17 replies to this topic

[JimLucas]

....anyway it doesn't matter much because the necessary bending at the wrist and of the fingers..not necessary in the higher octave(s).... will likely be responsible for difference in speed performance anyway.

"Likely"? Oh, never mind!

Theoretically, I suppose there could be a difference, but at performance speed -- even on fast Irish reels -- it's insignificant. If it exists at all, it's less than the impedance of the action (button, lever, spring), so it has no effect.

Furthermore it is technically not possible to achieve the same speed in the lowest as highest octave anyway due to mechanism and reed action so your previous statement regarding same performance is not conceivable for that reason either...
this however requires of course that the speed actually exceeds the limiting values...

And with a good instrument, playing speed doesn't exceed those limiting values. The reeds, even the lowest baritone reeds, on a good Æola, Albion, etc. respond more quickly than either the player's fingers or the action.

the problem... described does not exist for me...

I don't believe it.

This is just one of many things about my playing -- "problems" I don't experience, which you insist I must; techniques I use comfortably and as a matter of course -- which you have, over time, stated that you "don't believe". I'm pleased to report that my experience does not appear to be dependent upon your belief.

...you likely are mistaken or deceiving yourself

And I don't believe that. I'm not even going to go into my usual diatribe about the fact that you are, in effect, saying that I'm either not competent to observe my own experiences (and the performance of others) or lying, or both. I don't really care.

Demonstrating that you can play "just as fast..." maybe can be witnessed by someone....?

...maybe I can get one of the squeezers tomorrow's birthday party to be a witness.

Do so, but it better be testified by local public notary....

As far as I know, (s)he has no competence to judge concertina playing. Won't be at the party, anyway. Unfortunately, neither will the Swedish parliamentarian (whose name escapes me at the moment) who plays concertina.

....But stay "tuned".

[Lester Bailey]

I have found that finger strength affects the speed at which I am able to play. I have used a guitarist's finger exerciser to increase the strength. After a number of weeks of usage my playing speed increased significantly. I also found my little finger was better able to cope with long playing sessions.

Pre-emptive strike for Goran - No I have no scientific proof of this it is all purely subjective, and yes it may well only work for me, and I am in no way involved in the manufature, sale or benefit in any other way from the sale of such items

[Rhomylly]

Hmm, maybe if I got myself one of those guitar player finger exercisers I could use my little finger in the first place. Right now it's definitely too weak and possibly too short to do much but help grip the hand strap.

Lester, you're speaking about Anglo playing, yes?

Right now, "Merrily Kiss the Quaker" which is played solely (by me, at least) by the middle and ring finger of my left hand would almost certainly sound much crisper with increased strength.

I thought I had pretty strong fingers from typing (average speed: 70 words per minute) 8-10 hours a day, but maybe they could use some help...

Actually it's my forearm muscles that get tired after about 45 minutes of playing.

[Lester Bailey]

Lester, you're speaking about Anglo playing, yes?

Rhomylly

Go and wash your mouth out I play a proper concertina an English concertina.

I wish I could speel or proff read then I would not need to edit my posts quite so often.

Edited by Lester Bailey, 16 January 2004 - 03:22 PM.

[Rhomylly]

So that means you properly hold your pinky away from the instrument and sip slowly?

Would it help if I said I have ambitions to learn the proper English concertina as well as the clearly degenerate Anglo?

[Lester Bailey]

So that means you properly hold your pinky away from the instrument and sip slowly? 

Would it help if I said I have ambitions to learn the proper English concertina as well as the clearly degenerate Anglo?

I'll let you off then. And by the way I am a melodeon player as well, so I should not be the one to throwing stones in this glass house.

[Lester Bailey]

I deleted all this because it was just a copy of my previous post. May be I should throw the computer away and get an Anglo.

Edited by Lester Bailey, 16 January 2004 - 04:38 PM.

[Rhomylly]

LOL!

So the guitarist hand strengthener thingy really makes a difference then? And what do you consider a "long session"?

(getting nervous about surviving Noel Hill School 8 months in advance)

[Dave Prebble]

And what do you consider a "long session"?

Hi Rhomylly,

Eight months is a pretty fair session I should say

Dave

[Daniel Bradbury]

Hello Rhomylly,

I would guess that the "weakness" you perceive is actually that related to "finger strength". While untrained in medicine, I believe the fingers are controlled by muscles in the forearms through attached tendons/ligaments. So yes, anything to strengthen the muscles could enhance speed. Typing is a wonderful exercise for concertina playing, but there is much less resistance to the keyboard than the concertina.

