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#19 JimLucas

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 08:15 AM

You say you want to "better understand English character" but you seem to be confusing English & British so its difficult to understand precisely what you are looking for. You may think that using the term English & British interchangeably makes sense but it doesn't.

Woody, it seems to me that to you it doesn't make sense, though Misha thinks it does.

Assuming from your location (Wiltshire) that you are English, perhaps he could use the difference in your perceptions to "better understand English character". B)

#20 Woody

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 09:20 AM

You say you want to "better understand English character" but you seem to be confusing English & British so its difficult to understand precisely what you are looking for. You may think that using the term English & British interchangeably makes sense but it doesn't.

Woody, it seems to me that to you it doesn't make sense, though Misha thinks it does.

Assuming from your location (Wiltshire) that you are English, perhaps he could use the difference in your perceptions to "better understand English character". B)

:) Well it may be me, but it seems easy enough, but then I'm English with a heavy dose of Scots ancestry.

If you mean the people of the UK you can say "British" to convey this without offending too many people.
If you mean the people of England you can say "English".
If you mean British songs in the English language you can say "British songs in the English language" and for English songs in the English Language "English songs in the English Language".

One definite element of the "British character" is that the non-English British get pretty grumpy if people call them English.

;)

#21 davidcorner

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 12:31 PM

Here's a song sung to the tune of Lilly Marlene, The D Day Dodgers. Many British troops stationed in Italy during WW2 felt disenfranchised and undervalued, apparent in this scathing attack on the public opinion of the day.

Lady Astor had referred to the Italian troops as D-Day Dodgers, hence the title.
Hamish always claimed that he had only added to a song already in circulation, but I'm sure he had a large hand in it.
He was amused to find that the song had made its way back to Britain by the folk process long before he did.

Another song of Hamish's is The Highland Division's Farewell to Sicily often known simply as The Banks of Sicily.
Hamish told the story of how, in Sicily, as he was listening to a pipe band play the tune Farewell to the Creeks, the words of the song came into his head.

In terms of tunes, there are numerous Scottish pipe tunes with a WW2 connection.
Just a few:
The 10th HLI Crossing the Rhine
The Heights of Cassino
El Alamein
Highland Brigade at Wadi Akarit
Kantara to El Arish

In fact, anywhere that Scottish regiments have been, someone has written a tune.
There's a lovely slow air from the 1990s called The Sands of Kuwait.

#22 Dieppe

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 02:19 PM

I don't know why but I first read this topic as "Wii Songs" as in the Nintendo Wii.. and songs of Depression. As in when someone is trying to find a Nintendo Wii before Christmas for their kids, and can't find one. Yeah, that kind of Depression...

Silly me, I know. :)

#23 Leo

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 02:47 PM

Hey M3838

Is this what you're looking for? Definitely from the trenches.
http://www.amazon.co...mortaliacom-21/

On this page, click on "Recordings" on the left, then "1940s" on the left. The second item down on the list is a sample of the album in mp3 to listen, with a good description of each lower down the page.
http://www.immortalia.com/

If you click on the front page "Songbooks", there are by date a few collections of songs.

Thanks
Leo

#24 m3838

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 02:48 PM

Woody, you didn't anger me in any way.
We, on the other side of the Channell so to speak, representatives of the 1/6th of the Globe's land, in between fencing off great Russian Polar bears in KGB hats, use the word "English" as denominator of the country, located on some cold rainy islands, just North of Europe. (Scandinavia is entirely different matter, it's the Heaven on Earth, and is located in the heart of every Russian, be he of Tadjik, Tuvan or Ukrainian descent).
When we say "British", we want to emphasize political aspect, usually negative or slightly ironic. Like British Sahib in India, with a stick, been carried by riksha, or British Airforce officer in sleek uniform with the omni-present stick, whch Russians call "Stehk".
If Scots get grumpy, when they are called "English" by people, who they call "Russians", they can polish my boots.
I'm from Belarus, a belorussian jew of Polish descent, very much a standard for Russian Jewry, and I'm an Atheist with strong Socialistic inclinations, again, very typical for Eastern European Jews. But I don't mind if you call me Russian. After all I speak Russian, and Russian culture is closer to me than Belorussian and Yiddish. Very typical.
So far I can see the difference between "British" and ...mm, "Soviet" songs lays in perceptioin of life.
English, I mean British, perceive war as a temporary event, and focus on up-beat feelings and expectations to live in peace after the Victory. "Russians" focus on every day life in the war and expect to die for the sake of Victory. Then there's fair amount of Fatalism.They may also be a bit sappy to Teutonic mindset, just like "British" and American songs are a bit too glossy and detouched.
But I have to hear more.

