Jump to content


Photo

Harry Geuns C-system And Hayden Bandonions


  • Please log in to reply
63 replies to this topic

#37 m3838

m3838

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2628 posts

Posted 02 February 2010 - 12:27 AM

Will it have a register switch, or will both sets of reeds sound all the time? It would be nice to have have the option of a single-reed sound.

Any idea of the weight?

That's certainly an impressive range!

I think that I'd vote for a parallel layout too, though I've only had the opportunity to play a slant-layout Hayden so far.

Daniel



I guess I can answer some questions.
It will NOT have switch, Bandoneons are not into this things.
It will be rather heavy, having Zinc reed plates.
The tuning is going to be MH (Medium High), which is typical for Bandoneons.
And it probably will not go anywhere, given Chinese made body/bellows, mechanics and the price into $5000.
I'd think repeating success of C/B system chromatic Hybrid Bandoneon at $1000 is a better way. Aluminum accordion type reed plates, machine made reeds, finished and set by Harry. I am not going to rush and spend $5000 on an instrument, half made in China, cheap looking, with black celluloid finish.
Don't get me wrong, I like my Jackie, and it's look is fine with me. Buy if I have to spend $500 on it, I'd pass.

#38 Boney

Boney

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 685 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bellingham, WA

Posted 02 February 2010 - 01:05 PM

And it probably will not go anywhere, given Chinese made body/bellows, mechanics and the price into $5000.
I'd think repeating success of C/B system chromatic Hybrid Bandoneon at $1000 is a better way.

Actually, he said the mechanics would be his hand-made action. Just the body and bellows would be Chinese. Although I do agree with you, I'd rather have a fine wooden veneer finish, as opposed to celluloid. But he also wrote "We'll be able to make luxury models (for example with bird's eye maple finish) as well," so maybe that will be an extra cost option.

In any case, I'm interested! For an instrument of that range, especially with double reeds, $3000 is a price I'm willing to pay. I'll be in touch with Mr. Geuns about ordering one. I'll also have some thoughts on button size and spacing, after I do a bit more experimenting. Extrapolating from the pictures above, it seems he has laid out the buttons with the Hayden-specified 16mm between buttons horizontally, and 9mm between rows.

#39 oggie

oggie

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 19 posts

Posted 02 February 2010 - 02:10 PM

And it probably will not go anywhere, given Chinese made body/bellows, mechanics and the price into $5000.
I'd think repeating success of C/B system chromatic Hybrid Bandoneon at $1000 is a better way.

Actually, he said the mechanics would be his hand-made action. Just the body and bellows would be Chinese. Although I do agree with you, I'd rather have a fine wooden veneer finish, as opposed to celluloid. But he also wrote "We'll be able to make luxury models (for example with bird's eye maple finish) as well," so maybe that will be an extra cost option.

In any case, I'm interested! For an instrument of that range, especially with double reeds, $3000 is a price I'm willing to pay. I'll be in touch with Mr. Geuns about ordering one. I'll also have some thoughts on button size and spacing, after I do a bit more experimenting. Extrapolating from the pictures above, it seems he has laid out the buttons with the Hayden-specified 16mm between buttons horizontally, and 9mm between rows.


I suppose it's a question of whether you want a Bandoneon sound without the hassle of learning a new system. Coming to it from the world of anglos and melodeons I prefer the traditional system (with all it's frustrations, it's part of the fun) and at that price range you could buy one of the pre-war AA or ELA 132 or even 144 note boxes in good condition. I think that it also gives you a different range of dynamics than a c system or hayden box with the same notes in both directions.

Steve

#40 SqueezeCat

SqueezeCat

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 106 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle, WA, USA

Posted 02 February 2010 - 04:14 PM

I suppose it's a question of whether you want a Bandoneon sound without the hassle of learning a new system....

I think that it also gives you a different range of dynamics than a c system or hayden box with the same notes in both directions.


My view at this point is that certainly a large part of the bandonion 'sound' is a result of the playing technique--playing as the bellows move in a single direction (mostly on the draw)--and therefore breaking up the musical line into well defined phrases and sub-phrases.

If the instrument to be built has a 'traditional' type air valve that can easily be incorporated into playing technique, this style of 'breathy' playing of the bi-sonoric instrument can easily be emulated. With this thought in mind, I've asked Geuns to strongly consider including an air valve of this sort.


