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Questions About Wheatstone Aeola


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#19 duckln

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 11:09 AM

The concertina was on Ebay back in April of this year. It was was sold from
location Minneapolis St. Paul. On the old forum I brought up the S/M plate
and it's meaning.
I don't know how and if the 'old' forum can be accessed, but at the time it
did create a little stir.

Joe

#20 JimLucas

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 11:30 AM

The concertina was on Ebay back in April of this year. It was was sold from location Minneapolis St. Paul.  On the old forum I brought up the S/M plate and it's meaning.

...at the time it did create a little stir.

Sounds like the one I remembered, but the old Forum doesn't seem to be accessible anymore. And just to be certain, was that Bruce's instrument (pre-restoration), or a different one? I don't recall who got that one (could have been Concertina Connection), but if that one was from Minneapolis and Bruce's from New Zealand...?

Do you remember more than I do?

#21 goran rahm

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 11:48 AM

Jim:And was it a non-reveted action, or did Wim replace a Wheatstone riveted action with his own version? Maybe he would say? It would be nice to have before and after pictures to show the kind of restoration he does.

Goran: I'm a little but surprised also about the change of action since according to the number of the instrument it is expected that it had riveted action originally.
The lever/action model of Harry Geuns certainly is attractive though and a technical improvement compared to the common Wheatstone type... although IF the later is in good condition there should hardly be any difference in playing conditions either. Maybe it was worn in this case or maybe Geuns and Wakker just were curious to check the result....BTW....The 'fork' type of posts were used already by Rock Chidley on instruments with his own label.

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#22 BruceB

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 12:41 PM

Everyone,
This has turned out to be very interesting for me. If anyone figures out how to access the info from April, I'd like to see it.

If I seem overly generous in my praise of this instrument it's probably because it's not really in my nature to be calmly objective. I tend to get excited about things, and whenever I like something, I tend to like it a lot. Plus, I did just spend over three thousand USD for it. That's a lot of money for me. Not that I don't believe everything I wrote.

bruce boysen

#23 Clive Thorne

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 01:15 PM

I can play it in the room next to my wife and not wake her if I'm careful.

You're a lucky man; My wife wakes up the moment I draw air!! - and the cats leave the room before I even get that far!! Mind you - they've heard my playing!!

Clive

#24 yerpalal

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 02:24 PM

Hello All, I have a couple of Edeos one is a treble with the orrigional action the other is a TT with Wims action. Both are fully restored, tuned, padded, valved bushed etc. No contest I pick up the TT every time though I prefer the tone of the Treble. The trebles action will last another hundred years but I will have Wim replace it well before it wears out. The replacement action is a blast, as in the case of Edeos it allows for a lighter spring action and is a bit quieter, but its basic attraction is the feeling of smoothness. When the tenor in question came up on Wims site I inquired and he said the instrument would need a lot of work/time befor it was done, I suppose the action was replaced due to wear. AW

#25 allan atlas

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Posted 30 November 2003 - 09:45 AM

FOLKS: just three little notes to the thread:

(1) the mid-19th-century ledgers already show evidence of mixing and matching. . . . .there, what we call the "ends" are called "tops". . . . .and one occasionally sees an entry for a purchase in which the "pans" of one instrument are being matched with the "tops" of another. . . . . . to be sure, it's not an everyday event, but it does happen . . . . . .if memory serves me correctly, it might be that Regondi was involved in one of these entries (but my memory often does not serve me correctly)..............................

(2) i too have an instrument that made its way to New Zealand. . . . .purchased for me by a friend in an antique store in Christchurch some years back. . . . .an 1850s Wheatstone. . . . .the original purchaser was Lieut. R. Peel. . . . .surely the Robert Peel who was the son of the recently deceased (1851???) prime minister of that name. . . . . the son was in the navy. . . . .and we know, from naval records, that he travelled to New Zealand. . . . . .the instrument still has its original brass reeds tuned in meantone style. . . . . .with A flat a bit higher than G sharp. . . .and E flat a little higher than D sharp. . . . . .i enjoy using it in the "Prayer" from Molique's Six Characteristic Pieces, which, being in E major, places a lot of emphasis on G sharp and D sharp. . . . .depending on which way the melody is going, i play the higher or lower pitch. . . . . .i always tell the audience about the instrument in advance. . . . . . .so that they don't think I'm playing out of tune. . . . . .when we did it three weeks ago at NY's Met Mus of Art, a specialist in early 17th-c music (particularly Monteverdi) came up after the concert and said he really enjoyed it: "it twanged my ear". . . . . . . .

