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Does Anyone Own A Holmwood Concertina


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#19 Dark_Templar

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 08:16 AM

Oh and with regards to tolerance.

I am actually a very tolerant person. Not just because I have to be, but because I am. I am saying this because I am actually Jewish, and my religion largely makes me who I am. Judaism teaches us to be tolerent.

Now, before anyone says anything about "Oh, now he's bringing religion into it" let me say this. I am tolerant of everyone, whatever their stance.

I have friends, neighbours and work collueges of all religions, credances etc, and I get on with them very well. I have Gay friends, straight friends and bi friends. I tolerate everyone, and treat people with respect. What I don't tolerate is being spoken to like I am an idiot, or to be told that as a novice I should take whatever comments are given to me with humbleness.

So I know intolerance, and disrespect, and I abhore it. Now the above might not be relevent, I'm sure it's probably not, but I felt that I should say it anyway.

All I did was to ask a some simple questions. I only wanted simple, straight answers. I don't see why I am in the wrong to be offended with the quip about sawing down trees, killing the sheep and tanning their hides. I didn't ask about that, so why was it necessary for this to have been brought up.

Yes, OK, Oldnikilby offered to let me come to his home to show me the instrument, which is very good of him. Had he just answered my other question by saying that the ends were done by Computer CNC, I wouldn't have been offended, and none of this would have occured. The above puts him in bad light, because it was just so unecessary.

I admit that I can be brash, but I feel that the answers I have had have been rude, flippant and to be honest, have put me off asking any of you older players anything else.

You have just put a new player off seeking advise from you, and I hope you are blooming well happy.

There may be some friendlier players out there. If there are I would like to hear from you.

And I do think that some of the attitudes about what instrument I should buy are snobby! What's actually so great about buying an instrument made many decades ago, as opposed to a new one.

Ok, so the wood has had time to mellow with that age. Virtually every old instrument I have seen on Ebay, and even on the websites have seen better years. The restored ones might be clean, and have new leather, but the wood still looks like it has seen better days.

I really can't see how I can justify spending 1500 upwards on an instrument that

1) I have no idea how its really been looked after.
2) Comes without any real garantee of quality - just because it's old doesn't mean its good.
3) What actually makes these things worth that much? I could buy a "new" motorcycle for this kind of money, and a bike is a much more justifiable item, as it would allow me to get to work faster, allow me to get places I couldn't normally get to, and best of all, allows me to get there quickly and cheaply.

Like I have said. I am cancelling my membership. I may only be a youngster, but I obviously made a mistake of expecting good answers from you.

this topic is closed.

Edited by Dark_Templar, 10 February 2006 - 08:18 AM.


#20 Richard Morse

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 08:43 AM

The question about how the ends are done is relevant because if I were to spend 3500 pounds, on anything, I would like to know how it is made. The reason I wanted to know is because if it was hand done, I would have said something along the lines of WOW!

"Wow" because you think that is expensive - or inexpensive - considering the way the ends are made? I'm just curious. I think that your wanting to know how such an expensive thing is made is *very* relevant.

While hand-made things can be valued for their craft, that doesn't necessarily mean that such a product is technically better than machine-made or perform or look better than machine-made (or worse for that matter). I'm not holding one or the other method on a pedestal nor panning either - just making the note.

I've visited with Hamish at his shop and have talked with him about this concertina design and construction - so have a reasonable idea of what he's doing.... Although this was several years ago, if I remember correctly, his ends (not the end frames, just the flatish part where all the buttons are) are cut from a single chunk of hardwood by a computer-controlled milling machine to get the arching and undercut, button holes, endbolt holes, thumbstrap and pinkyrest holes... and all the holes for the "comma-fernleaf" design. THEN he spends several hours using a fretsaw machine "hand" cutting each of the tails of each of the commas.

The results are impressive (no sarcasm intended!).

Edited by Richard Morse, 10 February 2006 - 08:48 AM.


#21 Dark_Templar

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 08:48 AM

Sorry Richard, you've lost me there.

The only term I understood was the fretsaw. The only wood working I have done was more for building construction.

Give me a chisel, a hammer and a saw and I can make you a fairly decent Mortis and Tenon joint.

As I said, I wanted to know because the end pieces are simply amazing. It doesn't bother me if its done by hand or machine, I simply wanted to know.

And I would have said WOW because if it had been done by hand, then the guy could teach people how to hand pierce wood.

Edited by Dark_Templar, 10 February 2006 - 08:49 AM.


#22 Dark_Templar

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 08:55 AM

Also, I agree with you Richard.

Hand made over machine made can be better, but not always. My father actually owns a kit built Live Steam train of the L.N.E.R. Mallard.

