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First Hybrid--what About Mayfair? Bastari? Norman's Saxon? Marcus


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#37 JimLucas

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 03:00 AM

...let me propose a potential label: "new breed". New Breed concertinas. How does it sound?

Well, I started this thread building on Dan's post, where he said "hybrid". I had a good idea from the context of what kind of concertina he meant, and I would imagine that you did too,...

I did, indeed.
But since we disagree on exactly what it was he meant -- or what the term "hybrid" in more general usage means, -- at least one of us must be wrong.

I wouldn't mind using a different term if others understood what I was talking about. ... But "new breed" in particular (or "new" anything) could get confusing when something newer comes along.

Isn't the art world already well past its "post modern" phase? :D It may seem contradictory, but I don't think they're confused about it.

Besides, that was just one suggestion. Maybe there will be others.

#38 Richard Morse

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 07:15 AM

I think the thing we're trying to do (or considering attempting to do) is to put a label on the type of instruments many of us are currently making so that they can be referred to as a class or type by a single word (or couple?) rather than a long description that can easily be adulterated and/or misconstrued.

But as I see it, you're trying to do so by adulterating and misconstruing what is already a much used and well understood single word. My complaint is not that you want such a label, but that "hybrid" is an inappropriate choice for the restricted definition you and Daniel seem to be espousing.

I agree!

In fact, let me propose a potential label: "new breed". New Breed concertinas. How does it sound?

Like it can be confusing particularly when newer designs come along. Look how many people are confused with what "oldies" music is, or "vintage" clothing. Sure some things have come into their own (new wave? Nouveau art, classic cars) but it would be nice to have a word that is unambiguous.

I remember several years ago when there was a plethora of words trying to pin down how to label squeezeboxes that played the same note on the push/pull or different notes. Things seemed to settle around sonority, and now people seem comfortable talking about unisonorous and bisonorous boxes and know exactly what it means.

-- Rich --

#39 Richard Morse

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 07:21 AM

Since Jim asked, I'll say I had meant the term 'hybrid' to mean an anglo built by taking a handful or two of individually framed Italian reeds and affixing them to a nice (non-wooden) action to make them sound as truly (anglo- or English-) concertina-like as possible.

It would be more conclusive and accurate to say that you had meant the term "hybrid" to mean....

Rich, I think Dan is quite articulate and I believe that he meant what he said, not what you wish he had said.[/indent]

Then it appears that he's intentionally excluding our English concertinas and the Tedrow duets. I wonder why?

-- Rich --

#40 wntrmute

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 08:04 AM

Thinking about the Jackie/Rochelle design makes me see the point of Ted's suggestion, since we have no name at all for that combination of design features and I would expect that other new combinations will come along too.

Semi-hybrid?
Sino-Anglo-German?
Heterohybridialfragilistic? :o

#41 David Barnert

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 08:33 AM

In fact, let me propose a potential label: "new breed". New Breed concertinas. How does it sound?

I, personally, always feel a pang of disappointment when I hear a concept described in terms the meaning of which changes depending on context. How long will "new" continue to mean what we all think it means while still referring to concertinas made in (or just before) the first decade of the 21st century? And since we're trying to move away from biology and genetics, are you sure "breed" is a wise choice?

FWIW, I just did a search on the word "hybrid" in this forum, and (if one can trust the search engine, which is not at all a certainty), the first use of the word was three years ago by Rich Morse, here, in the 2nd paragraph.

Rich, do you know whether it was you who first used the word in the context of concertinas or did you get the usage from someone else?

#42 Richard Morse

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 12:28 PM

Seems to me that we've been referring to "our" (royally speaking) concertinas as hybrids (as a class) years before my post on concertina.net - though perhaps not many years? Before that I know that at least the word "hybrid" was descriptive of boxes that had incorporated both accordion and concertina technology well before we were making them. I wonder what Andrew Norman classed (or had a name for) his type of boxes as?

-- Rich --

#43 Bob Tedrow

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 06:52 PM

I wonder what Andrew Norman classed (or had a name for) his type of boxes as?

-- Rich --


Strikes me it was merely "concertina"

Bob

#44 Daniel Hersh

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 10:33 PM

I think that may be correct--when there are very few makers there's less of a need for a generic name. After all, there's no name for the Jackie/Rochelle design approach yet, but with only one maker who uses it that hasn't seemed to cause any problems (at least until this thread!)

Daniel

I wonder what Andrew Norman classed (or had a name for) his type of boxes as?

-- Rich --

Strikes me it was merely "concertina"

Bob



#45 Dan Worrall

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 12:42 AM

Since Jim asked, I'll say I had meant the term 'hybrid' to mean an anglo built by taking a handful or two of individually framed Italian reeds and affixing them to a nice (non-wooden) action to make them sound as truly (anglo- or English-) concertina-like as possible.

It would be more conclusive and accurate to say that you had meant the term "hybrid" to mean....

Rich, I think Dan is quite articulate and I believe that he meant what he said, not what you wish he had said.[/indent]

Then it appears that he's intentionally excluding our English concertinas and the Tedrow duets. I wonder why?

-- Rich --

Gee, I haven't checked in this thread for a day or two...it is growing like Johnson grass here in Texas after a summer rain!

I tried to include, not exclude, English system concertinas, Rich, not that it is any big deal (see the words 'anglo- or English concertina-like', above. I left out the duets, ok. DIdn't really mean to, just trying to be economical in text. I didn't think everyone would be getting to this level of minutia! But then, it can be fun, I suppose.

Theo asked about the two 'big' Chemnitzer histories that I mentioned. They are
1) Thomas Leary's very nice 2005 (or so) history of Chemnitzer playing in the German communities of the midwest...it is cited in my 'Anglos in the US' article in the Concertina Library. Has a great CD with very early recordings of the big box players. I think I have mentioned it before in earlier threads.
2) Vern Rippley's wonderful 'History of the Chemnitzer Concertina', published last year by St Olaf U press...you can Google it. Bob Tedrow made me aware of it, and it is a gem. I have been trading emails with the author, and plan to discuss further with him what he and others in the midwest know about early producion of concertinas in Germany (there seems to be an appreciable amount of knowledge on that topic with them), with an eye to firming up my (and perhaps our) understanding of the German producers who got the worldwide concertina craze going in the mid19th century.




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