(3) will second Bruce's kind words about Wim. . . . . he just restored an 1868 Wheatstone for me. . . . .sounds absolutely wonderful. . . . . . allan

Edited by allan atlas, 30 November 2003 - 09:47 AM.


#26 goran rahm

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Posted 30 November 2003 - 11:55 AM

Al:"The replacement action is a blast, as in the case of Edeos it allows for a lighter spring action and is a bit quieter"

Goran:Since I have not tried the Geuns action I partly speak form theory but
it is in place to sort out the involved factors a bit. The needed spring force acting on the pads is a matter of keeping the pads closed and this is decided by the model
The button resistance ( force) becomes proportional to the force acting on the pads due to the leverage. Question: does Geuns use a different leverage?...otherwise it does not "allow lighter spring action"...
Since Edeophoes originally have not-riveted action the stability is depending on perfect bushing. Conditionally that bushings are perfect and you play 'straight' there should hardly be any significant difference in speed or smoothness but the
'Geuns' (or like I mentioned 'Chidley') action (as well as the riveted Wheatstone action) offers additional stability which of course gets more important with gradual wear.
When the instrument is "quieter" it often depends on less sound between button and end plate,button and lever, or button and action board and hardly on less sound from the lever mechanism.

Al: but its basic attraction is the feeling of smoothness.

Goran: A problem when comparing is that you hardly ever come in contact with
an old instrument in "original condition"

Al: I suppose the action was replaced due to wear. AW

Goran: Sounds likely...

Goran Rahm

#27 yerpalal

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Posted 30 November 2003 - 01:07 PM

Goran, Well I can only relate my impressions to the two instruments. Both are in Perfect working order and the replacement action is as was said, smoother and a*bit* quieter and with a lighter action. I have been told that the Lachenal action requires heavier springing so as to keep the lever arm and hook/post together, when they are sprung lighter they will tend to "clack". Either action is perfectly usable its possible that the Lachenal action would last longer than the Wheatstone type. But the rivited post action feels better. Most of us will never play enough to wear out either action type. These conversations always remind me of guitarists talking intently about string thicknesses. Its fun but always seems silly. AW

#28 Paul Read

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 12:49 PM

Some of the Wheatstones made in the '30s had non-riveted action. I suspect this was one example and concertina connection decided to replace it with their own.

#29 JimLucas

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 03:18 PM

Some of the Wheatstones made in the '30s had non-riveted action. I suspect this was one example and concertina connection decided to replace it with their own.

"I suspect"?!! Why doesn't somebody contact Wim and ask him?

(Why don't I do it, you ask? Good point. :) )

If the ends were 34127 and the reed pans 33402, we could assume the original action was the same as in 34126 and ask Göran. Alas, it's the other way around.

#30 BruceB

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 04:08 PM

Some of the Wheatstones made in the '30s had non-riveted action.  I suspect this was one example and concertina connection decided to replace it with their own.

"I suspect"?!! Why doesn't somebody contact Wim and ask him?

(Why don't I do it, you ask? Good point. :) )

If the ends were 34127 and the reed pans 33402, we could assume the original action was the same as in 34126 and ask Göran. Alas, it's the other way around.

I emailed Wim enough times about this instrument and would feel a bit uncomfortable bothering him yet again. Why doesn't someone who knows him do it.

Part of the attraction of this Aeola, for me, was that it had a replacement action, so whatever the reason was, I'm glad CC did it.

Wim did say that he's seen mismatched serial numbers several times before this example. He thinks it's highly unlikely that two separate concertinas (33402 & 34127) were made, both damaged, and then the undamaged parts used to make a single instrument. He thinks the mixup occured at Wheatstones; but as Jim said.....the serial numbers are TWO YEARS apart.