I have an Argentinian friend learning bi-sonoric bandonion now. From talking to her, at this point she both plays and thinks of the instrument as having two keyboards--one for draw and one for press. This isn't really how we think of and play the Anglo. It could be she's a 'just a learner'... but certainly on Anglo (and now on Hayden/Wicki) I'm 'just a learner' too!


Anyway, I think an air valve will be important to have.

#41 SqueezeCat

SqueezeCat

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 106 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle, WA, USA

Posted 02 February 2010 - 04:40 PM

And it probably will not go anywhere, given Chinese made body/bellows, mechanics and the price into $5000.
I'd think repeating success of C/B system chromatic Hybrid Bandoneon at $1000 is a better way.

Actually, he said the mechanics would be his hand-made action. Just the body and bellows would be Chinese. Although I do agree with you, I'd rather have a fine wooden veneer finish, as opposed to celluloid. But he also wrote "We'll be able to make luxury models (for example with bird's eye maple finish) as well," so maybe that will be an extra cost option.


I'll echo that my interest is in having a "luxury model" at the extra cost. I've already gone through the process of acquiring concertinas, slowly up the "food chain"... and am wary of repeating the same thing on the bandonion front.

m3838 may have a point--that a simpler "entry level" instrument may have a broader market. Someone would have to ask Geuns directly, but my reading of my email exchanges is that using the same mechanics for "intermediate" and "luxury" instruments is intended to help keep development costs down.

And we have to remember... that we don't know how the development and production costs for the luxury and starter hybrid c-system instrument have worked out.


In any case, I'm interested! For an instrument of that range, especially with double reeds, $3000 is a price I'm willing to pay. I'll be in touch with Mr. Geuns about ordering one. I'll also have some thoughts on button size and spacing, after I do a bit more experimenting. Extrapolating from the pictures above, it seems he has laid out the buttons with the Hayden-specified 16mm between buttons horizontally, and 9mm between rows.


Yes. Me too! :)

And, I'm willing to pay more for a "luxury" instrument.

Re button spacing, I think it would be worth asking about. An easy question would be to ask Harry about the dimensions of the drawings he's forwarded.

On keyboard angle--I've asked that he consider a parallel Wicki arrangement. I know you have a Wakker W-H1 with a Hayden 10deg slant. What are your thoughts on Wicki vs Hayden angling for an instrument like this?

#42 oggie

oggie

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 19 posts

Posted 02 February 2010 - 05:33 PM

My view at this point is that certainly a large part of the bandonion 'sound' is a result of the playing technique--playing as the bellows move in a single direction (mostly on the draw)--and therefore breaking up the musical line into well defined phrases and sub-phrases.

If the instrument to be built has a 'traditional' type air valve that can easily be incorporated into playing technique, this style of 'breathy' playing of the bi-sonoric instrument can easily be emulated. With this thought in mind, I've asked Geuns to strongly consider including an air valve of this sort.


I have an Argentinian friend learning bi-sonoric bandonion now. From talking to her, at this point she both plays and thinks of the instrument as having two keyboards--one for draw and one for press. This isn't really how we think of and play the Anglo. It could be she's a 'just a learner'... but certainly on Anglo (and now on Hayden/Wicki) I'm 'just a learner' too!


Anyway, I think an air valve will be important to have.


Interesting. Piazolla certainly played most of his solos on the draw but when playing backup would play on either draw or pull dependent where the best fingering of chords lay. I have also seen Piazolla solos played much more evenly by other players and without the need for the break for the great push to get room for the bellows to go out again.

I play morris, celtic and song accompaniment. Because of my background I play more akin to an anglo player than a traditional bandoneoniste so I learn the notes and then figure out the best way to play for air efficiency and chording. That's part of the challenge. So a "d" requiring a "G" chord is push on the third row, if you need a "D" chord then it's pull on the second row.

All good clean fun and no right or wrong.

Steve

#43 m3838

m3838

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2628 posts

Posted 02 February 2010 - 07:26 PM

And it probably will not go anywhere, given Chinese made body/bellows, mechanics and the price into $5000.
I'd think repeating success of C/B system chromatic Hybrid Bandoneon at $1000 is a better way.

Actually, he said the mechanics would be his hand-made action. Just the body and bellows would be Chinese. Although I do agree with you, I'd rather have a fine wooden veneer finish, as opposed to celluloid. But he also wrote "We'll be able to make luxury models (for example with bird's eye maple finish) as well," so maybe that will be an extra cost option.

