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Harry Geuns C-system And Hayden Bandonions


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#1 JackWoehr

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 01:14 AM

Harry Geuns of Belgium has forwarded me news and images of C-System-layout Bandonions and a proposal for a Hayden/Wicky-layout Bandonion.

#2 Richard Morse

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 06:28 AM

Seems like it's going to be a pretty big box! BTW, your page shows a Marcus where you refer to Geuns.....

#3 JackWoehr

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 12:52 PM

Seems like it's going to be a pretty big box! BTW, your page shows a Marcus where you refer to Geuns.....


That's the diagram Harry Geuns sent me, but you're right, it appears to be identical to the one Marcus uses. Either I screwed up royally, or Harry is saying he's going to use a Marcus layout, or I don't know what. I guess I'll have to ask Harry.

#4 ragtimer

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 08:58 PM

Harry Geuns of Belgium has forwarded me news and images of C-System-layout Bandonions and a proposal for a Hayden/Wicky-layout Bandonion.


Good, someone else entering the Hayden market! As a "bandoneon", will it have more than one reed per note, and register switches? If so, Rich is right on about "a big box". My asbestos suit is at the cleeaners so I won't mention "wet tuning" :-)

Given that the layout might not be the correct or final one, I'd like to make a few comments. On the LH, I don't know if we need the low bass notes (but I'm sure we'd use them!). Would like a low D# as well as C# (oops, skip that, I was thinking of the RH side). Also still no A# to allow an F# Major chord. Might be nice to have an upper row to give high C and D.

RH maybe doesn't need so many duplicated accidentals, though here again if I got a chance to play it and re-learn some minor-key tunes, I might change my mind very quickly. Oops, I think it's missing the low D#, though the C# is more valuable for those fiddle tunes.
--Mike Knudsen

#5 m3838

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 09:47 PM

If you're talking about a bandoneon, it's a given it will have two voices octave tuned, plus may be some more.
Fiddle tunes are too, not too relevant for Bandoneon, as new players lean towards classical, as I see it.
As accidentals are concerned, it must have all that standard bandoneons have, not less and perhabs, not more. A LH must have low bass notes and high notes for chords. I'm not sure if Hayden will suffice, although perhabs octave tuned notes fit together better as chords than single reeds in a concertina.
Hayden Bandoneon may finally fulfill my unrealized dream - to play a bandoneon.
Or may be not.

#6 JackWoehr

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 12:35 PM

BTW, your page shows a Marcus where you refer to Geuns.....


I've removed the art until I can clarify whether:
  • Harry Geuns forwarded me the wrong art, or
  • He means that he wants to make a Hayden bandonion according to the Marcus layout.
Thanks for pointing this out ot me.

#7 inventor

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 07:09 AM

I wrote to Geuns about Hayden system concertinas a couple of months ago but had no reply. It is medium quality (i.e. well made action and bellows but using best quality accordion reeds) hexagonal single reeded concertinas that there seems to be a demand for; not the Bandoneon type of instrument.
Some 20 years ago Bastari offered to make Hayden System, Square, Double reeded instruments at a reasonable price; however these were not a commercial sucess.
The Standard Bandoneon (I think it's called Rio Systen) and Chemnitzer, are so well established in both Americas as no doubt Wicci found out a hundred years ago, that there is no demand for any other type.
The ones that I had made were about 8" square and went chromatically down to an F at bottom of Bass Clef (F# & Ab included) on the left hand side, and chromatically up to the e" on 3rd ledger above treble clef on the right hand side; the c#' was included at the lower end of the right hand but not the very usefull g,a,& b.
Bandoneons based on the Continental Chromatic system have been tryed before but you run into problems of width of keyboard, when going more than a couple of octaves on each side. "Accordions of London" have had a very good quality one for over 20 years which has never sold.
Inventor.

#8 JackWoehr

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 12:10 PM

Some 20 years ago Bastari offered to make Hayden System, Square, Double reeded instruments at a reasonable price; however these were not a commercial sucess.


I owned one of these Bastari double-reeds for a while; it had a better tone than the Stagi but still somewhat thin. I understand the appeal of a multireed Hayden Duet; if HD's were as common as accordions, I'd surely own at least one multireed.

Bob Tedrow's HD is single-reed but very punchy and reedy, it's a much more powerful sound than the Stagi, and perhaps ever more suitable for stage work than the old Bastari two-reed.

The "tragedy" is that these instruments are so rare that we don't have many practical choices. At this point I play Hayden Duet better than I play any other squeezebox, but I find myself playing three-row and club system button accordion on stage simply because I can pick up from time to time a nice-sounding, loud and warbly two-reed Hohner on eBay in either of these systems for under $200 and sell it back on eBay when I'm tired of it.

#9 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 12:55 PM

Bandoneons based on the Continental Chromatic system have been tryed before but you run into problems of width of keyboard, when going more than a couple of octaves on each side. "Accordions of London" have had a very good quality one for over 20 years which has never sold.

Brian,

Somebody should tell John Leslie to take it to Paris, that seems to be the commonest Bandonion layout there. They all play "French model" Continental Chromatic accordions, and some switch to Bandonions of the same system to play tango music. I've a lovely CD of Daniel Colin playing one of them with the Tango singer Jean Raphael, though Tangos in French take a bit of getting used to! :blink:

Mind you, in Paris you'll see electronic keyboards in Continental Chromatic system too, never mind Bandonions. :huh: :

Posted Image

Speaking of which, how about a Hayden system electronic keyboard?

