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Lachenal Anglos On Ebay Sep. 2006


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#37 DavidFR

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 01:40 PM

I guess that as 'Squeezora' was in possession of the instrument at the time of the discussions she should know with certainty whether it had a veneer or not.

Paul,

Second quote was from Judy. Sorry to have screwed that up. Both indicate that a veneer was used. I was just wondering what kind and if it was modified, as some other posters have indicated did occur. Only looking to satisfy my curiosity!

-David

#38 squeezora

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 05:22 AM

Today was the day that I finally figured out that if I continued to scroll down in the discussion forum I could read more current replies (yes, I am technologically "disadvantaged".) So it is with great fascination that I read the lengthy discussion on the $1625 Mahogany versus Rosewood-ended concertina since I am the one that bought it. It was quite the scary venture for me since I am, indeed, a relative beginner who had gone in search of an instrument with real "concertina" reeds while I "wait out" the two year list for a Kensington. The instrument arrived from Juliette Daum in France. A reed had popped out, possibly in shipping, which I was able to take care of. However, there are still three problematic buttons on the far right side that I am trying to troubleshoot. Are there any questions that you would like to ask me that might put an end to your Mahogany vs Rosewood debate? Unfortunately I don't know much about woods. However, I do think that it's been re-stained because the wear areas are the same color as the rest of the ends. It also appears to have and eighth inch veneer.




Here is a copy of the only email I received from Judy after she received the concertina:

"I just wanted to thank you for the wonderful CD
that you sent with the concertina. I am also
happy with the instrument. Did you notice the
lively debate about it on Concertina.net? I had
to replace a loose reed and blow on three
others and now all are playing. Best of luck
with your music. Judy"

About the wood on the ends. I noticed that all the comments on the wood being Mahogany issued from U.K. members.

To answer Judies statement, "However, I do think that it's been re-stained because the wear areas are the same color as the rest of the ends.".

Why would this fact indicate restained wood? If the finish is worn off and the color remains the same, that indicates that the wood is not stained! Which was indeed the fact in this case. The finish was clear or nearly clear French Polish and when it wore off down to the Rosewood verneer, it remained the same color as the Rosewood. Amazing! There was a very small amount of "Vernis égalisateur" applied to freshen up the finish.

In the photos I have marked the Mahogany with a green/gray dot so that you can tell the difference. In fact this is a good way to learn the difference in appearance between Rosewood and Mahogany. You can see the wood under the verneer is light coloured and there are no signs of staining. For myself, I don't care what you experts think, but I am concerned that your careless thoughts might hurt Judy, the buyers feelings and others who know it is Rosewood. Remember in Monty Pythons "Holy Grail" when they come upon the Castle occupied by the French. Remember what the French said! I say that to you@!

Somewhere In the thread above it is mentioned that Lachenal employed people to fake finishes on the cheap instruments. This is one of the SILLYEST comments I have ever read on the C.net. But I know that some silly boys do have wild imaginations and I laughed a lot thinking of the great artists who got their start sitting in a corner of Lachenal's shop painting Rosewood patterns onto the Mahogany to deceive the customers and save Tupence in the pursuit of their devious scheme. You see, there is no offering of 'faux" finishes in any of Lachenals price lists and so is this yet another example of "nasty foreigners" (that immigrant scoundrel Belgian, French, Swiss, or whatever) comming to our noble kingdom and taking advantage of our naive and childlike innocence by selling us fake Rosewood concertinas?

Then there were posts by people who couldn't really see........ what they were claiming to know all about. So I'm going to post some photos that might help. Perhaps these same people can speak up and admit their mistake or haste to claim knowledge with little evidence!!!!!!!! Yet another innocent victim sent to the gallows "humor".

My only concern when posting was to protect the "ïnnocent buyer" from misleading statements that cast a negative shadow on the instrument. I think some of those people posting did a disservice to others with their claimed knowledge and expertise.

The wood on the ends is Rosewood. It is not stained. There is no sign that it was ever any other way. You can see the lighter wood, that is Mahogany, underneath in the fretwork when viewed from the sides. You can see the grain of the Rosewood from the end around the edges and you can see where it ends at the Mahogany. For those of you who do not know much about woods, I assure you that it is nearly impossible to end the staining exactly at the junction of the two woods. To do so would be very complicated and require so much effort that it would be a very silly thing to attempt to do.