My other comment would be not to sweat surviving Noel's class. You will play more that you imagine, but will be so inspired that it will not matter! His classes are remarkable, and the man himself is one of the most gracious people I have ever met!

Dan

BTW, if you are going to the Midwest NHICS, then perhaps I will see you there!

[Lester Bailey]

LOL!

So the guitarist hand strengthener thingy really makes a difference then?

Well it did for me, this is the item I used

And what do you consider a "long session"?

Regularily play in 3 to 4 hour sessions, admittedly not constantly but for the bulk of the time. During the summer that will include 1 1/2 hours of almost constant Morris tunes outside so loud as well.

More edits for bad speeling

Edited by Lester Bailey, 17 January 2004 - 05:49 AM.

[JimLucas]

...getting nervous about surviving Noel Hill School...

Don't worry. You'll be too busy to notice the pain until after it's over.

I remember a weekend where did took a beginning class in rapper (a kind of English "sword" dance, but Rhomylly knows that), but then got drafted into the advanced class because they felt an inexperienced person was better than a hole in the ring. So over the weekend I spent about 8 hours holding this blade of spring steel bent into a U-shape, with my attention entirely on the dancing. Afterward, though, my upper body ached painfully for most of a week.

Now you have some idea what to look forward to.

[Dave Prebble]

So over the weekend I spent about 8 hours holding this blade of spring steel (= Rapper sword) bent into a U-shape, with my attention entirely on the dancing. Afterward, though, my upper body ached painfully for most of a week.

Hi Jim,

Sorry to hear of your dilemma. This is clearly un-ergonomic
Can you describe the handle design and how you gripped the instrument.... a video would perhaps be more instructive?

Dave

[Rhomylly]

Daniel, yes I am going to the midwest school!

Jim, I've been to intensive dance camps -- and start stressing months in advance about surviving them, too! But once I got there, I was so busy absorbing everything I didn't really pay attention to how much pain I was in...

Lester, that's exactly the thingy I plan to buy!

[goran rahm]

Jim:"Theoretically, I suppose there could be a difference, but at performance speed -- even on fast Irish reels -- it's insignificant. If it exists at all, it's less than the impedance of the action (button, lever, spring), so it has no effect."

Goran:You are as always regarding yourself and your performance Jim as the rule for everything. When Joe said that playing would be faster in the upper part than the lower this probably was not referring only to the playing of Jim Lucas!

The resources for playing speed will be greater
1) in the upper part of the keyboard because mechanical circumstances all working in the same direction favour it
2) with the hand in a more relaxed mean position, wrist in slightly extended position and fingers stretched or just lightly bent

What YOU personally means, believes or says you are doing is not that interesting.
If you got a report from some dozen(s) players having tried it out it would be of greater interest...

QUOTE (Goran)
Furthermore it is technically not possible to achieve the same speed in the lowest as highest octave anyway due to mechanism and reed action so your previous statement regarding same performance is not conceivable for that reason either...
this however requires of course that the speed actually exceeds the limiting values...

Jim:"And with a good instrument, playing speed doesn't exceed those limiting values. The reeds, even the lowest baritone reeds, on a good Æola, Albion, etc. respond more quickly than either the player's fingers or the action.

Goran:Not correct.... I would say that your observance seems peculiar Jim...

QUOTE (Jim)
the problem... described does not exist for me...

Goran:I don't believe it.

Jim:"This is just one of many things about my playing -- "problems" I don't experience, which you insist I must; techniques I use comfortably and as a matter of course -- which you have, over time, stated that you "don't believe". I'm pleased to report that my experience does not appear to be dependent upon your belief."

Goran:The best guess I have is that you are fooling yourself...

QUOTE
...you likely are mistaken or deceiving yourself

Jim:"And I don't believe that. I'm not even going to go into my usual diatribe about the fact that you are, in effect, saying that I'm either not competent to observe my own experiences (and the performance of others) or lying, or both. I don't really care."

Goran: Why then do you object?? I suggest that you have it publicly demostrated though that
1) you (and others) can play as fast in the position you have described before for reaching the lowest buttons as at the top of the keyboard
2) you (and others) can play as fast on a baritone in the lowest octave as the highest

If I understood you right the above is what you say you do...?

Goran Rahm

[goran rahm]

Lester:"I have found that finger strength affects the speed at which I am able to play. I have used a guitarist's finger exerciser to increase the strength. After a number of weeks of usage my playing speed increased significantly. I also found my little finger was better able to cope with long playing sessions.