Now, the steam train club he belongs to is rather funny. Most of the old guys there are time served and seasoned engineers. They look down on the kit builders, because the kit builders haven't built their steam train from scratch using metal leathes, etc etc etc.

The thing is, my dad's kit built train not only looks better proportionally, but pulls more, due to the fact it has a lot more power. It is the same guage as theirs, 5 inch guage. So a mass produced item like our steamer, where all the parts are standardised and cut by CNC, has shown itself to be better then the engineers hand built, hand crafted machine.

But this doesn't mean that everything done using computers is better.

Edited by Dark_Templar, 10 February 2006 - 08:56 AM.


#23 Richard Morse

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 08:58 AM

The only term I understood was the fretsaw.

The entire ends of his concertinas are done automatically by machine except for that he hand cuts the tails on the commas (or teardrop shapes) by hand. The machine cuts the "head" (circle, hole) part of the comma and he cuts out the tails with a fretsaw.

And I would have said WOW because if it had been done by hand, then the guy could teach people how to hand pierce wood.

And I'm pleased to find appreciative people. Many take such things for granted. Not only does he do that part by hand but also that he designed the pattern to be that way.

Edited by Richard Morse, 10 February 2006 - 08:59 AM.


#24 Dark_Templar

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 09:05 AM

Lovely. You've given me the kind of answers I wanted in the first place.

Thanks Richard. I just asked my dad, and after reading your reply to him, explained in more oor less the exact words you just typed

:D

cheers.

#25 Paul Read

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 09:34 AM

Hi there again everyone.

My father and I have also had a look at Holmwood, having had a CD and the price (3525).


Is that really the price for a Holmwood? You can get a nice old Aeola for significantly less (at least GBP1000)


What? No comments on my price question? Ah well.................

#26 m3838

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 01:46 PM

Holmwood Musical doesn't appear to be online.
There was one 8 sided English in the Button Box some time ago.
3K GBP is enormous price. It is a cost of nice upright Yamaha and few years of tuition.

To Templar:
21st century talk is noncense, esp. for someone engaged in archaic philosophy, teaching it's deciples humility. Age talk is also noncense for someone who wants to learn sea chanties.
The "Jew" talk is noncense because I'm also jewish, but I'm an atheist.
I guess, I should have edited my "Tolerance" remark and you can be tolerant, but still over sensitive. Humility is probably the best approach. I guess the main question that must torment a decent person is "what if I'm wrong?".
If you're so sencitive, oh well. Just cope with it. I have no remedy, unfortunately.

And there is no need to contact admin or whatever deity in virtual space.
Don't want to be here, don't be.
But I'd say, just come down, there is abandance of good info here and it is the only place for concertina players to communicate and feel like they are normal. Everywhere else you'll strain your tongue, explaining the difference between your child accordion and the tiny bagpipe with buttons, or saying 'no' to every child asking if he/she can try it (while holding the icecream, of course).

Edited by m3838, 10 February 2006 - 05:21 PM.


#27 Dark_Templar

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 02:46 PM

?

Ok....

Please don't tell me that I can't contact Admin.... FFS, if I want to ask them something that is my business. If you are a member of the Admin, then my query should be kept confidential. If your Jewish, your Jewish, if your an athiest, your an athiest.

I'm not overly sensetive, I just don't like being given answers that can be contrued as sarcastic, when I have taken the time to ask you people something, all you have to do is give me a decent answer. Now, what I think is going on is that you either don't like youngsters, or you don't like novices, or both.

Can you tell me why the answers I have been given to my questions have been totally off the topic of the question itself?

As to the comment by Paul, I said in the other thread I started that I would prefer to buy new, not old.

Everything I have ever bought second hand, has turned out to have something wrong with it. Therefore, I would rather buy new.

All I meant was that the way you lot have beein saying that I should be grateful/gracious about any "advise" no matter how freely given, is reminisent of the old class system.

Shall I put my knuckle to my forehead and say "Thankee very much, Sirah"

Would you all talk the same way to someone your own age, or is it because I am only 22?


P.S. Someone contacted me today to tell me that they also thought that some of the comments made to me have been rather rude and flippant.

Edited by Dark_Templar, 10 February 2006 - 02:51 PM.


#28 Dark_Templar

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 02:57 PM

Oh yes, if I can buy an Ealoa for that kind of money, please point one out to me.

Every Wheatstone, Lachanel and Crane concertina I have found on the internet for sale have gone for at least 1250, most going upto 1650 - 1750.

Old concertinas don't go cheap, unless they are either 20 button ones, or ones fit only for extensive restoration. Any decent one goes for an over inflated price.

With regards to what I was getting at earlier about the obscene amounts of money.

I'll pose a question to you.

Would you go and spend 3500 on something, lets say as an example, a T.V., without finding out anything about it.

