59 replies to this topic

[Charlotte]

When it comes to folk music the focus is, as far as I can see, on Irish/English. This may be a dumb question for which I deserve this years stupidity prize, but what about music from Scotland and Wales? How come tunes from these places are not as prominent? Perhaps they are and I have just not noticed? Or if they are not, why not?

Forgive me, I'm just a dane trying to learn....

Charlotte

[m3838]

"Forgive me, I'm just a dane trying to learn"

If you're a Dane, why don't you learn Danish tunes? And why Danish tunes are not prominent? I am actually worried that concertina leans towards Irish rather disproportionately. It becomes boring at times, especially if one wants to buy CDs with concertinas on them. Or Harmonicas. It's either Blues or pretty much nothing. Or it's Irish or make your own.
And what am I to do, if I'm not Irish, not even English, not even a white european of arian descent? A tutor? - Irish. A CD? - Irish. A session? - Irish.
I can't play Irish, even if it hits me over the forhead. I don't get it. Not in my blood, for God's sake!
Give us some Danish tunes, please!
One can agrue that concertina fits Irish music the best, Harmonica fits Blues. But could it be simply a bunch of energetic people, who made it happen?
Like balalaika in Russia, a dying instrument, which was resurrected and brought back to popularity by Fjodorov (?) or Irish music's popularity traced to Riverdance.
I know, I know, Jim, there are some examples. I'd like to have more, at least 1 out of 10, not 1 out of 50.

[Peter Brook]

I don't know anything about wales - sorry!

There is an absolutely massive folk scene in scotland, both in the lowland belt - edinburgh/glasgow and the highlands and islands. prominate instruments are the fiddle, flute, electric pianno, and button and pianno accordian - there's not that many concertinaists in comparison. there is lots of scottish music and scottish tune books - mainly for the fiddle.

Scottish music is much more in the mainstream - the first act in the opening of the scottish parliament was a traditional tune and song with Aly Bain one of the people involved. This is inspite of/or because of Jimmy Shand depending on who you speak to. There are also loads of accordian clubs.

Personally I feel that in these four countries we are not so bothered where a tune comes from as to how it sounds - lots of morris tunes came over from america with the original black minstrels from the 1850s onwards, there are also irish (Princess Royal), scottish (bluebells of scotland) and welsh (sweet jenny jones) tunes just within morris music.

I don't want to offend you by making a huge cultural faux par but have you heard or seen Ranarim (i think they are swedish). They sound fantastic and I'd love to learn some of their tunes. They all seem to have a great off rythym which I can't describe or tell you what the time signature is.

[Charlotte]

"Forgive me, I'm just a dane trying to learn"

If you're a Dane, why don't you learn Danish tunes? And why Danish tunes are not prominent? I am actually worried that concertina leans towards Irish rather disproportionately. It becomes boring at times, especially if one wants to buy CDs with concertinas on them. Or Harmonicas. It's either Blues or pretty much nothing. Or it's Irish or make your own.
And what am I to do, if I'm not Irish, not even English, not even a white european of arian descent? A tutor? - Irish. A CD? - Irish. A session? - Irish.
I can't play Irish, even if it hits me over the forhead. I don't get it. Not in my blood, for God's sake!
Give us some Danish tunes, please!
One can agrue that concertina fits Irish music the best, Harmonica fits Blues. But could it be simply a bunch of energetic people, who made it happen?
Like balalaika in Russia, a dying instrument, which was resurrected and brought back to popularity by Fjodorov (?) or Irish music's popularity traced to Riverdance.
I know, I know, Jim, there are some examples. I'd like to have more, at least 1 out of 10, not 1 out of 50.

Ah well, my problem is that I prefer Irish, Swedish, Russian, South american tunes (among others) to Danish ones. Unfortunately I have only heard few Danish traditional tunes. It is without doubt my fault for not being enquisitive enough about my own cultural background. Unfortunately we are not good at preserving our cultural heritage here in Denmark. I sense that in in the U.K. You are much more appreciative about your cultural background than we are and I envy you that. My judgement is based on what I have been able to find on the WWW (Unfortunately I have never been to the U.K, I don't know anyone from the U.K. and I have no idea about what people in general feel about their cultural background there). It is, however, easy to find sites where you can find and buy Irish traditional music. I can't find sites where I can find danish traditional music. I have no opinion about how you feel in other countries (but I'd like to know what you think).
Unfortunately, however, the few danish tunes I have heard just don't catch my imagination. It is really sad, but it is a fact... Perhaps, if I search more thoroughly I'll find some danish tunes that I'd like to learn to play.

