, or "tenor" viol). A "baritone-treble" extends that pattern down even further. For the same fingering, a standard "baritone" sounds an octave lower than a treble, and a "bass-baritone" extends the baritone pattern down to the bass range, so the whole thing is an octave lower than the tenor-treble.

The importance of all this is not in the name:
When you're used to play a Treble, a Tenor-Treble or Baritone-Treble gives you just the extra notes at the lower range.
When you play the same music on a (Baritone-)Tenor, you have to transpose.

Well, I've never heard the term "baritione-tenor" before your post, Leonard, but I assure you that on my own "baritone-treble", 1) the note inboard of the center of the left-hand thumb strap is F below middle C, and 2) it is most definitely not a transposing instrument.

On my 64-button baritone-treble the buttons are in exactly the same placement relative to the thumb straps as on my 64-button tenor-treble, but the notes are not. And I repeat, it is not a transposing instrument.

Your theory about the relationship between the location of middle C relative to the thumb strap and transposing instruments is interesting, but I have yet to encounter such a transposing instrument, yet I have handled more instruments than my own which provide counter examples. Have you really seen what you call "baritone-tenor" concertinas, i.e., with buttons laid out like my baritone-treble, but with the central columns of buttons not all notes of the C scale? And how many transposing "tenors", for that matter? An old friend of mine had a 48-button "tenor" (I think Wheatstone would still have called it a "tenor-treble"), and it was not transposing.

#26 Leonard

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 05:21 PM

Thank you for your reaction, Jim.
Apparently I made some wrong assumptions.
And I think I misused the word "transpose".

Earlier topics about the different types of english concertinas didn't give answers to unsolved questions.
For example: what's the difference between AEola 56-key Baritones and 56-key Baritone-Trebles (model 14 and 20a in the Wheatstone price lists in the 20's and 30's)

But I'll start a new topic for this subject later.

#27 swisspeter

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 04:27 AM

Not 100% sure if I've replied to you on this. I do still have our 'tina.
I'm meeting someone tomorrow night to give her a squeeze, to make sure she's in tune etc.
I'm still keen on selling - but I need to feel comfortable I'm getting a fair price.
Any offers welcome. Thanks for you interest.
Keith


Dear Keith

No, you hadn't replied before. Thanks for replying now! Of course you wouldn't want to receive too little and I wouldn't want to pay too much. But I think that wouldn't be the problem; we would find a price which we both considered fair.

When I made my post I was just caught by the beauty of the instrument and the imagination of what it might sound like. It must be beautiful for slow music! But then again, I am just more and more getting into fast music like Irish Folk, and so I think I should stick with my small and light instrument.

What's the size and weight of this instrument?

Sincerely yours,

Peter

#28 KeithB

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Posted 17 October 2008 - 02:16 AM

Just got around to putting my lovely 'tina on ebay if anyone's interested

Wheatstone Concertina 64 key Baritone Treble(260300076267)

#29 Wendy M. Grossman

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Posted 17 October 2008 - 12:56 PM

(In most cases I doubt it is what the original player would have wanted either. "Grandad, when you're gone, would you like me to stick your concertina in its box and never touch it until I'm dead too in the hope some future generation will want it one day, or sell it to an enthusiast who will play it so I can use the money to buy something worthwhile for your grandchildren?". What do you think he'd say?)

You could keep it as an investment until you really need the money - a form of insurance, really. The extra cash at the right moment for emergency purposes or just to give yourself something you really want or need. I would guess that it is appreciating in value more than a savings account. Mike


He can loan it to ME. I promise to take good care of it until he needs the money. :)

wg

#30 KeithB

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 01:31 PM

(In most cases I doubt it is what the original player would have wanted either. "Grandad, when you're gone, would you like me to stick your concertina in its box and never touch it until I'm dead too in the hope some future generation will want it one day, or sell it to an enthusiast who will play it so I can use the money to buy something worthwhile for your grandchildren?". What do you think he'd say?)

You could keep it as an investment until you really need the money - a form of insurance, really. The extra cash at the right moment for emergency purposes or just to give yourself something you really want or need. I would guess that it is appreciating in value more than a savings account. Mike


He can loan it to ME. I promise to take good care of it until he needs the money. :)

wg


massively generous offer - I'll pass it on for consideration :D

#31 KeithB

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 01:35 PM

someone has just asked me

can you please confirm keyboard arrangement. is this a true baritone i.e. notes corresponding to an octave lower than a treble- or is it that the range is baritone to treble, with key arrangement on the upper part as a treble. if you can confirm keyboard, or lowest note on which side, this would greatly help. many thanks

I'm afraid I've no idea - anyone any clues?

#32 John Adey

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 04:00 PM

someone has just asked me

can you please confirm keyboard arrangement. is this a true baritone i.e. notes corresponding to an octave lower than a treble- or is it that the range is baritone to treble, with key arrangement on the upper part as a treble. if you can confirm keyboard, or lowest note on which side, this would greatly help. many thanks

I'm afraid I've no idea - anyone any clues?


Going on what has been posted before it sounds as if this has a downward progression from a conventional treble layout, which means the lower keys in the baritone range are on the opposite side of the instrument compared with a straight, what you refer to as a'true', baritone instrument where the layout is as a treble but an octave lower.

Colin Dipper brought a similarly keyed tenor-baritone to Kilve this last weekend, which was interesting but not easy to find your way around if you were used to playing a conventional treble or baritone.

Edited by John Adey, 21 October 2008 - 04:07 PM.


#33 Dieppe

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 05:24 PM

Well, there it is! Way out of my price range, but dang if that's not going to make someone a fine instrument! And it'll probably go for higher than the current bid is...

#34 KeithB

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 12:25 AM

someone has just asked me

can you please confirm keyboard arrangement. is this a true baritone i.e. notes corresponding to an octave lower than a treble- or is it that the range is baritone to treble, with key arrangement on the upper part as a treble. if you can confirm keyboard, or lowest note on which side, this would greatly help. many thanks

I'm afraid I've no idea - anyone any clues?


Going on what has been posted before it sounds as if this has a downward progression from a conventional treble layout, which means the lower keys in the baritone range are on the opposite side of the instrument compared with a straight, what you refer to as a'true', baritone instrument where the layout is as a treble but an octave lower.

Colin Dipper brought a similarly keyed tenor-baritone to Kilve this last weekend, which was interesting but not easy to find your way around if you were used to playing a conventional treble or baritone.



Many thanks - I'll pass this on

#35 KeithB

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 03:35 PM

Less than 24 hours to go.... please have a look .... we really want our 'tina to go to a good home...

#36 Ptarmigan

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Posted 26 October 2008 - 03:03 PM

Less than 24 hours to go.... please have a look .... we really want our 'tina to go to a good home...


£4,141.00

Congratulations Keith.

Seems like a very good price for a quality instrument.

I trust you are satisfied with the highest bid?




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