I'd never heard of '30's Wheatstones with non-riveted action. I thought it was post WW2 only?

bruce boysen

#31 JimLucas

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 04:19 PM

I emailed Wim enough times about this instrument and would feel a bit uncomfortable bothering him yet again. Why doesn't someone who knows him do it.

I just did. Assuming he responds, I'll let you all know what he says.

#32 Paul Read

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 09:48 PM

I had a 1935 one with non-riveted action. It played very well, you wouldn't know the difference.

#33 goran rahm

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 03:25 AM

Al:"I have been told that the Lachenal action requires heavier springing so as to keep the lever arm and hook/post together, when they are sprung lighter they will tend to "clack".

Goran:This likely is based on some misunderstandings.
There is no objective need for "heavier springing" to keep the lever steady in the hook. I have experienced with varying springs and to objectivize any 'getting loose' of the connection you have to reduce the spring force to unplayable (and in practise not used) levels.(some players probably have done it and manage all the same if playing 'very' softly...)
(*Possibly* the phenomenon might happen 'in real' in the low notes of Anglos but a common problem may be leaking on push if too sof springs are used)
There are several sources for noise in the mechanism..one ...(which is reduced by rivet connection (or s stabilizing 'saddle')) ...is the clattering by the guiding pin its hole which is more obvious when bushings are worn and with all-metal buttons (both factors making Lachenals more apt to clatter than Wheatstones (generally speaking)


QUOTE (JimLucas @ Dec 1 2003, 03:18 PM)
QUOTE (Paul Read @ Dec 1 2003, 12:49 PM)
Some of the Wheatstones made in the '30s had non-riveted action. I suspect this was one example and concertina connection decided to replace it with their own.

Goran:To my memory I have come across non-riveted Aeolas only on numbers above 36000 (1950s) but I have never tried to find out the exact border. These actual instruments (and belonging to nearby 'batches' I have met) certainly would have riveted action unless the customer for some strange reason ordered differently.

Jim:"If the ends were 34127 and the reed pans 33402, we could assume the original action was the same as in 34126 and ask Göran. Alas, it's the other way around.

Goran:See previous reply

Bruce:Wim did say that he's seen mismatched serial numbers several times before this example. He thinks it's highly unlikely that two separate concertinas (33402 & 34127) were made, both damaged, and then the undamaged parts used to make a single instrument. He thinks the mixup occured at Wheatstones;

Goran:Nope!....Wim likely is a bit mistaken here.What I described...making one instrument out of two 'wrecks' has been *very* common ...particularly 'round the World'....understandingly since the concertina makers/repairers used to be situated in England...AND also by the *makers* themselves when getting a 'wreck' for reconstruction.So "Wheatstones" could have done it.. intentionally... But by 'accident'?...I'd say only if blindfolded...(I've done it once myself but the instruments had very alike numbers....)
There also is the that SM label which seemingly somehow got 'astray' .....hardly by accident!


Goran Rahm
Goran Rahm

#34 JimLucas

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 04:28 AM

Wim has answered my email: "The action in this particular instrument was the Wheatstone hook type, which is even worse than Lachenal's."

The full text of his reply covers more than just the action of this particular instrument, or even actions in general, so I have posted it under a new Topic, "Riveted Action and Other Factors" in the "Instrument Construction & Repair" Forum.

Happy reading. :)

Edited by JimLucas, 02 December 2003 - 08:52 AM.


#35 goran rahm

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 12:56 PM

This one gets even more intriguing.... I have never come across a non riveted Wheatstone of this 'early' period but it would be interesting to know the distribution of the variants and if/when they appeared in parallell. As far as I remember I have possibly seen some sixsided 34xxx but Aeolas hardly before 35xxx anyway.
What bout you others?
The 33402 is the last of 7 14E instruments No:s 33395-33402 dated (last column) from sep -34 to march -35.
My sixsided 56 tenortreble 35235 dated 29/9-39 also has riveted action

Well...something may have been 'special' with 33402....it seems to have been finished -35 however and unless the original action had been replaced....
Anyway it makes Wims action understandable...that question is answered...

Goran Rahm

#36 Paul Read

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 03:45 PM

Mine was 33622. I didn't have any problem with it so it's interesting that Wim states that it's worse than Lachenal.




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