My own interest in Irish music stems, not from Riverdance, but further back. My brother shared a flat with an Irish fellow some 30 years ago. He had some records with Irish music that made my ears grow to double their normal size.... I haven't got a clue as to why I have always wanted to play the concertina. It is not exactly the best known instrument here in Denmark. Well, at least now my neighbours know how it sounds like. In fact, yesterday I found that the young woman living upstairs began to stomp rather heavely across the floor. I immediately felt guilty and decided to try to play very quietly (She is a very tiny specimen of the human race). Then it hit me... perhaps she wasn't stomping, perhaps she was dancing!!! So I gave it another go!!!

Edited to correct the spelling mistakes that always seem to creep in no matter how much you try to proof-read the stuff you write

And now I had to edit the edited!!!

Edited by Charlotte, 31 March 2006 - 06:35 PM.

[John Wild]

I don't know anything about wales - sorry!

There is a marvellous book of Welsh tunes named BLODAUR GRUG. I leave the pronunciation to those who know better than I. It is a publication of the Welsh Folk Dance Society (Cymdeithas Ddawns Werin Cymru).

the information on my copy could have changed since this edition, but if you need to know, these are the details:-

Swyddog Cyhoeddusrwydd Cym deithas Ddawns Werin Cymru
The Welsh Folk Dance Society Publicity Officer

Mick Tems

1 Ty Clwta Cottages, Cross Inn, Pont-Y-Clun,
Morgannwg Ganol (Mid-Glamorgan)

Mick Tems with his wife Pat are/were key members of the band Callenig.

This book is a valuable part of my collection alongside northumbrian pipe tune books , Irish, Scots and French tune books among many others.

- John Wild

[Robert Gaskins]

For Scotland, you might want to look at Stuart Eydmann's PhD thesis,

The Life and Times of the Concertina:
the adoption and usage of a novel musical instrument with particular reference to Scotland

http://www.concertin.../life-and-times

This much-anticipated study is the first book-length account of the history and development of the concertina, in the context of the people who played it and their music. It is based on field work as well as historical research, and deals with the concertina in traditional music, art music, sacred music, band music, the music hall, and many forms of popular music—reflecting the richness, contradictions, and complexities of music and society over the more than 150 years since the invention of the concertina as the high-tech sensation of its day. Twelve chapters, bibliography of more than 400 items, over 90 figures and musical examples, 365 pages. Text of thesis for the Ph.D. degree, Open University, 1995. Supervisors: Dr Peter Cooke and Dr Richard Middleton.

The entire text with illustrations and examples is free on the web at the link above.

[PeterT]

...what about music from Scotland and Wales?

Hi Charlotte,

I can confirm what has already been written about Scottish music; I lived in Peterhead during 1991/4, and visited a few Accordian & Fiddle clubs, and a couple of Folk Clubs during this time. Scottish music was alive a well during this period. Also, I was always welcomed when I played English and other music on the concertina, and sang traditional English songs. I picked up a couple of nice pipe tunes while I was there.

Regarding Welsh music, I play a bit of this because of my "Welsh roots". Cadair Idris (Sweet Jenny Jones, as mentioned by Peter) etc. Some lovely tunes and airs here. The laugh of it is that whilst my mother was born/brought up in Wales, and had a Welsh family name (Griffiths) I have finally, this week, managed to trace back on this branch of my family tree to find that GreatGreatGrandfather Griffiths was born in Worcester (England!) in 1816 . His son was born in London, and my Grandfather in Bath. So, my "Welsh roots" are much further back than I had anticipated! I'm not about to ditch the music, or my Welsh middle name!

So to Ireland. Well, I'm definitely one sixteenth Irish (Armagh), so I'd better start learning some Irish tunes.

To pick up on your question; all three Celtic countries have very good traditional music, but I believe that the tradition has been strongest in Ireland, followed by Scotland, then Wales. The experts will correct me if I'm wrong, but in terms of continued traditions, Wales might even be behind England, in fourth place (I base this comment on strong regional English traditions, rather than the country as a whole). Note; the other Celtic countries also have strong traditions; from memory there are 7 Celtic countries in total.