Next is the assumption that Rosewood was so exclusive a wood that they would immitate it in this manner. Rosewood was very abundant in those times and even today it could be considered easy to find when the size of a concertina is so small. They made, and still do make, knife handles, carpenters tools, kitchen utensils, and so on from Rosewood. Some of the grain was very swirly and exotic and some was more straight grained plainer variety. There is no question in my mind that the verneers were bought from a supplyer already glued up to the Mahogany and then selected and cut out by Lachenal. Or, perhaps, the ends were supplied already cut out by a supplyer to Lachenal. In any case why some, not all, of you are willing to make statements that are misleading and negative is a mystery to me.

I hope you will not be so willing to do this to others in the future although I do understand that PeterT's post was provocative and I was more than a little shocked when I read it as I thought it was 'over the top" in trying to boost interest in my sale.

I am making another post concerning this thread and it's origin.

regards,
Juliette

#39 PeterT

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 06:33 AM

I hope you will not be so willing to do this to others in the future although I do understand that PeterT's post was provocative and I was more than a little shocked when I read it as I thought it was 'over the top" in trying to boost interest in my sale.

To all who have responded to my original posting.

Picking up on Juliette's very comprehensive posting, I would like to state the following:

Juliette had no prior knowledge that I was making this posting, and subsequently mailed me to indicate that she was unhappy with the way in which I had worded it, and, had she known about it, would not have approved. What I was attempting to do, in fact, was highlight that the instrument was for sale.

I have apologised, to Juliette, for the distress which my posting has caused her, in addition to the time and effort which she has put into having to defend a position into which she did not ask to be placed. So, I have to hold up my hand and accept that it's all my fault.

In addition, I should state that I have known the history of this instrument from circa 1989, when a friend of mine bought it from Hobgoblin Music (I was with him, when he bought it). I have absolute respect for Juliette's knowledge, integrity, and honesty. If Juliette says that the concertina has Rosewood ends, you can be 100% certain that is does.

To sum up, I agree with Juliette's comment that my posting was provocative. A lesson to us all; the way in which I made the posting enabled other members (who did not have the benefit of accurate knowledge) to make incorrect assumptions and question the seller's (Juliette) integrity. You can imagine how I feel about this, and how upsetting this has been for Juliette. She has mailed me several times on the subject.

I hope that we can close this topic, and move on.

Regards,
Peter.

#40 Greg Jowaisas

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 06:58 AM

Perhaps we are talking about model and style rather than actual rosewood.

I have been working on the restoration of over a dozen Lachenal anglos and a dozen Lachenal englishes.
Here are some observations:

Of the four 20b "rosewood" Lachenals with fancy fretwork, all the ends were a solid even grained and closed pore wood similar to a low grade walnut. The finish coat included a grain pattern that was stained/painted on to approximate rosewood. Only inspection of the unfinished interior of the ends or looking closely at places of finger wear revealed the "secret" of the rosewood ends. Lachenal must have had some workers who put on the finish that were very good at graining imitation.

I have one 20b dark ended Lachenal with simple fretwork. The ends are solid and the grain is much wilder than mahogany. Might be rosewood, but I'm not convinced.

#7924 is a 32b with baby's cry and whistle. The ends are highly figured and solid rosewood.

30b with simple fretwork and beautiful ends which appear to be rosewood but upon close inspection are grained and stained.

30b piccolo with gorgeous rosewood looking ends. Once again the inside grain does not match the outside, which on closer inspection does not appear to be a veneer, but rather an artful graining/staining job.

The Lachenal englishes I've restored vary in quality. Some have simple loops for pivots; some have the nicer boxed pivot. A few had solid rosewood ends. Many had the grain and stain finishes of varying quality.
Sometimes it was an obvious paint job. Sometimes I could not tell unless I took off the ends.

So, that is my experience. I'd love to hear what the people think who have been repairing for tens of years. The Normans and Dippers and Groffs and Leeses have seen dozens, perhaps hundreds of Lachenals of different quality.

I think the lesson I have learned is to look two or three times when someone says "rosewood".

Regards,

Greg


While I made no particular comment on the particular instrument in question (Juliette has a good point, in that she had the instrument in her hands and could give it close inspection) I'll stand by my above observations and repeat that in my experience many Lachenals (not all) had a finish that imitated rosewood.

As far as being one of the "silly boys" I can only claim to have spent the last three years intensely immersed into rehabilitating and reconditioning over three dozen concertinas, many of them by Lachenal. My comments were to share my personal experience; not to prove or disprove anyone else's claims.

