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Harry Geuns C-system And Hayden Bandonions


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#55 danersen

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 12:12 AM

Hello Mike,
I'll try get back to this when I have more time, but a few comments at the moment.
I think that your proposed two-row layout will be problematic for you in minor keys and polyphonic music.
The stretch - even though it is horizontal rather than vertical - is a concern to which you might want to give further consideration.
Harry's hybrid is very easy to accommodate if you can play a CBA, and bellows management is similar to that of a bandonion or chemnitzer.
If your fingers are colliding on a CBA, your hand position or the angle of your wrist may need some attention.
Are you playing c-griff or b- griff?
I may have missed it, but the scope of your desired note range is an important factor.
Playing a Hayfen/Wicki layout is not at all like playing a piano accordion - in my experience.
Minor keys and non-natural keys can also be a challenge when playing a Wicki/Hayden layout - again, in my experience.
Be Well,
Dan

#56 danersen

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 12:18 AM

Hello Lloyd?,
Where are the Stark bandonions to which your make reference located?
Thanks,
Dan

Edited by danersen, 06 January 2011 - 12:26 AM.


#57 SqueezeCat

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 11:34 AM

I just had a look at the Elise Hayden concertina. It might be a good way for me to see if Hayden really works for me, but I'm concerned that a number of notes are missing from the layout. On the right hand it's missing G#1, D#2, and G#2. How would you play in the key of E for example? It's not like E is an especially exotic key.


I'd describe Concertina Connection's Elise Hayden Duet as a good starter instrument--good to get the gist of the Hayden system.

As such the instrument does have limitations, the 34 key scope perhaps being the most significant. Here's the middle of a thread discussing just this.

The "Hayden/Wicki" key signatures (played by just moving the hand position) available on the Elise are F, C, G, D. Yes, the key of E isn't especially exotic--but the Elise does give a good start with Hayden/Wicki. And, for those of us planning an upgrade to a 'high end' instrument (I've a W-W1 on order), the Elise is part of Concertina Connection's trade in programme.


BTW, here are some pics of a Stagi Hayden, recently sold on by a Concertina.net member. These are 46 key accordion reeded instruments and are available from a number of dealers (as well as used).

#58 SqueezeCat

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 11:44 AM

Hello Dan,

Where are the Stark bandonions to which your make reference located?


When I said:

Wim Wakker/Concertina Connection has revived the Hugo Stark Chromatiphone system for duet concertina.... And for the bandoneon inclined, there are certainly a few Stark Chromatiphone bandoneons about.

Harry Geuns has at least one in his collection.


Perhaps it would have been best to emphasise few. Or, maybe say at least a few. I've never seen one in person....


Lloyd

#59 Daniel Hersh

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 01:43 PM

I have considered the Hybrid and many other keyboard layouts. I don't like the look of the Hybrid and the fact that you push and pull with your arms instead of wrist and/or hand. The Hayden model would allow you to have your thumb outside the strap which would presumably give you the type of bellows control that you need to play tango.

I've never tried the Hayden....

Concertina Connection's Elise Hayden Duet is a good way to become familiar with the Hayden system, in a starter instrument. (Not a bandoneon... but, that's the point of this tread. :) )


I just had a look at the Elise Hayden concertina. It might be a good way for me to see if Hayden really works for me, but I'm concerned that a number of notes are missing from the layout. On the right hand it's missing G#1, D#2, and G#2. How would you play in the key of E for example? It's not like E is an especially exotic key.

Mike

You would transpose to another key, probably D or F, or you'd find another tune to play. I like my Elise very much, but it does have its limitations. The fact that the highest note is a high A has been a bigger problem than the lack of a G# for the tunes that I play. I've had to transpose a number of G tunes to F because the original tunes had a high B that's above the Elise's range.

#60 danersen

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 09:58 PM

Hello Daniel,
RE: You would transpose to another key
This rather defeats the purpose of a fully chromatic isomorphic (meaning an identical structure or form) keyboard, doesn't it?
I don't think I'd want to take on the task of transposing Brahms Hungarian dances, for example.
There are 21 of them - wonderful melodies - none of them particularly long in duration.
However those 21 short pieces are written in 13 different major and minor keys - seven minor and six major - among them F# minor and Bb.
The key in which the composer places a work also contributes to its distinctiveness and character.
This is an example of why a fully chromatic, isomorphic keyboard is so valuable and treasured by those who play genres that contain accidentals, semitones, and key changes.
You know where you are at all times and, additionally, the heavy lifting of polyphonic execution is done by the instrument rather than the player.
How much more of a struggle would it be to learn and play a violin if a given string had a different pitch when playing in first, second, or third position?
Just my two cents.
Be Well,
Dan