Was the tradition always stronger in Ireland than Scotland or Wales, or did more musicians take their music to U.S.A., England, Australia etc. when they emigrated? Music and culture is the one thing that you can take with you. We Anglo-Saxons have not had to take our music anywhere for hundreds of years; maybe this is why most of the population seems indifferent towards it. Contrast this with immigrants from Africa, Caribbean, Asia; they bring their music and dances with them, for the rest of us to appreciate.

Prior to posting, I see that John Wild has mentioned Mick Tems; a really nice guy who played Anglo concertina, and melodeon. From what I've read, Mick is still recovering slowly from a very severe stroke suffered a few years ago.

Regards,
Peter.

[pmmack]

When it comes to folk music the focus is, as far as I can see, on Irish/English. This may be a dumb question for which I deserve this years stupidity prize, but what about music from Scotland and Wales? How come tunes from these places are not as prominent? Perhaps they are and I have just not noticed? Or if they are not, why not?

Forgive me, I'm just a dane trying to learn....

Charlotte

I think it depends on your circles you hang out in. You should see the looks from my smallpipers when I break into something Irish! Or God forbid, Wooden Heart!!! They seem to like the Cajun stuff and American folk, although they will only join in on the Scottish tunes. Go figure! They are pipers, after all!

[Jim Besser]

When it comes to folk music the focus is, as far as I can see, on Irish/English. This may be a dumb question for which I deserve this years stupidity prize, but what about music from Scotland and Wales? How come tunes from these places are not as prominent? Perhaps they are and I have just not noticed? Or if they are not, why not?

Around here ( Washington, DC) there is a very active Scottish traditional music community. It's wonderful, interesting music.

And I think it's getting more attention because of some great musicians who are spreading the music to a wider audience. If you want to hear an absolutely gorgeous cd, get "Fire and Grace" by Alasdair Fraser and Natalie Haas. These guys take traditional music to a whole new level.

[JimLucas]

One can agrue that concertina fits Irish music the best, Harmonica fits Blues.

One could argue till one is Blues in the face. Contrary to what some think, I would rather play!

[JimLucas]

...my problem is that I prefer Irish, Swedish, Russian, South american tunes (among others) to Danish ones. Unfortunately I have only heard few Danish traditional tunes.

...the few danish tunes I have heard just don't catch my imagination. It is really sad, but it is a fact... Perhaps, if I search more thoroughly I'll find some danish tunes that I'd like to learn to play.

Hmm. I should try to find you some stuff you might like. Which of these groups do you know, and what do you think of them?
... Lang Linken
... Haugaard & Høirup
... ULC
... Baltinget

Unfortunately we are not good at preserving our cultural heritage here in Denmark. I sense that in in the U.K. You are much more appreciative about your cultural background than we are and I envy you that.

"Preservation" doesn't continue a tradition; individuals do. You're lucky if you've missed the complaints by those in England who take part in traditional music and dance over what seems to be government efforts to stamp it out. Rumor has it that Northumbrian traditional music had almost died out when the enthusiasm of Alistair Anderson and friends started a new eruption of interest, and that now there are thousands of young people joyfully pursuing the old and creating the new.

As for the popularity of Irish music outside Ireland, a lot of that is because of Riverdance... and The Titanic. These caught people's attention; they wanted more; and they discovered that much of the "more" was even better. But if it hadn't been for these mass-media exposures, many would never have investigated. But it's also because of the way certain groups have arranged or "set" the music. My response to the many Danes who say "Danish folk music is boring" is, "So was Irish folk music before The Chieftains." Other groups too, of course, but they seem to be the first to have been noticed for doing more than "the three-chord trick". I think Danish music is waiting for its own "Chieftains" and "Titanic". I hope it doesn't have to wait forever.

I can't find sites where I can find danish traditional music.

Not nearly as common as Irish, but they do exist. I'll get back to you on that.

As for Scottish, there is in fact a lot, and it's pretty popular, though often it's lumped with Irish and other stuff under the name "Celtic". Swedish traditional music is also very popular both in Sweden and in "folk" circles outside Sweden, but so far the British-American mass media seem to have missed it. Maybe this is good.

[bill_mchale]

To pick up on your question; all three Celtic countries have very good traditional music, but I believe that the tradition has been strongest in Ireland, followed by Scotland, then Wales. The experts will correct me if I'm wrong, but in terms of continued traditions, Wales might even be behind England, in fourth place (I base this comment on strong regional English traditions, rather than the country as a whole). Note; the other Celtic countries also have strong traditions; from memory there are 7 Celtic countries in total.