I think the term "rosewood" has become a designation for any of the darker finish/wood Lachenals, particularly those that are mid-grade and higher and not obviously mahogany. Some are solid rosewood, some are veneered, and some, as I have personally observed, have undergone a finish treatment to imitate rosewood.

I'll take some time out to take some pictures to reinforce my observations and argument (I didn't know I was arguing) I suggest we can all make our respective points without name calling.

Btw I live in the USA.

Bon chance,

Greg

#41 Paul Read

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 08:11 AM

About the wood on the ends. I noticed that all the comments on the wood being Mahogany issued from U.K. members.

In the photos I have marked the Mahogany with a green/gray dot so that you can tell the difference. In fact this is a good way to learn the difference in appearance between Rosewood and Mahogany. You can see the wood under the verneer is light coloured and there are no signs of staining. For myself, I don't care what you experts think, but I am concerned that your careless thoughts might hurt Judy, the buyers feelings and others who know it is Rosewood. Remember in Monty Pythons "Holy Grail" when they come upon the Castle occupied by the French. Remember what the French said! I say that to you@!

Somewhere In the thread above it is mentioned that Lachenal employed people to fake finishes on the cheap instruments. This is one of the SILLYEST comments I have ever read on the C.net. But I know that some silly boys do have wild imaginations and I laughed a lot thinking of the great artists who got their start sitting in a corner of Lachenal's shop painting Rosewood patterns onto the Mahogany to deceive the customers and save Tupence in the pursuit of their devious scheme. You see, there is no offering of 'faux" finishes in any of Lachenals price lists and so is this yet another example of "nasty foreigners" (that immigrant scoundrel Belgian, French, Swiss, or whatever) comming to our noble kingdom and taking advantage of our naive and childlike innocence by selling us fake Rosewood concertinas?

Then there were posts by people who couldn't really see........ what they were claiming to know all about. So I'm going to post some photos that might help. Perhaps these same people can speak up and admit their mistake or haste to claim knowledge with little evidence!!!!!!!! Yet another innocent victim sent to the gallows "humor".

My only concern when posting was to protect the "ïnnocent buyer" from misleading statements that cast a negative shadow on the instrument. I think some of those people posting did a disservice to others with their claimed knowledge and expertise.

The wood on the ends is Rosewood. It is not stained. There is no sign that it was ever any other way. You can see the lighter wood, that is Mahogany, underneath in the fretwork when viewed from the sides. You can see the grain of the Rosewood from the end around the edges and you can see where it ends at the Mahogany. For those of you who do not know much about woods, I assure you that it is nearly impossible to end the staining exactly at the junction of the two woods. To do so would be very complicated and require so much effort that it would be a very silly thing to attempt to do.

Next is the assumption that Rosewood was so exclusive a wood that they would immitate it in this manner. Rosewood was very abundant in those times and even today it could be considered easy to find when the size of a concertina is so small. They made, and still do make, knife handles, carpenters tools, kitchen utensils, and so on from Rosewood. Some of the grain was very swirly and exotic and some was more straight grained plainer variety. There is no question in my mind that the verneers were bought from a supplyer already glued up to the Mahogany and then selected and cut out by Lachenal. Or, perhaps, the ends were supplied already cut out by a supplyer to Lachenal. In any case why some, not all, of you are willing to make statements that are misleading and negative is a mystery to me.

I hope you will not be so willing to do this to others in the future although I do understand that PeterT's post was provocative and I was more than a little shocked when I read it as I thought it was 'over the top" in trying to boost interest in my sale.

I am making another post concerning this thread and it's origin.

regards,
Juliette


I just checked my postings - no opinions on whether it was rosewood or mahogany, painted or veneered - thank goodness :)

I would echo most of Greg's posting. It may have saved a lot of debate if people had known that the seller was Juliette - a safe bet n'est-ce pas? <_< .

As far as what I did say, I'll stand by my comment that , when new, this would have been a cheaper model than the one it was originally compared with. If somebody asks, there is no problem with giving an opinion on that score. In fact I thought this was a forum............. :unsure: I guess my one discrepancy (in distinguishing the models) was to use use the common description of 'Mahogany-ended' for the cheap one and 'rosewood-ended' for the expensive one. I guess 'cheaper' quality and 'better quality' may be more suitable.

That being said, this instrument is still likely to be a nice instrument for a price at the lower end of a decent accordion-reeded instrument.

