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Holding A Crane Duet While Standing


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#19 ragtimer

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 09:26 PM

All comments welcome (besides "Don't expect me to buy your used tinas!") -- Mike K.

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#20 Hooves

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 06:27 PM

I need to stand to sing so I'm going to have to learn to play my Crane duet (55 keys) standing up when using it for accompaniment. After a few days of finding my way round the keys I've begun to focus on the issue of what angle to hold the instrument at. I see that extra straps are an option but that's not my initial inclination.

A song doesn't last long and I suppose I can develop the muscles to hold it horizontally (i.e. 90 degrees at the elbow) but there is a lot of downward pull with an instrument of this weight. Holding it at 45 degrees doesn't seem much better and it puts the concertina right in front of your chin. Holding it at 120 degrees is the most comfortable but seems to restrict arm movement and also seems a little precarious should I relax my thumbs.
Richard



I wonder what those Salvation Army troups did?

http://www.concertin...images/salv.htm

Its hard for me to see in the photos if they have straps on their boxes or not.

#21 ragtimer

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 07:52 PM

I wonder what those Salvation Army troups did?

http://www.concertin...images/salv.htm

Its hard for me to see in the photos if they have straps on their boxes or not.

In most of the photos, the players are seated, so maybe resting one or both ends on the thighs.

In the standing photo(s), I can't seee any "visible means of support" besides the hands, but very narrow straps could be there, as you said.

Are any of these bands still active in the UK? Been a LONG time since I've seen a Salvation Army brass band in the USA. --Mike K.

#22 JimLucas

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Posted 12 September 2007 - 01:00 AM

I wonder what those Salvation Army troups did?
http://www.concertin...images/salv.htm
Its hard for me to see in the photos if they have straps on their boxes or not.

The only one of those photos in which they actually appear to be playing (or at least simulating playing) is the first, where they're standing in marching formation. With the photo enlarged, the woman second from the viewer's right in the front row does indeed seem to have a strap/string. What's interesting is that it runs from her left shoulder diagonally across her chest to the right end of her instrument, thus supporting only the one end.

None of the others appear to have any such support, and even that one could be just some sort of sash which is really behind the concertina (though I suspect it really is a support). I infer this lack not only from my inability to see support lines, but also from the ways in which they're holding the instruments. That's especially true of the fellow at the back (not the bass drummer, but the fellow who looks like a bandleader ;)).

#23 Hooves

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Posted 12 September 2007 - 05:59 PM

I wonder what those Salvation Army troups did?
http://www.concertin...images/salv.htm
Its hard for me to see in the photos if they have straps on their boxes or not.

The only one of those photos in which they actually appear to be playing (or at least simulating playing) is the first, where they're standing in marching formation. With the photo enlarged, the woman second from the viewer's right in the front row does indeed seem to have a strap/string. What's interesting is that it runs from her left shoulder diagonally across her chest to the right end of her instrument, thus supporting only the one end.



Yes, I realized only 1 photo shows them standing, I didn't want to just take a photo from the web site and post it, so to give credit to the web page author I included a link to the whole page.

If we had additional photos we might get a better idea.

#24 ragtimer

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Posted 12 September 2007 - 09:40 PM

The only one of those photos in which they actually appear to be playing (or at least simulating playing) is the first, where they're standing in marching formation. With the photo enlarged, the woman second from the viewer's right in the front row does indeed seem to have a strap/string. What's interesting is that it runs from her left shoulder diagonally across her chest to the right end of her instrument, thus supporting only the one end.

A diagonal strap like that would not only support the right end, but pretty much anchor it horizontally and keep it from being squeezed. This would be like sitting and resting the right end on your thigh, and doing all the bellows work with the left hand. Not a bad thing, jsut something to consider when trying to figure out how these Army folks played.

In the standing situation, the left hand would also have to hold up its share of the weight, but the right hand would be relieved -- again, much like the lap situation. (There's quite a thread currently on various ways to play sitting, including a poll). --Mike K.

#25 Kurt Braun

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 08:21 AM

If we had additional photos we might get a better idea.



There is a picture here: http://www.scraggy.net/tina/ There is no strap.

I used to play a 55 key marching in parades, again no straps. I could send a picture if you like. :( :rolleyes:

Kurt

#26 ragtimer

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 11:13 AM

If we had additional photos we might get a better idea.

There is a picture here: http://www.scraggy.net/tina/ There is no strap.
I used to play a 55 key marching in parades, again no straps. I could send a picture if you like. :( :rolleyes:
Kurt

That's a very nice web site, Kurt -- thanks! I donwloaded all 5 MP3 files, to serve as inspiration in my ongoing process with my Hayden Duet.

Because my PC has noisy fans, I prefer to record to tape first, then digitize it into my SOundBlaster Live card. Still looking for a way to convert WAV to MP3 -- tho that's another thread.
--Mike K.

#27 wes williams

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 05:08 PM

Just by coincidence, look at Leo's recent posting. That's probably an 81 button Maccann being played, like Peter mentioned.

Mike: For simple WAV to MP3 try Switch. Its free. You could also try Audacity, which is a full audio editor that many people here use.

Edited by wes williams, 21 September 2007 - 05:15 PM.


#28 Hooves

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Posted 25 September 2007 - 02:39 PM

If we had additional photos we might get a better idea.



There is a picture here: http://www.scraggy.net/tina/ There is no strap.