Was the tradition always stronger in Ireland than Scotland or Wales, or did more musicians take their music to U.S.A., England, Australia etc. when they emigrated? Music and culture is the one thing that you can take with you. We Anglo-Saxons have not had to take our music anywhere for hundreds of years; maybe this is why most of the population seems indifferent towards it. Contrast this with immigrants from Africa, Caribbean, Asia; they bring their music and dances with them, for the rest of us to appreciate.

Well its obvious, the Irish Tradition is more prominent because Irish Music is the best in the world

Actually a little more seriously, I think two factors can really describe what happened in Ireland.

The first is that the Irish Diaspora has been so large Scotlands is reasonablely sized, but still much smaller and the Welsh... well not sure how many there are, but my general impression is that it was not that large. There are far more people who feel a connection to Ireland living outside or Ireland than in it. A lot of these people look at the music as a connection to the land of their ancestors.

The second issue was/is Irish Nationalism. Unlike Scotland or Wales, Ireland never felt comfortable with British Rule. Along with Gaelic, music and dance were ways that the Irish could express their Irish identity.

--
Bill

[bill_mchale]

Sorry, deleted a double post caused by network problems.
Bill

Edited by bill_mchale, 01 April 2006 - 02:56 AM.

[bill_mchale]

To pick up on your question; all three Celtic countries have very good traditional music, but I believe that the tradition has been strongest in Ireland, followed by Scotland, then Wales. The experts will correct me if I'm wrong, but in terms of continued traditions, Wales might even be behind England, in fourth place (I base this comment on strong regional English traditions, rather than the country as a whole). Note; the other Celtic countries also have strong traditions; from memory there are 7 Celtic countries in total.

Was the tradition always stronger in Ireland than Scotland or Wales, or did more musicians take their music to U.S.A., England, Australia etc. when they emigrated? Music and culture is the one thing that you can take with you. We Anglo-Saxons have not had to take our music anywhere for hundreds of years; maybe this is why most of the population seems indifferent towards it. Contrast this with immigrants from Africa, Caribbean, Asia; they bring their music and dances with them, for the rest of us to appreciate.

Well its obvious, the Irish Tradition is more prominent because Irish Music is the best in the world

Actually a little more seriously, I think two factors can really describe what happened in Ireland.

The first is that the Irish Diaspora has been so large Scotlands is reasonablely sized, but still much smaller and the Welsh... well not sure how many there are, but my general impression is that it was not that large. There are far more people who feel a connection to Ireland living outside or Ireland than in it. A lot of these people look at the music as a connection to the land of their ancestors.

The second issue was/is Irish Nationalism. Unlike Scotland or Wales, Ireland never felt comfortable with British Rule. Along with Gaelic, music and dance were ways that the Irish could express their Irish identity.

--
Bill

[Charlotte]

Which of these groups do you know, and what do you think of them?
... Lang Linken
... Haugaard & Høirup
... ULC
... Baltinget

I knew Lang Linken. The others I didn't know. I have found their homepages now, and both the Haugaard & and Højrup and the Baltinget sites have some downloads. I like their music. Hmmm, it seems that I have some new CD's to buy! Thanks Jim.

[Chris Timson]

I'll check them out as well, thanks Jim. Such Danish music as I have heard, mostly at the SSI, I have really liked. Good strong tunes, less decorated than the Swedish and very appealing to the English palate. Of course, the foregoing is based on a small and probably unrepresentative sample, but it'll be fun to see how right or otherwise I am.

Chris

[Woody]

The second issue was/is Irish Nationalism. Unlike Scotland or Wales, Ireland never felt comfortable with British Rule.

Can of worms opened?

[Nigel]

Unlike Scotland or Wales, Ireland never felt comfortable with British Rule. --
Bill

Where on earth did you get this from? You would be lynched if you suggested this in either Wales or Scotland. There is a very strong nationalist tradition in both countries, which extends far beyond the votes gained by Plaid Cymru and the SNP. You only have to witness the reaction of any Scot or Welshman to a sporting contest involving England - if a combined team of the Taliban, the Khymer Rouge and Milosevic's fascists were playing, they would still want England to lose. Here in Northern Ireland even the Protestants (i.e. loyalist/British) are anti English. The worms are wiggling out of the can.