In any case, I'm interested! For an instrument of that range, especially with double reeds, $3000 is a price I'm willing to pay. I'll be in touch with Mr. Geuns about ordering one. I'll also have some thoughts on button size and spacing, after I do a bit more experimenting. Extrapolating from the pictures above, it seems he has laid out the buttons with the Hayden-specified 16mm between buttons horizontally, and 9mm between rows.


I was in touch with him. Order less than 10-15 instruments will increase the price to $10000, party ordered in China will only make sense if there is 30 instrument in a party each ear.
Price of $3000 that you are willing to pay is $2000 short. Chinese bellows is something to be careful about.

#44 MatthewVanitas

MatthewVanitas

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 544 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Montreal, Quebec

Posted 27 April 2010 - 02:14 PM

Put me down in the category of folks interested in a accordion-reeded version if the price is right, as the price premium of zinc reeds puts it a bit out of my range. Having a nice booming Hayden box with tons of range is indeed an appealing thought, but 3000 Euro is a bit more than I can spend on an instrument I'm still dabbling with. But I'd definitely spend $1000-1500 on a decent-quality (even if the frame and bellows are Red Chinese) accordion-reeded box.

Harry's site appears to be down; everything okay, just tech problems?

#45 MatthewVanitas

MatthewVanitas

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 544 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Montreal, Quebec

Posted 02 May 2010 - 10:54 AM

Checked with Harry over email, turns out they're just having some server problems with the move, but still in business.

I'll check in with him and see what the current thoughts are on the Hayden bandoneon; if it's time to start getting orders together that might be worth a new thread in the main forum, and some similar threads on other interested music forums for free reeds, tango, etc.

#46 SqueezeCat

SqueezeCat

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 106 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle, WA, USA

Posted 02 May 2010 - 02:59 PM

Checked with Harry over email, turns out they're just having some server problems with the move, but still in business.

I'll check in with him and see what the current thoughts are on the Hayden bandoneon; if it's time to start getting orders together that might be worth a new thread in the main forum, and some similar threads on other interested music forums for free reeds, tango, etc.



I'm still interested.... could be a new thread is a useful idea....

#47 Mike Maddux

Mike Maddux

    New Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Austin, TX, USA

Posted 04 January 2011 - 12:14 PM

Any news on a Hayden/Wicki Bandoneon from Harry Geuns? I'm very interested and if there's a list of interested people, please add me to it!

Mike

#48 koeter

koeter

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 19 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Graz / Austria

Posted 04 January 2011 - 06:03 PM

[quote name='Mike Maddux' timestamp='1294161297' post='120403']
Any news on a Hayden/Wicki Bandoneon from Harry Geuns?

If one considers a Bandoneon -why only Hayden-Layout? I guess there are only few Hayden players for whom the Hayden-Bandoneon would be an easy task. As I play EC Id learn from new the Hayden Layout as well the Geuns hybrid C-System. And the Chinese Hybrid is on the market for under 1000 Euro which is also refundable when upgrading??? <_<

#49 Mike Maddux

Mike Maddux

    New Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Austin, TX, USA

Posted 05 January 2011 - 12:13 AM

I have considered the Hybrid and many other keyboard layouts. I don't like the look of the Hybrid and the fact that you push and pull with your arms instead of wrist and/or hand. The Hayden model would allow you to have your thumb outside the strap which would presumably give you the type of bellows control that you need to play tango.

I've never tried the Hayden, but it looks like it would be physically easier than the CBA system which is used in the Hybrid and also the other popular chromatic keyboard - the Peguri. I could easily be wrong about that. I'm coming from piano accordion and the Hayden seems to offer some similarities in finger motion to the piano keyboard. No thumb in use, but it seems like the fingers don't get in each other's way when playing scales, whereas they kind of do on the CBA system.

So the real answer is that I don't really know for sure! I'm also considering the Atzarin, but, like the Hayden, it doesn't exist yet...

Right now I'm taking lessons on the traditional Argentine system, but I'm finding it to be a steep learning curve to say the least.

Mike


If one considers a Bandoneon -why only Hayden-Layout? I guess there are only few Hayden players for whom the Hayden-Bandoneon would be an easy task. As I play EC Id learn from new the Hayden Layout as well the Geuns hybrid C-System. And the Chinese Hybrid is on the market for under 1000 Euro which is also refundable when upgrading??? <_<



#50 koeter

koeter

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 19 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Graz / Austria

Posted 05 January 2011 - 10:53 AM

[quote name[code]='Mike Maddux' timestamp='1294204420' post='120426']
[/code]I have considered the Hybrid and many other keyboard layouts.  I don't like the look of the Hybrid and the fact that you push and pull with your arms instead of wrist and/or hand.  The Hayden model would allow you to have your thumb outside the strap which would presumably give you the type of bellows control that you need to play tango.