Pre-emptive strike for Goran - No I have no scientific proof of this it is all purely subjective, and yes it may well only work for me, and I am in no way involved in the manufature, sale or benefit in any other way from the sale of such items "

Goran:We discussed this at length long ago Lester. Keep in mind now like then that your own perception of "increased strength" is not an unambiguous matter.
Secondly the relation between *possible* increase of strength and your playing speed is not that easily evaluated either.....not for yourself...not for someone else...
"Scientific" or "subjective" ...in both cases the observation(s) are so vague that sadly enough it is very hard to *know* anything what is going on!
Again: I do NOT question your impression as such and of course this is something positive for you...WHAT the explanation for it is is the tricky matter.
It is long ago we had the discussion before. Can you today tell
1) how long have you used the exerciser
2) for how long 'sessions' and how frequent
3) have you increased the resistance to the max and when did you do that?
4) have you measured your
- maximal contraction power before you started with the device and now
- the endurance for repeated contractions before and now
5) have you measured your "playing speed" before and now

Goran Rahm

[JimLucas]

You are as always regarding yourself and your performance Jim as the rule for everything. When Joe said that playing would be faster in the upper part than the lower this probably was not referring only to the playing of Jim Lucas!

And I didn't say it was. Once again, Göran, you are misrepresenting what others have said. Joe isn't arguing with me, you are.

I said:

I haven't met any competent players of the English who have difficulty playing tunes "up to speed" on a responsive instrument.

I further said:

...there are numerous other concertina players of my acquaintance whose playing is just as fast in the lower button range as in the upper.

You said:

...it is technically not possible to achieve the same speed in the lowest as highest octave...

To which I responded:

Theoretically, I suppose there could be a difference, but at performance speed -- even on fast Irish reels -- it's insignificant.

The only speed that matters is speed while playing music, and I claim that a skilled concertina player can play quickly enough in even the lowest register to do ornamented fast Irish reels or Baroque violin pieces at proper speed. I myself can certainly do so, and can play some Irish reels at speeds which good fiddlers consider too fast. And I'm far from the world's best concertina player; there are many others who can do better than I.

I don't claim that "anyone can do it", but I do suspect that there may be many who can't yet, but who could learn to do so, with the right sort of practice..

[goran rahm]

Moving the button pattern up on the treble would help the english player reach speed.
Joe

QUOTE (Göran)
You are as always regarding yourself and your performance Jim as the rule for everything. When Joe said that playing would be faster in the upper part than the lower this probably was not referring only to the playing of Jim Lucas!

Jim:"And I didn't say it was. Once again, Göran, you are misrepresenting what others have said. Joe isn't arguing with me, you are."

Goran:Nonsense! You replied before to Joe that this above did not include YOU...
But true: Joe has not argued with YOU..only YOU with him..see any difference?

I said (Jim):
QUOTE
I haven't met any competent players of the English who have difficulty playing tunes "up to speed" on a responsive instrument.

I further said(Jim):
QUOTE
...there are numerous other concertina players of my acquaintance whose playing is just as fast in the lower button range as in the upper.

Goran:Possibly correct so far.... but this naturally says nothing about the true matter which you ought to understand...so you are just obstinate, searching an excuse for a meaningless debate, fight, or excuse for 'saying something' whatever...

You said:
QUOTE (Goran)
...it is technically not possible to achieve the same speed in the lowest as highest octave...

To which I responded:
QUOTE (Jim)
Theoretically, I suppose there could be a difference, but at performance speed -- even on fast Irish reels -- it's insignificant.

Goran: Who's performance ?? The one of JL of course!?? Everything else is "theoretical"...?

Jim:"The only speed that matters is speed while playing music, and I claim that a skilled concertina player can play quickly enough in even the lowest register to do ornamented fast Irish reels or Baroque violin pieces at proper speed. I myself can certainly do so, and can play some Irish reels at speeds which good fiddlers consider too fast."

Goran: "I myself can certainly do so"...and you are not referring to yourself?????

Does not matter....you can not *play as fast*! (this was the original issue..now you suddenly are into "Irish reels or Baroque violin...)..unless you are a very *slow* player both in the top and the lower part...:-)
The prerequisites for this statement of course are that YOU do play as YOU have described by holding your (standard treble ) concertina with a grip between your thumb and little finger, bend (extend)your wrist back and bend your fingers to reach the lowest notes. (This is the meaning of what you said...find the original text if you like)

Have you revised your opinion on the 'technical' difference between lowest and highest octave too??...:-) You do have some baritones...have a go...!
And don't play your reels...just make some trills with two fingers that is more compareable...
Well you can play your reels on a treble and a baritone of course for a comparison....Speed it up...otherwise you may not notice the difference and just
get back saying triumphantly: 'There is no difference, not with my playing!!'......

Goran Rahm