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Anglo, English, Duet Subforums?


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#19 BruceB

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Posted 22 January 2004 - 09:05 PM

Hi Everyone,
I like the idea of anglo, english & duet subforums, with a fourth general interest subforum for everything else. This makes a lot more sense to me than the current subforums. While I'm interested in concertinas as a group, most of my questions relate specifically to one system. For example, lately I've been working on Irish Trad on english concertina. I'd enjoy discussing details of how to do various articulations/embellishments on an English. I've been working with the Frank Edgley book/cd, The Anglo Concertina Handbook for Irish Trad, and it's clear that the embellishments often need to be done differently. It would be fun to discuss this with other english concertina players as this is completely system specific. Sure, I could bring it up in the learning subforum, but I think it would work better if discussed under an English Concertina subforum. It would be less likely to mutate into something else....say, a discussion of how to do a roll on an anglo.
Most questions about playing are system specific, so I say organize the site according to system.

This isn't a major issue with me, no matter how the forum is organized I'd still check all the subforums out.
bruce boysen

#20 JimLucas

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 02:57 AM

I like the idea of anglo, english & duet subforums, with a fourth general interest subforum for everything else. This makes a lot more sense to me than the current subforums.
[...]
Most questions about playing are system specific, so I say organize the site according to system.

Most questions about playing may be system specific, but not most questions in general. Division of some discussions into anglo, English, and duet does make a lot of sense, but eliminating the current divisions does not.

Most questions about history or construction & repair are not system specific. Neither are many events, and besides, many folks who play only one system are interested in listening to other systems. And buyers and sellers probably want to get the word out to everybody; after all, someone who plays only anglo may still have an acquaintance who would be interested in an English, but who doesn't read Concertina.net. Some teaching/learning issues are also general, while others are not. As for music, though some pieces or arrangements may be system-specific, most tunes are not. Neither is this sub-Forum.

So what sort of issues are system specific? As Bruce said, playing, which I interpret as "learning"... i.e., learning how to play. Fingerings and ornamentation on each system. Some (but not all?) aspects of holding the instrument and manipulating the bellows and buttons. Use of the air button (mainly on the anglo). Maybe those who favor the by-system division can come up with more, but how many outside the area of playing/learning?

#21 Samantha

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 07:20 AM

I'm adding a reply to prove I'm interested, but I'm afraid I'm sitting on the fence on this one. I'm tilting slightly towards system-specific fora, but can see that in the "Teaching/learning" forum you can point out that your thread is system-specific and ask that players of other systems do not blow the thread off course ...
By the way, I'm one of those who checks out the recent conversations here, using the "View New Posts" button - I understand (from a post Jim made way back) that I may be missing the odd post this way, but for me it is the most efficient way to review what's been going on here since my last visit.
Samantha

#22 Dave Weinstein

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 09:10 AM

Even within a system (especially Anglo) play issues have to be hedged with the specifics of the instrument.

I like things as they are, but I have at least some level of interest in all of the systems.

--Dave

#23 Kurt Braun

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 09:34 AM

So what sort of issues are system specific?  As Bruce said, playing, which I interpret as "learning"... i.e., learning how to play.  Fingerings and ornamentation on each system.  Some (but not all?) aspects of holding the instrument and manipulating the bellows and buttons.  Use of the air button (mainly on the anglo).  Maybe those who favor the by-system division can come up with more, but how many outside the area of playing/learning?

It isn't just learning. The three instruments have different traditions and literatures, even different musical goals. The meat and potatoes of alglos seems to be (surmising from this forum) Irish reels, gigs, contra dancing and some folk songs)? I'm less familiar with English, in part because of the current structure of the fora on this site, but seems to be single line melodic, some times very sophisticated music? So it can include much of the above but also some things from the classical flute and violin literature -- even jazz?

Finally, there is the Duet -- my interest. It can handle folk music quite well. It can contribute to reels and so on, but that isn't its meat and potatoes. Since it can accompany itself to some degree, it is arguably a more solo than ensemble instrument. Players spend time working on arrangements, adapting music written for other instruments and so on. I use mine to play standards from the 30s - 50s, some simple classical piano and guitar stuff, hymn and carols, folk songs and novelty stuff. It could be that I'm weird or something and no one else is doing this sort of music. But, if there are tina players that I can connect with in terms of the music I make -- not just to learn with, but to share experiences and ideas -- it is far greater more likely to be a duet player that an English or Anglo player.

I also like another point -- aren't you anglo and English players just a little tired of all of this irrelevant duet noise? If there was a seperate forum you could still get to it, but it would be interrupting the other discussions.

By the way -- I would not argue for supplanting the current fora structure but rather to merely supplement it with 1 to 3 additional fora.

I wonder if Robert Gaskins would be interested in a duet forum on his site?

#24 BruceB

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 10:06 AM

This is how I personally would like to see the discussion forum organized. Six subforums; here they are.......

1. Anglo

2. English

3. Duet

4. Construction-Repair-History

5. Buy and Sell

6. Pissing Contests


bruce boysen.....just kidding about number 6, which should actually be called General Interest.

#25 dbowers

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 10:11 AM

Athough I'm an Anglo player, I support the idea of a duet forum. From the little I've seen and read about duets, there would appear to be a lot of subjects that would delight duet players and bore me to death.

I've no problem with mixing English and Anglo, but others may have strong feelings in that regard.

#26 Stephen Mills

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 10:14 AM

Although not opposed to subforums, I would make the following points.

(1) As a multi-instrumentalist, as are very many on this site, each instrument, even very different (or especially, very different) ones end up improving my understanding and abilities on my other instruments. Why not our near cousins?