It does raise an interesting question though; we seem to have established that the cheaper models were sometimes made with a rosewood veneer. I believe that the better ones could also be either solid wood or veneer. In the veneer case, would the base material on the ends be mahogany or a better quality wood?

What did the French say? I guess I should watch more Monty Python.

Paul from Canada.

edited for typos

Edited by Paul Read, 12 October 2006 - 10:00 AM.


#42 Robin Harrison

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 08:58 AM

I read Greg's postings with interest...........I have two rosewood ( solid not veneer) anglos in my possession and so am always interested in their history,etc.
With his observation of some large number of Lachenals he said it seemed like some ends had been faux-finished to make them look like rosewood . I 've just checked both of mine and this is what I find.The hand rails ( hand rests) look like they are some mahagony type wood but have been treated with black stain or paint to make them look more like rosewood. I had never looked carefully at them and assumed they were a beautifully figured rosewood................not so,definitely paint .........but on cursory examination they sure look like rosewood.
If they do this to the hand rails, why not the end plates.
One for the silly boys, I reckon.
Regards Robin

#43 Greg Jowaisas

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 10:41 AM

I'd like to add that this should be an ongoing discussion and exploration. I claim no expertise outside of the observations of the concertinas that I have examined and I certainly can make a mistake.

I took a second look this morning at a beat up Lachenal english that I have been using for parts. Memory said that the ends looked stained to resemble rosewood. Some sanding revealed that they are most likely a rosewood veneer! I have a couple of other instruments that I think support my "grain enhancement" position. I have taken some pics of the above instrument and I'll take some pictures of the ones that I think support my observations. (As soon as I archive the vacation pics and free up some camera memory!)

As I said in my original post, I would love the input of the experts who have seen hundreds of concertinas.

Robin,
As far as the enhancement of your mahogany handrails, I think the finishers at the Lachenal factory were only trying to match the beautiful ends. No deception, just aesthetic liberty. Handrails of rosewood would add some unnecessary weight.

Regards,

Greg

#44 Daniel Hersh

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Posted 14 October 2006 - 12:59 PM

Some more recent Lachenal activity on eBay:

A metal-ended 30-button (unknown key) with rather worn bellows sold for $1721/£920.

A metal-ended 32-button G/D in nice shape from Chris Algar sold for $2900/£1550.

A mahogany ended 28-button C/G sold for $512. Unless I'm missing something, someone got a good deal on that one.

And still active are this 30-button in unknown key which I believe is a mahogany-ended Lachenal and this 26-button in C/G with problematic bellows from Chris Algar.

For the record, these concertinas achieved:

$2021/£1063

$1625/£855

£637

And still active are this 30-button in unknown key which I believe is a mahogany-ended Lachenal and ...

No sign of "steel reeds" marking on this one, so its probably brass reeded, which makes it much less desirable.

Perhaps so...but Chris Algar wound up buying it for $853/£460. The 26-button with the bad bellows that he was selling went for $463/£250.

Regarding the other issue in this thread, I'm personally going to start referring to wooden-ended Lachenals as "simple fretwork" or "complex fretwork" to avoid disputes about wood varieties. The whole thing reminds me of previous lively discussions about "bisonoric" vs. "diatonic" and "German" vs. "20-button German-made Anglo".

Daniel

#45 Paul Read

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Posted 14 October 2006 - 01:07 PM

[quote name='Daniel Hersh' date='Oct 14 2006, 01:59 PM' post='46594']

[/quote]No sign of "steel reeds" marking on this one, so its probably brass reeded, which makes it much less desirable.[/quote]
Perhaps so...but Chris Algar wound up buying it for $853/£460. The 26-button with the bad bellows that he was selling went for $463/£250.

Regarding the other issue in this thread, I'm personally going to start referring to wooden-ended Lachenals as "simple fretwork" or "complex fretwork" to avoid disputes about wood varieties. The whole thing reminds me of previous lively discussions about "bisonoric" vs. "diatonic" and "German" vs. "20-button German-made Anglo".

Daniel
[/quote]

A thirty button is always more saleable than a 26 button in my experience (i.e. this is what the majority of Irish players want). I suspect that Chris found out or was confident that this one had steel reeds. Restored, he'd get good money for it in Ireland.

#46 Paul Read

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 11:32 AM

For anyone who may have missed it, Stephen Chambers has presented an excellent summary related to the issue discussed here in this thread: http://www.concertin...p...opid=46687

Edited by Paul Read, 17 October 2006 - 11:34 AM.





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