#25 m3838

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 03:06 PM

On this page, click on "Recordings" on the left, then "1940s" on the left. The second item down on the list is a sample of the album in mp3 to listen, with a good description of each lower down the page.
http://www.immortalia.com/


Made a bookmark, thanks. Awsome resource!

#26 Woody

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 03:04 AM

If Scots get grumpy, when they are called "English" by people, who they call "Russians", they can polish my boots.
I'm from Belarus....

If a Scots person were to call you Russian and you then pointed out to them that you are actually Belarusian, I suspect that out of politeness they'd say something like "Oh I'm sorry! I mean Belarusian" and then call you Belarusian from then on. I doubt very much that they'd proceed to tell you how it was fair enough to continue to call you Russian because none of their compatriots know the difference. :)

#27 gibet_b

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 04:44 AM

I don't know why but I first read this topic as "Wii Songs" as in the Nintendo Wii..


Me too :lol: :lol:

#28 m3838

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 11:51 AM

If Scots get grumpy, when they are called "English" by people, who they call "Russians", they can polish my boots.
I'm from Belarus....

If a Scots person were to call you Russian and you then pointed out to them that you are actually Belarusian, I suspect that out of politeness they'd say something like "Oh I'm sorry! I mean Belarusian" and then call you Belarusian from then on. I doubt very much that they'd proceed to tell you how it was fair enough to continue to call you Russian because none of their compatriots know the difference. :)

But I'm not Belorussian! That's the whole trick. If a song is in English, it's hard to call it British. Not that it shouldn't be, but it just doesn't stick. Just like Russian songs about Ukraine. You'd be twisting your brain figuring out how not to offend some hard core Ukrainian nationalists. And in the end of day you'd still offend them, because that's what they are bent on.
Just like the infamous call: "The English a'comin', the English a'comin'". Now let's start correcting the Colonists, saying that among the British troops were Scottish regiments. :D
Or we can concentrate on the songs of the era, both from the Colonists' and "English" sides.
As far as I'm concerned, if a song is written in English, Russian or Estonian, it's respectively English, Russian and Estonian song. Sure, upon closer examination we realize that English song is written by an Irishman, Russian by the Jew and Estonian is done by the Swede.
Are there any popular Scottish wwII songs, translated into English? I personally prefer Scottish music to English or Irish, that much I can say. I'd be interested to listen to some more folky war songs, rather than smooth jazz of the time.

#29 Woody

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 03:35 PM

But I'm not Belorussian!

Blimey! Then they'd call you whatever you told them it was correct to call you. They just wouldn't persist in calling you something different after you'd pointed out their (easy to make) mistake, as to continue to do so would (I believe) be considered by most cultures to be rude.

As far as I'm concerned, if a song is written in English, Russian or Estonian, it's respectively English, Russian and Estonian song. Sure, upon closer examination we realize that English song is written by an Irishman, Russian by the Jew and Estonian is done by the Swede.

So presumably "Waltzing Matilda", "Come Out Ye Black and Tans", "Free Nelson Mandela" and "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" are English songs?

Just like the infamous call: "The English a'comin', the English a'comin'". Now let's start correcting the Colonists, saying that among the British troops were Scottish regiments.

Presumably you're talking about the American War of Independence so they may well have been correct. As the colonists were British themselves they probably knew where the troops were "a'comin" from. :lol:


I really don't see the problem here - surely your aim is to be understood? Paraphrasing what I said before....

If you want to know about English language songs then say "English Language Songs"
If you want to know about songs by English people then say "Songs by English People" (though you might get a few in Cornish!)
If you want songs in the English language by British people about WW2 then just say "songs in the English language by British people about WW2" & that should remove any possible confusion.

#30 Dirge

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 04:05 PM

Nice try Woody but:

1) I would call M3838 whatever he wanted to be called to his face but probably still describe him as 'that Russian Bloke on Cnet' to others.
2) Weren't American Rebellion War soldiers mostly 'Hessians', from Hanover? I'd call them Germans but that's probably wrong too.