#61 danersen

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 10:16 PM

Hello Mike,
The Wicki (and by association, Hayden), Piguri, and Atzarin keyboard layout may appropriately be considered chromatic.
I am not certain that they can be considered fully chromatic, and more importantly, none are isomorphic (meaning an identical structure or form) keyboard.
Given your earlier observations, it may be important for your to seriously evaluate this so that you are not later frustrated or disappointed.
If transposition is not a matter of concern for you, then these characteristics are not critical.
But then you could simply play one of the more readily available keyboard layouts and transpose when needed.
I suggest that you enlarge some keyboard layouts to "life" size and print them and then "play" the music that you desire on the models for a few weeks, paying particular attention to the chords and the transit/traveling/crossover/crossunder sequences that are required for melodies and how easy it is to transit among between the I, IV, and V chords in both major and minor keys.
I've found it most effective if I punch holes in the button locations and affix the printed keyboard page to a rather stiff sponge or foam so I can feel an approximation of the "button".
Our brains work differently and looking at a layout might not be sufficient to determine what is most usable or comfortable for you.
Perhaps this will be useful, if not helpful, to you.
Be Well,
Dan

#62 Mike Maddux

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 01:08 AM

Hello Mike,
The Wicki (and by association, Hayden), Piguri, and Atzarin keyboard layout may appropriately be considered chromatic.
I am not certain that they can be considered fully chromatic, and more importantly, none are isomorphic (meaning an identical structure or form) keyboard.
Given your earlier observations, it may be important for your to seriously evaluate this so that you are not later frustrated or disappointed.
If transposition is not a matter of concern for you, then these characteristics are not critical.
But then you could simply play one of the more readily available keyboard layouts and transpose when needed.
I suggest that you enlarge some keyboard layouts to "life" size and print them and then "play" the music that you desire on the models for a few weeks, paying particular attention to the chords and the transit/traveling/crossover/crossunder sequences that are required for melodies and how easy it is to transit among between the I, IV, and V chords in both major and minor keys.
I've found it most effective if I punch holes in the button locations and affix the printed keyboard page to a rather stiff sponge or foam so I can feel an approximation of the "button".
Our brains work differently and looking at a layout might not be sufficient to determine what is most usable or comfortable for you.
Perhaps this will be useful, if not helpful, to you.
Be Well,
Dan


Dan,

Very helpful and thought-provoking comments, helpful and useful!

Question: When you say that the Peguri or Atzarin might not be "fully chromatic" I'm not sure what you mean. Peguri has all of the notes contained in its range. Atzarin does miss one note near the bottom (I'm just talking right hand for simplicity) and one note near the top of the range, but within that it has everything.

I agree that the Peguri is definitely not fully isomorphic, since it has two different coexisting arrangements, and I GUESS you could say the Atzarin isn't fully isomorphic in that you have to learn three, for example, major scales. But that's still a lot better than having to learn twelve major scales like I've already done on piano, and the Atzarin doesn't change its mind in middle of things. You play the same patterns in all octaves. Same as a three row CBA in that regard - requiring the learning of three patterns for each type of scale.

As you suggested, I actually have printed out patterns in "life size", and tried them out, and I need to try that with Hayden/Wicki. It helps, but you're never sure what it will be like in real life. For instance, how hard will it be to reach a note given that your hand is restrained by a strap.

I want to be able to play any piece in any key, and the easier to learn the better! Isomorphism would probably help - I did have a CBA for awhile and found it workable, especially because I could use my thumb. But what I don't like about accordion is that it strongly favors the right hand, allowing it free movement, while the left hand is given the task of keeping the air flowing. I like the more equal approach that concertinas and bandoneons follow.

I have a borrowed bandoneon of the traditional Argentine persuasion and I'm working with it. It's crazy! However, the patterns, once learned with much effort, do seem to fall naturally under the fingers. Of course that probably just means I haven't yet tried the patterns that are difficult on it. I imagine every approach favors some patterns over others, but none that I've encountered are more loco than the traditional Argentine bandoneon.

Anyway, I'm glad I joined this group. I'm an accordion player who wants to play bandoneon but I love all free reed instruments, especially the very portable ones! I have a close to complete collection of "Concertina and Squeezebox" magazine.

Mike

#63 JimLucas

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 02:36 PM

I don't like the look of the Hybrid and the fact that you push and pull with your arms instead of wrist and/or hand.

A side issue in this thread, but...

I play English, anglo, and duets (all of English construction), and I always use my arms to push and pull the bellows.

I use my wrists, hands, and fingers to control the positioning of the ends, so that my arms can do the work of moving those ends to extend and compress the bellows.



#64 Daniel Hersh

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 04:35 AM

Hello Daniel,
RE: You would transpose to another key
This rather defeats the purpose of a fully chromatic isomorphic (meaning an identical structure or form) keyboard, doesn't it?
I don't think I'd want to take on the task of transposing Brahms Hungarian dances, for example.
There are 21 of them - wonderful melodies - none of them particularly long in duration.
However those 21 short pieces are written in 13 different major and minor keys - seven minor and six major - among them F# minor and Bb.
The key in which the composer places a work also contributes to its distinctiveness and character.
This is an example of why a fully chromatic, isomorphic keyboard is so valuable and treasured by those who play genres that contain accidentals, semitones, and key changes.
You know where you are at all times and, additionally, the heavy lifting of polyphonic execution is done by the instrument rather than the player.
How much more of a struggle would it be to learn and play a violin if a given string had a different pitch when playing in first, second, or third position?
Just my two cents.
Be Well,
Dan

I was just describing my own experience with the instrument, with the kind of music I play (which is not highly chromatic). I don't know the Brahms Hungarian dances and don't have a personal interest in becoming familiar with them, so I won't comment further..




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