I've never tried the Hayden, but it looks like it would be physically easier than the CBA system which is used in the Hybrid and also the other popular chromatic keyboard - the Peguri.  I could easily be wrong about that.  I'm coming from piano accordion and the Hayden seems to offer some similarities in finger motion to the piano keyboard.  No thumb in use, but it seems like the fingers don't get in each other's way when playing scales, whereas they kind of do on the CBA system.

So the real answer is that I don't really know for sure!  I'm also considering the Atzarin, but, like the Hayden, it doesn't exist yet...

Right now I'm taking lessons on the traditional Argentine system, but I'm finding it to be a steep learning curve to say the least.

Mike

[quote name='koeter' timestamp='1294182190' post='120412']

If one considers a Bandoneon -why only Hayden-Layout? I guess there are only few Hayden players for whom the Hayden-Bandoneon would be an easy task. As I play EC Id learn from new the Hayden Layout as well the Geuns hybrid C-System. And the Chinese Hybrid is on the market for under 1000 Euro which is also refundable when upgrading??? <img src='http://www.concertina.net/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dry.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='<_<' />
[/quote]
[/quote]
[hr]

I understand that the concertinists as myself are used to play the buttons upward instead of the more horizontal orientation in the accordions. What do you think about the following layout?

Attached Files



#51 SqueezeCat

SqueezeCat

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 106 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle, WA, USA

Posted 05 January 2011 - 02:46 PM

Any news on a Hayden/Wicki Bandoneon from Harry Geuns? I'm very interested and if there's a list of interested people, please add me to it!

Mike


Hello Mike,

Welcome to concertina.net.... And to the group of individuals interested in seeing a Hayden/Wicki bandoneon.

To add yourself to 'the list', is best to email Harry Geuns directly.

You can follow the course of the above thread, to see how things have been last left. There seem to be two proposed instruments under discussion: a 'student model' of the sort described at this link, and a 'professional model' of the sort described here--but with a Hayden/Wicki keyboard.

I seem to remember Geuns was looking for at least five interested parties to begin work on a Hayden/Wicki student model. (Wonder if we're at that threshold, yet?)


Lloyd

#52 SqueezeCat

SqueezeCat

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 106 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle, WA, USA

Posted 05 January 2011 - 02:57 PM

I have considered the Hybrid and many other keyboard layouts. I don't like the look of the Hybrid and the fact that you push and pull with your arms instead of wrist and/or hand. The Hayden model would allow you to have your thumb outside the strap which would presumably give you the type of bellows control that you need to play tango.

I've never tried the Hayden....


Concertina Connection's Elise Hayden Duet is a good way to become familiar with the Hayden system, in a starter instrument. (Not a bandoneon... but, that's the point of this tread. :) )

#53 SqueezeCat

SqueezeCat

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 106 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle, WA, USA

Posted 05 January 2011 - 03:08 PM

I understand that the concertinists as myself are used to play the buttons upward instead of the more horizontal orientation in the accordions. What do you think about the following layout?


Have you seen this thread?

Wim Wakker/Concertina Connection has revived the Hugo Stark Chromatiphone system for duet concertina.... And for the bandoneon inclined, there are certainly a few Stark Chromatiphone bandoneons about.

Harry Geuns has at least one in his collection.

#54 Mike Maddux

Mike Maddux

    New Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Austin, TX, USA

Posted 05 January 2011 - 04:37 PM

I have considered the Hybrid and many other keyboard layouts. I don't like the look of the Hybrid and the fact that you push and pull with your arms instead of wrist and/or hand. The Hayden model would allow you to have your thumb outside the strap which would presumably give you the type of bellows control that you need to play tango.

I've never tried the Hayden....


Concertina Connection's Elise Hayden Duet is a good way to become familiar with the Hayden system, in a starter instrument. (Not a bandoneon... but, that's the point of this tread. :) )


I just had a look at the Elise Hayden concertina. It might be a good way for me to see if Hayden really works for me, but I'm concerned that a number of notes are missing from the layout. On the right hand it's missing G#1, D#2, and G#2. How would you play in the key of E for example? It's not like E is an especially exotic key.

Mike




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users