#31 Woody

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 05:56 PM

2) Weren't American Rebellion War soldiers mostly 'Hessians', from Hanover? I'd call them Germans but that's probably wrong too.

Interesting to read up on this. The Hessians came from Hesse-Kassel which was technically part of the Holy Roman Empire at the time, so maybe the correct shout should have been "The Romans are a'comin! The Romans are a'comin". B)

#32 m3838

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 06:17 PM

1) I would call M3838 whatever he wanted to be called to his face but probably still describe him as 'that Russian Bloke on Cnet' to others

.
That's the point!
Knowing perfectly well, that I'm addressed as "Russian" by most locals in US and UK, I hope I'm excused to call all ethnicities in Britain "English". with the caveat, that I understand (thanks to Woody and others) that there is a fair amount of bitterness within the Union towards the English, been dominant and imposing their language on Scotts, Welsh and Irish.
As another excuse, please accept that in Russian Language there is no other term for the UK as "Anglia". Great Britain has translation into Russian, but very long: "Velikobritania", and "Britain" has no useage.
When we say "Anglia", we mean Sherlock Holmes. When we say "Velikobritania", we mean Margaret Thatcher.
We also incorrectly address the US as "America".

#33 Dirge

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 07:27 PM

If you have a friendly Canadian handy I can recommend casually describing him to his face as 'American', letting him bluster, then driving him into a corner where he eventually comes up with the 'Well technically, I suppose....' bit.

Excellent sport. Needs no special equipment and more pc than badger baiting.

The trouble is I've only been able to play it twice, then I ran out of Canadians.

#34 m3838

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 07:49 PM

If you have a friendly Canadian handy I can recommend casually describing him to his face as 'American', letting him bluster, then driving him into a corner where he eventually comes up with the 'Well technically, I suppose....' bit.

Excellent sport. Needs no special equipment and more pc than badger baiting.

The trouble is I've only been able to play it twice, then I ran out of Canadians.

Oh, I've got plenty of Canadians over here.

#35 Woody

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 07:56 PM

Knowing perfectly well, that I'm addressed as "Russian" by most locals in US and UK,

Blimey! Most people in the US & UK know you? I didn't know you were famous. Are you Putin???

I hope I'm excused to call all ethnicities in Britain "English"

Of course you're not - that would just be silly. It's like saying "I hope I'm excused to call all people Trevor".


I really couldn't give a toss what you call us except that if you're asking a question you need to use accurate language so that people understand what it is that you want to know. Wrong words = wrong answers. This is what I've been trying to point out to you.

It does seem strange to me that you say you want to learn more about the English, but when you do learn something about us you insist on ignoring it. :rolleyes:

#36 m3838

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 10:07 PM

Blimey! Most people in the US & UK know you? I didn't know you were famous. Are you Putin???


Wrong wording. "Most of people I came to contact with".

I hope I'm excused to call all ethnicities in Britain "English"

Of course you're not - that would just be silly. It's like saying "I hope I'm excused to call all people Trevor".


Wrong wording: "I hope to be excused for calling...

I really couldn't give a toss what you call us except that if you're asking a question you need to use accurate language so that people understand what it is that you want to know.

I did get right answers though. So the words I choose in my naivetey were good enough for most respondents.

It does seem strange to me that you say you want to learn more about the English, but when you do learn something about us you insist on ignoring it.

No, no, I'm not ignoring it. I noted it. You don't seem to accept that distance makes difference.
One has to maintain a scale. I'll be much more careful while traveling in the UK, but back home "I've visited England".
There are times, like the WWII, when all the grumps are put aside, and all act as one. And no matter how we want it, people around the Globe usually address the Nation by it's main ethnicity.
So the UK is England, and USSR is Russia, what can you do? France and Germany are too, not as monolitic as they appear from the outside.

P.S.
On a funny note.
Once I had a book of chinese stories. The stories were assembled by Soo Lin Poh from around the entire China.
In the tytle page there were names of authors, and I made a chinese sounding song with words, consisting of the names of these authors. It was successfully sang to Chinese delegation, and they thought it's a real song, only in unknown dialect. :D
Another song was from Russo-Japanese military phrase book. That too, was taken for real thing at first by some Japanese animators at a festival. But then the trick was explained and the song was sang again. This time the Japanese were loughing so hard, a few of them fell off their chairs. The melody is of real song, telling about Russo-Japanese conflict around the lake Hasan in 1938, so there's lots of pun there.




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