I used to play a 55 key marching in parades, again no straps. I could send a picture if you like. :( :rolleyes:

Kurt



yes Ive seen that picture of Mr. Crabb, I think I even posted a link to it in another thread. Ive been playing mine on the knee, but I admit I would like to work more on playing standing as I intend to use it on some open mic performances, and though I could sit down, would rather stand.

I do have a German 20 key anglo which is a breeze to play standing up, its so light it feels like its going to float away (which in my case might be a good thing).

No need for more pictures.

#29 ragtimer

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Posted 29 September 2007 - 09:44 PM

Mike: For simple WAV to MP3 try Switch. Its free. You could also try Audacity, which is a full audio editor that many people here use.

I just did download the Switch, and it seems to work great!
Also nice to see Sourceforge is doing WIndows programs, not jsut Linux (tho I am the author of a Linux music editing program that's up there).
Thanks very much for the lead. --Mike K.

#30 m3838

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 12:50 PM

I experimented with another idea.
Here's the drawing. Later I'll try to post some real photos.
The criss-cross on the back is to prevent from slipping off the shoulders.

#31 Hooves

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 02:58 PM

I experimented with another idea.
Here's the drawing. Later I'll try to post some real photos.
The criss-cross on the back is to prevent from slipping off the shoulders.



so it lifts and supports?...

#32 m3838

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 04:16 PM

I experimented with another idea.
Here's the drawing. Later I'll try to post some real photos.
The criss-cross on the back is to prevent from slipping off the shoulders.



so it lifts and supports?...


I'm not sure what you mean.
It neither lifts nor supports, it suspends.
It can be perfectly suspended by only two hookups and one string. but it will go around the neck and eventually pressure from the string will cut your head off. So I thought about other alternatives and came up with Accordion-style suspension. It will rub bellows' corner on your belly. For Duet and Anglo it's not a problem, just push the instrument away.But for the English...
And it feels like sitting and resting bellows on my knee still gives me much more control, unless I'm about to use pinkey rest. But I'm about to unscrew those rests for good. The only situation when my suspension may be used is when you absolutely have to walk and play. But for marching bands of sorts I'd recommend to make a good use of pinkey rests. I just don't see any other sulution.
Unless...
You are going to use infamous Goram Rahm's wooden handle. But I don't know if that will critically limit the wrist movement.

#33 m3838

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 05:04 PM

I experimented with another idea.
Here's the drawing. Later I'll try to post some real photos.
The criss-cross on the back is to prevent from slipping off the shoulders.



so it lifts and supports?...


I'm not sure what you mean.
It neither lifts nor supports, it suspends.
It can be perfectly suspended by only two hookups and one string. but it will go around the neck and eventually pressure from the string will cut your head off. So I thought about other alternatives and came up with Accordion-style suspension. It will rub bellows' corner on your belly. For Duet and Anglo it's not a problem, just push the instrument away.But for the English...
And it feels like sitting and resting bellows on my knee still gives me much more control, unless I'm about to use pinkey rest. But I'm about to unscrew those rests for good. The only situation when my suspension may be used is when you absolutely have to walk and play. But for marching bands of sorts I'd recommend to make a good use of pinkey rests. I just don't see any other sulution.
Unless...
You are going to use infamous Goram Rahm's wooden handle. But I don't know if that will critically limit the wrist movement.



Or bracketts like this will allow wrist movements, crreate support for the instrument and give a bit more bellows control. They should be made of metal and lined with some leather or foam.
Huh?

#34 Dirge

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Posted 04 October 2007 - 01:35 AM

The short of it is surely that we've seen lots of evidence that a pro duet player expected to be able to cope without additional aids, and we should all be able to do it too.

Nevertheless controlling the bellows on a biggish duet when you've 'turned the corner' and are trying to compress them again is proving a sod for me, and it's really irritating making a hash of normally competent pieces time after time; I have been promising myself that I will do 10 minutes practice a day standing to crack it. However, experiments so far have been so excruciating that I come up with any excuse to avoid starting the discipline and sit down again to prove to myself that I CAN play the thing...(it's a good thing I showed a bit more resolve when I first picked up a duet)

I quite like the idea of a single strap from the right hand end and round your right shoulder only, though, it's the only arrangement suggested that avoids complicating the bellows movement. Easy enough to put on too.

#35 m3838

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Posted 04 October 2007 - 11:42 AM

I quite like the idea of a single strap from the right hand end and round your right shoulder only, though, it's the only arrangement suggested that avoids complicating the bellows movement. Easy enough to put on too.



I tried this at home - it slips off my shoulders. However, One strap going from concertina's left end over the left shoulder, crossing the back and under right urmpit into and underneath right concertina end - superb results! Easy to put in, on and off, centers Concertina's right end in the middle of stomack(belly, spare tire, 6 pack), leaves bellows free from rubing and bellows movements are not complicated at all. Instrument is super secure, steady.
I'll make some photos of this too. My camera battery was down.

#36 Hooves

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Posted 04 October 2007 - 01:03 PM

I quite like the idea of a single strap from the right hand end and round your right shoulder only, though, it's the only arrangement suggested that avoids complicating the bellows movement. Easy enough to put on too.



I tried this at home - it slips off my shoulders. However, One strap going from concertina's left end over the left shoulder, crossing the back and under right urmpit into and underneath right concertina end - superb results! Easy to put in, on and off, centers Concertina's right end in the middle of stomack(belly, spare tire, 6 pack), leaves bellows free from rubing and bellows movements are not complicated at all. Instrument is super secure, steady.
I'll make some photos of this too. My camera battery was down.



That sounds good, a lot like the way you run a guitar strap if I'm reading this correctly.




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