(2) As an anglo player, I constantly wonder how other Anglo players articulate a particular phrase, given the constraints of our peculiar instrument. But I also wonder how an English player would articulate it, freed from those constraints. The thoughtful English player might be making a more purely musical choice, rather than the fastest or easiest one. (One would hope the thoughtful Anglo player would also go for the most musical choice). I think most of us also find guidance from fiddle players and other instrumentalists.

(3) Many players are constantly thinking about adding a different concertina type to our collection and are consequently interested in these postings.

(4) None of the above points preclude specialized subforums. Those interested can peruse any forum they want, just as now I use my scroll function to jump over debates and diatribes I have no interest in. I would just prefer not to jump forums; others would prefer to keep their primary interests distilled.

#27 JimLucas

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 10:54 AM

...now I use my scroll function to jump over debates and diatribes I have no interest in.

I found that much easier in the old Forum (remember that?), since it wasn't necessary to scroll past the entire text of a post to get to the next one, and sequencing didn't have to be broken to introduce a new "Subject".

But that's just nostalgia. It was talked out long ago, and it's not going to change back. :)

#28 JimLucas

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 11:01 AM

....just kidding about number 6, which should actually be called General Interest.

Why just "General Interest"? How about "Major Interest" and "Private Interst"? And maybe "Ergonomics" could be re-named to "Corporal Interest". ;)

#29 JimLucas

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 11:26 AM

...aren't you anglo and English players just a little tired of all of this irrelevant duet noise?

That's tongue in cheek, right? Aside from details about the different keyboard layouts, I think any musical principle that's valid for the duets can also be applied to the English or anglo, or both. All this anglo stuff about bellows direction (and consequent use of the air button), on the other hand....

Athough I'm an Anglo player, I support the idea of a duet forum. From the little I've seen and read about duets, there would appear to be a lot of subjects that would delight duet players and bore me to death.

Based on relative numbers of both posts and Topics, I think it would be trivial for the anglo players to skip the duet-specific stuff. Not so the other way around.

#30 JimLucas

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 01:21 PM

It isn't just learning.  The three instruments have different traditions and literatures, even different musical goals.

I disagree. Different traditions in some respects, but hardly a single unified tradition for any of anglo, English, or duet, while the different kinds of duet don't share equally a single set of traditions. And no type is music -- Morris, Irish, song accompaniment, jazz, classical, etc. -- is retricted to only one of the types of concertina, either. As for concertina "literatures", they're virtually nonexistent in comparison with more common instruments (guitar, piano, flute, violin, guitar, even trumpet). I'm not sure what you mean by "musical goals", but like "traditions", I'd be surprised that any particular "musical goal" would be unique to a particular kind of concertina, or vice versa.

The meat and potatoes of anglos seems to be (surmising from this forum) Irish reels, jigs, contra dancing and some folk songs)?

The most common styles of anglo playing for Morris dancing and song accompaniment are heavily chordal, and so closer to common duet styles than to the style usually associated with Irish dance music. Different players of contra dance music may use either of those styles or something in between. Scan Tester's and Fred Kilroy's distinct styles have also received attention here, plus anglo players were mentioned in connection with ragtime.

All of those "traditions", with the exception vamping chords against simultaneous melody (common for Morris), are not only possible on English, but (in my experience) fairly common. They are also all possible -- and done -- on duets.

It's the different duets, interestingly enough, which seem more closely associated with particular musical "traditions" than the anglo or English: Maccann for stage performance (arrangements of classical pieces and popular songs), Crane/Triumph for the Salvation Army (especially hymn arrangements), and the Hayden (a relative newcomer) for dance music (contra and Morris in the US). But even these associations are far from exclusive.

And I believe that all of what I've said above has been reflected in the Forum posts here on Concertina.net.

#31 JoachimDelp

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 02:27 PM

Does somebody need my opinion ? I am afraid not.
But me too, I want to shpow my interest.

Among all the observations made here, the most shocking one is Kurt's restyricted view of Anglo playing.

I am still a beginner (18 months) and am learning and doing on my Anglo Iriush tunes, chorded Music near to Blues and Jazz, Folk. O.k. I do not play Bach on my anglo, also I simply have not tried it.

Precisely today listening Kurt's Music, I got interested in the Duet and maybe that one of these fdays a shall buy one, because there possibilities I shall not find as easy on my anglo.

But I insist Anglo Players are doing mcuh more than many are thinking and occasionally it is a special challenge to do it on this small instrument.

About the Forum. I like it as it is.

But I understand that particularly Duet Players might prefer to have their own Forum. And why not ? Peace and Glory ! As along as I am allowed to enter in their world !, which is mine too.
So they have what they wish and others can do what they want too, visiting their page withot "knocking the door and asking for a special permit."

Kind regards
Joachim Delp

#32 Kurt Braun

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 09:05 PM

Among all the observations made here, the most shocking one is Kurt's restyricted view of Anglo playing.

Mea Culpa. I really don't know much about concertinas generally. I don't have more than 2 or three total lifetime hours playing with other concertina players. Mostly I just surmise things about concertinas from here, a limited number of CDs and the books and tutors I've run across. It has been years, but I donít recall seeing Anglo Concertina listed in the Downbeat Magazine instrument categories. ;)

Objectively, I don't think there are enough people to support a Duet forum. I do feel it is a sufficiently different creature from the others and find the original post of this thread to be an excellent question and supportable. Maybe it is my inexperience with all of the different varieties of the concertina that prevents me from seeing the merits of the objections.




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