Edited to add photo.

Edited by Stephen Chambers, 11 September 2006 - 11:37 PM.


#10 JackWoehr

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 12:28 PM

Harry Geuns had indeed sent me accidentally the wrong jpegs.

The correct diagram of the proposed Geuns Hayden/Wicky Bandoneon is now posted.

Note the kinky left side ... the buttons run top-to-bottom as some have proposed, rather than bottom-to-top as all Haydens constructed to date do.

#11 Spectacled Warbler

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 01:51 PM

This looks more than interesting.

Has Harry any vague idea of when he might produce this, if he does?

Regards

Joy

#12 JackWoehr

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 04:16 PM

This looks more than interesting.

Has Harry any vague idea of when he might produce this, if he does?


He says he wants to know what kind of interest there is in such an offering. If you'd
buy one at some price point, you should probably let him know.

#13 Spectacled Warbler

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 08:13 AM

Thanks Jack,

I've emailed him to register my interest.

Joy

#14 JackWoehr

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 03:00 PM

Harry also is not particularly picky about the button direction, he'd probably build it with the bass buttons running in the standard Hayden orientation if that's what people wanted.

But he should speak for himself! I'll try to remember to email him tonite to join this discussion.

#15 bandonion-maker

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 02:09 AM

Dear list members,

The left hand's keyboard direction for a new Hayden/Wicky lay out bandonion will depend on the demand.
We prefer a logical paralel left- and right hand keyboard in order to allowe identical fingering positions, just like we did with the Gabla Hybrid C-/B- system bandonion already ( check picture below ).

mini_Hybrid_front_view.JPG
(low priced version of the hybrid bandonion)
accordion type reeds

GH_b.e.m_f..JPG
(top model Gabla hybrid full range)
traditional long reed plates in zinc


If there is more interest from players who already play hayden concertina we'll produce the opposite keyboard direction for the left hand.

For us a minimum order of 10 instruments for each lay out is needed before starting a limited special production

Harry Geuns
Bandonion & Concertina Maker


Already first potential hayden wicky bandonion has listed up , 9 more to go , who's next ?

#16 JackWoehr

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Posted 13 August 2006 - 08:33 PM

If there is more interest from players who already play hayden concertina we'll produce the opposite keyboard direction for the left hand.


I'd be one of the "opposite direction" crowd.

BTW, (he edits in), is the layout you propose on the face in normal concertina style or up on the edge
like you are laying out your C-System hybrids?

Already first potential hayden wicky bandonion has listed up , 9 more to go , who's next ?


What's the proposed price? That's the deal maker/breaker for me.

Edited by JackWoehr, 14 August 2006 - 11:40 PM.


#17 inventor

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 06:56 AM

There are very good reasons for running the left hand side with the notes on each row running from left to right on the ascending whole tone scale.
1) When playing an accompaniment in the form of bass notes and chords, for major chords the little finger falls naturally on the root note of the chord an octave lower than the major chord which you are playing with the other 3 fingers. It is also possible (not quite so easy but comes with a little practice) to use the little finger under the root note of the minor chords. This facility makes it possible to play a walking bass entirely on the little finger leaving the other 3 stronger fingers to play all sorts of interesting things not only chords.
If you reverse the fingering you end up having to use the little finger unconveniently high on the higher notes, and using different strong fingers to play a bass part, which can break up the flow of the middle part.
Note: with the very good selection of bass notes proposed this becomes even more important than on a 46 button concertina.
2) The order of chords comes out in the same order as the Stradella Bass (the standard system used on the Piano-accordion, and Continental & British chromatic accordions). Though conveniently concertinered into zigzag form, with the relative minors on top of the major rather consecutive to it. This will give a bass system equivalent to far more than a 72 bass piano accordion in a much more compact space.
3) If the Hayden system is applied to an electronic piano or organ keyboard, the left hand keyboard runs straight into the right; and if an extra keyboard is provided for the thumbs to play (more easily) the equivalent of an organ pedal-board as you move to sharper or flatter keys the thumbs will move with the hands.

The only advantage that might arise from putting a mirror image on the left seems to be if you were playing both hands together an octave apart when the same fingers are used for the same notes. However it takes about a week to train yourself to do this using corresponding leftmost and rightmost fingers etc., and this is the way that all of the common duet concertina systems work, and of course the Piano and organ keyboards.

I have written an article for the ICA magazine where I have mentioned my discussions with Pat Robson the late celebrated Bandoneon player discussing just such an idea, and why I rejected it. If they decide not to publish it the article will appear on the WCCP website.

Inventor.

#18 JackWoehr

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 11:48 AM

3) If the Hayden system is applied to an electronic piano or organ keyboard, the left hand keyboard runs straight into the right; and if an extra keyboard is provided for the thumbs to play (more easily) the equivalent


That's really the reason I like it that way. On my little Stagi Hayden I play melodies that run from one side to the other, and with the buttons in the normal Hayden layout it is very natural to run down, say, d-c#-B-A crossing from one side to the other, it makes the rows feel as if they were joined, just extensions of one another.




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