You wouldn't just go into a Shop, and go "I'll have that one", with checking things like

> How many Scart Sockets it has
> It's picture quality
> It's sound quality

Etc. would you??? the same goes for the concertina.

#29 Dark_Templar

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 03:00 PM

Oh and another thing.

Why would you say that the Holmwood is expensive at 3500.

a NEW Wheatstone cost about the same, and Unlike Wheatstone, I'd get the instrument within a few months, rather than 4 odd years.

So, if I had the 3500, I'd rather buy the Holmwood over a new Wheatstone simply on the basis that I'd get it sooner.

Edited by Dark_Templar, 10 February 2006 - 03:01 PM.


#30 Paul Read

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 03:01 PM

?

As to the comment by Paul, I said in the other thread I started that I would prefer to buy new, not old.

Everything I have ever bought second hand, has turned out to have something wrong with it. Therefore, I would rather buy new.



Oops sorry, I didn't realise I was supposed to be reading a few threads in tandem. It still looks a lot of money given the current market in English concertinas

#31 Dark_Templar

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 03:02 PM

?

As to the comment by Paul, I said in the other thread I started that I would prefer to buy new, not old.

Everything I have ever bought second hand, has turned out to have something wrong with it. Therefore, I would rather buy new.



Oops sorry, I didn't realise I was supposed to be reading a few threads in tandem. It still looks a lot of money given the current market in English concertinas


I didn't ask you to, but you have read the other thread & posts, because you sent me a lovely e-mail asking me to be more conciderate to the other members.

the current market in English concertinas? What is the current market like at the moment then.... It seems almost non existant to someone who is new to the whole squeezebox thing.

Edited by Dark_Templar, 10 February 2006 - 03:04 PM.


#32 Paul Read

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 03:14 PM

[
I didn't ask you to, but you have read the other thread & posts, because you sent me a lovely e-mail asking me to be more conciderate to the other members.

the current market in English concertinas? What is the current market like at the moment then.... It seems almost non existant to someone who is new to the whole squeezebox thing.


I don't remember sending that e-mail - must be getting old. I can't even find the other thread.

Well, new English concertinas with concertina reeds are pretty much restricted to Wheatstones, Holmwood and Suttners as far as I know. A Suttner is 4650 Euros (about GBP3200) - hey that's not much less!!

I guess it tells me the value is in the second hand market

#33 Paul Read

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 03:50 PM

Oh yes, if I can buy an Ealoa for that kind of money, please point one out to me.


If you don't mind a second-hand instrument (which you say you have said you do) Chris Algar at Barleycorn has a few Aeolas in the GBP2,000 to 2500 range I believe. The comparable one to a Holmwood (in size and range) would be a tenor treble and these are generally in the 2.5k range.

Regarding your other comments, I'm not sure anyone has questioned you wanting to get more information before buying. I think we'd all say that is sensible and logical.

Edited by Paul Read, 10 February 2006 - 03:54 PM.


#34 Chris Ghent

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 09:44 PM

Dark Templar

It is hard to get a perspective on age when one is young, and annoying to have older people intimate that because they have been both young and old they therefore understand more than you who is only young.

There is no quick way to reach their perspective. What I suggest is you keep a copy of this interchange for about thirty years and then re-read it. The appreciation gained will be considerable, just don't try to comunicate it to anyone younger...

Chris

#35 Dark_Templar

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 04:42 AM

I chuckled when I read the last post.

Just because I am young doesn't mean I can only interact with others my own age. I get on with my dad's friends as well as any of my own. Lol, I'm not trying to get your goat or anything, but when most of you were young, caning was still allowed etc. Now, I'm not saying that because it isn't I am a hoodie ruffian thug, because I'm not. I'm just a decent chap trying to get enough money to pay the bills, go out occasionally etc.

My father spoke to the Guy at Barleycorn, who also sells concertinas on Ebay under the name of Cocoa111. This was to do with a Wheatstone my father saw on Ebay. He phoned up to ask about it, as Barleycorn deal with second hand ones, and it turned out it was one that the guy @ B/C had restored, and was selling.

If you lot really think I should go for a second hand one, then I'll concider it, but what do I do, or can I do, if the thing turns our to be crap, or I don't like it.

Edited by Dark_Templar, 11 February 2006 - 04:50 AM.


#36 Dark_Templar

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 04:54 AM

What I also meant by the caning remark was that things have changed conciderably since the 50's and 60's. Most of you had a broader education then nowadays. I know that my History lessons at School, over the last 7 years of it, could have taught me more then Roman history & World War 2. I would have liked to have learnt about our country.

So I'm not having a dig. Just pointing out that things were totally different for you when you were my age. Hey, some of you lot were lucky enough to be in your early 20's during the 60's.




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